Question about Alchemist / Investigator interactions.

[Ruke Unlimited]

I'm making an Empiricist Investigator, 20 int skill monkey type character, and the two level dip into mind chemist is too good to pass up. But I do have a few questions.

1. If I take Infusion at level 2 from the Alchemist class, can I apply the infusion to my Investigator extracts? Likewise if I take, say, combine extracts as a Investigator, could I combine my Alchemist extracts?

2. Since it comes from two different class features, if I take the Mutagen discovery, and I imbibe a cognatogen (say, for int) and a mutagen (say, for dex) at the same time? Does this bypass the 1 mutagen in effect at a time clause?

And a question on a slightly different subject

Would the Inspired weapon ability be applicable to a Launching Crossbow? It seems like an oversight (the fact that the Launching X-Bow isn't a simple weapon actually seems like an oversight, but I digress). It seems like it applies to weapons that the Investigator might be proficient with, but hasn't been erratad to include that specific X-Bow. Followup question - would the conserving weapon trait return my Alchemist bombs, as well as any other ammo (tanglefoot bag, alchemist fire, etc...) to me should I, somehow, miss the targeted square?

[Ruke Unlimited]

Bump

[Chess Pwn]

2)You can still only benefit from one at a time, even if you have two different sources of the ability, it's still the same ability.

1)No, it's applying to that classes extracts (spells)

unless the Launching Crossbow is simple it cannot have inspired.

conserving only works with the ammo for the weapon you're using.

I'm not sure taking 2 levels is worth the +5 to knowledge skills. Just take Irori's deific obedience feat and get a +4 and call it good enough? You're delaying the good investigator stuff a lot by that dip.

[Ruke Unlimited]

Chess Pwn wrote:

2)You can still only benefit from one at a time, even if you have two different sources of the ability, it's still the same ability.

1)No, it's applying to that classes extracts (spells)

unless the Launching Crossbow is simple it cannot have inspired.

conserving only works with the ammo for the weapon you're using.

I'm not sure taking 2 levels is worth the +5 to knowledge skills. Just take Irori's deific obedience feat and get a +4 and call it good enough? You're delaying the good investigator stuff a lot by that dip.

What does the character miss out on/delay with the two levels (starting at level 7, mind you)? They don't get any new abilities, and only miss out on the capstone for Empiricist which is only ok to begin with, and 1d6 studied strike damage for a character that is only going to be meh at dealing damage anyway. In exchange for that I get brew potion, throw anything, +5 to all knowledge skills, and the ability to make cognatogens, something the Empiricist can never take regardless (but which has the potential to be much more useful to him than a mutagen). The boon for the two level dip far outweighs the penalties I suffer from not taking Empiricist all the way to level 20, imho.

Forgive me if I come off as rude there, it's not my intention. I honestly don't understand why the two level dip would be a negative in any way.

Aside from that, you say that you can only benefit from one mutagen at a time because although they are different sources it's still the same ability. Wouldn't the same be true of the Alchemy ability and applying any discoveries to each class? It's the same ability, so shouldn't the discoveries apply to either?

Something that didn't occur to me before, even if you can't have two mutagens, or a mutagen and a cognatogen in effect at the same time, could you prepare one of each - one from each class - since the ability says you can only have one in existence at a time, but you get it from two different sources?

The launching crossbow is considered an exotic weapon (for some reason), but inspired is also applicable to hand crossbows, rapiers, shortbows, short swords, and sword canes - all weapons that an investigator/alchemist would use. The reason I'm asking about the launching crossbow specifically is because I believe that the weapon was released after Inspired was created and the ability was never erratad. So I'm asking from a non-strict rules standpoint, what other players/gms would allow from that ability, and whether or not most would make it available.

The weapon I'm using would be the launching crossbow, so the question applies to that weapon. would the conserving weapon trait return my Alchemist bombs, as well as any other ammo (tanglefoot bag, alchemist fire, etc...) to me should I, somehow, miss the targeted square? It only specifically talks about arrows and bolts, so I'm unclear as to whether or not this ability would function properly (and leave my alchemist stuff unharmed).

[Chess Pwn]

You're missing out on +1 attack and damage from your studied combat. you're missing out on 3rd level extracts. And an investigator talent. You're also quite delayed on getting further levels of extracts. When you get 3rd you'd otherwise be 1 level away from 4th.

Now do I think it's a horrible dip? No. If it really meets what you want your character to do then it's the perfect dip. I'm personally not seeing what the benefit would be over taking 1 feat. Cognatogens do physical stat damage, so they aren't good to use if you plan on using that stat in combat later, and can't be up at the same time as mutagen, so I'm not sure what'd be so good about having it. Brew potions, can't really rate, I play PFS where you don't get it and get extra bombs. I personally wouldn't throw anything when I have a weapon to use in combat. So I'm seeing the dip as 2 levels to get +5 to all knowledge checks. Which you can get 4 from one feat and +2 from another depending on race and age.

No, you have two instances of the same ability, and they are completely separate.

It's like a wizard/arcanist. The arcanist can use a point to increase his spells DC, but this is only for arcanist spell slots. The wizard can add bonus damage to his evocation spells, but only the wizard ones. Having discoveries only modify the class that the discoveries are for unless otherwise said.

Yes, you'd have two separate mutagen abilities, each can only have one at a time. But in there it says that if you drink another alchemist's mutagens they don't stack. That's why they don't stack for your two classes.

Launching isn't in there, so I wouldn't. Many lists, unfortunately, are set and only modified if something says later it's added to the list.

Ammunition is a game term and has a limited meaning, it's stuff listed in the ammunition tables of gear.

[Ruke Unlimited]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Ammunition is a game term and has a limited meaning, it's stuff listed in the ammunition tables of gear.

Thanks for your replies.

So, even though the launching crossbow uses splash weapons as it's ammunition, those don't count as ammunition according to the conserving weapon ability?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abil ities/conserving

Or would it return the tanglefoot bags, alchemist fire, etc... but not the alchemist bombs, since they would be considered a class ability, rather than a splash weapon?

[thorin001]

Chess Pwn wrote:

You're missing out on +1 attack and damage from your studied combat. you're missing out on 3rd level extracts. And an investigator talent. You're also quite delayed on getting further levels of extracts. When you get 3rd you'd otherwise be 1 level away from 4th.

Now do I think it's a horrible dip? No. If it really meets what you want your character to do then it's the perfect dip. I'm personally not seeing what the benefit would be over taking 1 feat. Cognatogens do physical stat damage, so they aren't good to use if you plan on using that stat in combat later, and can't be up at the same time as mutagen, so I'm not sure what'd be so good about having it. Brew potions, can't really rate, I play PFS where you don't get it and get extra bombs. I personally wouldn't throw anything when I have a weapon to use in combat. So I'm seeing the dip as 2 levels to get +5 to all knowledge checks. Which you can get 4 from one feat and +2 from another depending on race and age.

No, you have two instances of the same ability, and they are completely separate.

It's like a wizard/arcanist. The arcanist can use a point to increase his spells DC, but this is only for arcanist spell slots. The wizard can add bonus damage to his evocation spells, but only the wizard ones. Having discoveries only modify the class that the discoveries are for unless otherwise said.

Yes, you'd have two separate mutagen abilities, each can only have one at a time. But in there it says that if you drink another alchemist's mutagens they don't stack. That's why they don't stack for your two classes.

Launching isn't in there, so I wouldn't. Many lists, unfortunately, are set and only modified if something says later it's added to the list.

Ammunition is a game term and has a limited meaning, it's stuff listed in the ammunition tables of gear.

I wouldn't be too sure about the Wizard not adding bonus damage to his Arcanist spells. Arcanist specifically says that exploits only apply to Arcanist spells. Wizard has no such limiting language. And then there is this FAQ

[Ruke Unlimited]

thorin001 wrote:

And then there is this FAQ

So, if you use that FAQ as a reference, alchemist discoveries would in fact apply to investigator talents, and vice versa?

[thorin001]

Ruke Unlimited wrote:

thorin001 wrote:

And then there is this FAQ

So, if you use that FAQ as a reference, alchemist discoveries would in fact apply to investigator talents, and vice versa?

Yes.

Unlike most FAQs which the PDT says are to be used only for the specific circumstances described, this one gives the general rule.

But someone could say that the FAQ does not apply because extracts are not spell casting.