
Dexion1619 |
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I'll apologize in advance, this post might become a be a bit long-winded and technical. This is essentially just a "Wish List" of game mechanic's I'd like to see involving the combat system.
I have played most of the d20 systems that feature Firearms and other High Tech weapons at one point or another, so I thought it would be a good idea to highlight some of the Pro's and Con's of various design choices I have noticed over the years.
Damage
d20 Future went even higher (unfortunately, d20 Future wasn't incredibly well balanced, but did have some really nice ideas on weapon modification, more on that later).
These damage values felt right to me then, and they still do now. A Laser/Plasma/Rail weapon dealing less damage than a Longbow is just very wrong.
Recoil
Some weapons should have greater recoil, while others should have little or none. This can be used as an additional balancing factor when designing weapons of various power.
An example method of representing Recoil: Let's say, that weapons with a recoil rating suffer a penalty equal too that rating on any subsequent attacks beyond the first in a round. A user can negate this penalty by an amount equal too there Strength Modifier. Additionally, allowing a wielder to increase their STR modifier by +1 for using 2 hands would make logical sense.
Continuing this example, lets say we have two weapons. The first is a Laser Pistol with a base damage of 1d10+1 and a Recoil score of 0. The Laser Pistol can be used by anyone without taking any penalties on subsequent attacks after the first. Alternatively, a Plasma Pistol is more powerful, Dealing 2d8 damage, but with a Recoil score of 2. User's without a 14 Strength will find it difficult to control in one hand (although by using 2 hands someone with a 12 Strength can manage it).
This makes logical sense, and also allows for a wider variation in weapons. Instead of every hero choosing a weapon based on only it's damage value, other factors are taken into consideration.
A character who want's to wield a pair of pistols might be better off choosing lighter models with less recoil (instead of simply picking whatever has the highest damage die), while a character that intends too carry only a single pistol might prefer the extra damage.
Shotguns
Weapon Modification, Accessories and Aiming
I would also Like to see some rules for spending a Move Action to Aim (granting a bonus on the attack roll, but limiting you're rate of fire). This is NOT something that should be locked behind a feat, but should instead be written into the new rules (A Feat that makes you better at it would be fine).
Weapon Accessories are something else we could use. A few suggestions would be.
Recoil Compensator's: Going with my recoil Idea above, this would reduce a weapons Recoil rating by 1.
Scope's: These can reduce penalties for range, as well as increase the bonus from Aiming (see above)
Holo-Sighs: These can reduce the time needed to Aim too a Swift action, or perhaps simply provide a static bonus to hit.
I would be interested in hearing what people think?

Torbyne |
I lot a like of your points there. Something that i thought was off in the tech guide was that all of those high tech weapons barely did more damage than base weapons. And having most of them be energy weapons in a game rife with energy resistances and immunities was harsh. I hope Starfinder defaults to physical damage or force, something that isnt highly resisted at least.
Recoil is sort of modeled by the restricted number of shots per turn and the additional penalties to hit based on attacks made, ie. using rapid shot with a semi-automatic weapon meant that all attacks where made at a -6. This isnt so bad when you are shooting at touch AC but at least makes an attempt to model recoil without adding in extra weapon rules, strength checks or specialized training.
I love the idea of weapon attachments and mods taking the place of a lot of enchantments. Maybe mix the two, have enchanted barrel shrouds add the flaming property but you can also choose to swap out the part for a silencing shroud or a distance shroud.
I am curious how they will handle things like fully automatic weapons or squad support weapons. Something like a built in clustered shots rule?

Torbyne |
I think the lethality of small arms is better illustrated with a higher critical multiplier, which is how PF does it already. And only really high caliber guns should have lots of damage dice IMO.
The critical multiplier is more of a result of being exotic i would think. 20/x4 is one of the standard exotic weapon ranges after all, being a step beyond a martial battleax. It is also such a rare occurrence that it is very poor to simulate how deadly firearms actually are. I dont want to derail that greatly but there is a whole lot, i mean a really big number here, that goes into firearm efficacy and bore size is a bad way to try modeling that. A more accurate and yet still massively simplified look at gun damage would be kinetic energy transferred from bullet to body and caliber or bore size has very little to do with that. The real problem for any sort of "realism" (aside from D20 games being horrible for modeling real world physics) is that armor in an advanced technology setting should stop most attacks cold but anything that penetrates armor should be almost immediately fatal to a baseline human.
I am not sure if i want to see the game try to model different ammunition effects for armor piercing, expanding, incendiary, explosive etc. etc. But it could be kind of fun (on hit this deals 2D6 fire in addition to weapon damage, when using this ammo type treat targets hardness as 10 points less but suffer -5 to all damage rolls...)

IonutRO |

There are more martial x4 weapons than are exotic ones (discounting firearms).
And I highly disagree, a critical hit is what happens when you hit a vital area such as the head or lungs, while the normal dice of a weapon represent hits to non vital locations and, when rolling low damage, glancing hits.

Torbyne |
Well, to each their own. For me, a 20/x4 is a horrible way of representing something like the effect of a hollow point bullet impacting an unarmored target's torso. I would rather depict is as something like a base damage value for the weapon (2D4 light pistol, 2D6 one handed pistol, etc) and then the threat range, multiplier and other riding effects are values of ammunition. But that does make for a much more complex system.

GreyWolfLord |

What I'd like to see is scaling damage.
Perhaps it's a class power, or perhaps a feat selection.
But I'd like to see ways where someone who gets better with ranged weapons also deals more damage with those weapons.
For example, perhaps you have Weapon Focus, but it also deals a x2 damage modifier when you hit as well. Then you have Greater Weapon Focus which deals a x3 Damage modifier.
Or perhaps as a Rogue's sneak attack goes up as they level, a Martials ranged weapon damage goes up by multipliers as they level.
Perhaps with other additional options as well, such as stunning on a hit if you roll so much greater than the required amount, or paralyzing someone if you choose and roll an amount over a certain threshold.
Things that give martials that used ranged weapons something that can bring them up to the level of higher level spellcasters as the Martials gain higher levels as well.
I think sci-fi ranged weapons with the various things that have been associated with them in sci-fi in general could be an excellent way to do that.

Torbyne |
What I'd like to see is scaling damage.
Perhaps it's a class power, or perhaps a feat selection.
But I'd like to see ways where someone who gets better with ranged weapons also deals more damage with those weapons.
For example, perhaps you have Weapon Focus, but it also deals a x2 damage modifier when you hit as well. Then you have Greater Weapon Focus which deals a x3 Damage modifier.
Or perhaps as a Rogue's sneak attack goes up as they level, a Martials ranged weapon damage goes up by multipliers as they level.
Perhaps with other additional options as well, such as stunning on a hit if you roll so much greater than the required amount, or paralyzing someone if you choose and roll an amount over a certain threshold.
Things that give martials that used ranged weapons something that can bring them up to the level of higher level spellcasters as the Martials gain higher levels as well.
I think sci-fi ranged weapons with the various things that have been associated with them in sci-fi in general could be an excellent way to do that.
You made me think of the clone wars where all the troopers were basically the same clone but the more experienced ones were capable of amazing feats. There was an episode about a moon base that really highlighted this, when an experienced soldier rescues a recruit and a giant moon worm burst up from the ground the senior trooper barely turns around before he whips out a standard issue pistol and nails it in the eye, killing it in one shot. The recruit stares at the guy trying to understand how he just did that.
So yeah, i like the idea. Something like precise strike but, weapon category specific, that lets you add level to damage rolls or double level on a crit.

IonutRO |

Well, to each their own. For me, a 20/x4 is a horrible way of representing something like the effect of a hollow point bullet impacting an unarmored target's torso. I would rather depict is as something like a base damage value for the weapon (2D4 light pistol, 2D6 one handed pistol, etc) and then the threat range, multiplier and other riding effects are values of ammunition. But that does make for a much more complex system.
Who said that would be a hollow point? That would be a "normal" bullet.

Don't go into Power Dome A |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

Hitpoints are an abstract system, so taking damage from a weapon isn't necessarily even being 'hit'. The HP system doesn't model the lethality of medieval melee combat well either. Ultimately you can't have a highly lethal combat system as you'd run out of PCs.
4e had their mook system with 1 HP monsters that had level appropriate offensive capabilities that could model a more fast and furious playstyle that facilitates mowing down large numbers of opponents with single shots.
Star Wars Saga edition allowed autofire weapons to target a block of squares for unmissable partial damage, allowing massive numbers of even the weakest enemies to be a threat and tax the parties resources but could still be cut down like stormtroopers by mid-level PCs.
Ultimately whatever model is used to mimic a cinematic style where you have one shot = one kill high lethality gunplay but the heroes consistently come out alive is going to have to be handled on the back end mechanically like SW Saga or 4e and not by just making guns highly lethal by themselves.
Scaling damage by player level is obviously another way to go as someone else above suggested.

Torbyne |
Well said. There was a D20 game once where you had a dodge/miss/graze pool of HP and actual wound totals equal to your CON score, once you were out of heroic luck (HP) then all damage when to your wounds (CON score) which was far more serious and made weapons seem much deadlier. I think that was a star wars game... cant remember though.

Garbage-Tier Waifu |

All I wanna know is if going melee is not a death sentence since while you charge tbe frontline with your stun baton or some s&$+, your opponents have machineguns for hands. And eyes. And other appendages. Lots of things are improved by replacing it with only more guns...
Your opponents are gunborgs.
So basically, what madman would do that? Are they some kind of space knight? Do they have a space steed to ride into space battle against space...vikings... or something. Is a barbarian more or less useful in space? Will we finally get ranged sneak attacking implemented or are the rogue equivalent in Starfinder (we will call them Smugglers for now) even worse due to system holdover?
Time will tell.

gustavo iglesias |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Melee will be there. Being a shirtless barbarian witha battle axe won't work, but being a Jedi with a light saber, an assault terminator ultrsmarine with stormshield and thunderhammer, a cyberninjas with a monoedge power katana, a spice-infused fremen with a crysknife or a clawed 4 armed alíen with wookie level strength and predator like reflex will of course be part of the game, because they are standar tropes of the genre.

Garbage-Tier Waifu |

By Pathfinder rules and feats, you can do that already with Cut from the Air. Don't ask how it works with laser guns, it's difficult enough as is to work out how you stop a bullet with a dinner fork. Or a ballista shot, for that matter.
The Dune route would make some sense but then we wouldn't want laser guns. Those things explode when they hit force shields. Like, violently.

Boomerang Nebula |

What's wrong with cone or line effects for shotguns or automatic rifles?
Good question! I would have thought cone or line effects would be ideal for futuristic weapons in a space opera type game.
Factoring for recoil, reduced damage over range, aiming as an action and modifications to firearms are all features of GURPS (as well as a whole bunch of other rules that make firearms more realistic). I am all for realistic rules in a realistic setting but to have them in a space opera style game will just slow the game down for no benefit.

Jamie Charlan |
The Dune route would make some sense but then we wouldn't want laser guns. Those things explode when they hit force shields. Like, violently.
Since sometimes the Holtzman effect destroys the laser user along with the shield user instead of just giving us the nuclear explosion we were hoping for, you put the lasers on little drone swarms, sit back and enjoy the fireworks.
Personally I'd like to see the reverse also be true for jedi blocking,etc. Maybe a bit of a 'weapon triangle' or something to help it all make sense?
Sir Zaku the 2nd has a large heat-axe, which really doesn't much care for lasers hitting it, and is wide enough to offer some protection against some big glowy plasma ball, but suffers devastating feedback to its generator if it tries to do the same with an ion-cannon and the solid surface means some point-blank missile launch will knock it aside (we do need to figure out where that missile careened over to now, but that's just more fun).
Totallynotanakinguysiswear has a lightsaber. It can barely slice out a thin bit of plasma as the rest of the energetic death-cloud continues on. It can bounce back lasers with a good swing thanks to some technobabble shenanigans, but at the same time that means a laser can do the same to it. It probably vaporizes that micromissile warhead before it can blow, but can do nothing against shotguns.
Let melee be designed for higher penetration (give melee stuff like custard shots) and for quickly murdering things in close quarters around corners, while most people try to use ranged for obvious, basic warfare-evolution reasons. Plus now we get to figure out where in the hell the missile just ended up. Double the fun!
Boomerang Nebula: It COULD be fine; most combat in pathfinder is generally already in the first increment anyways; if you just accept that and give proper ranges for larger scales it'll still matter when sniping EDC technicians on an enemy hull at ship scales, and matter exactly as much as it did in pathfinder for most combat the rest of the time.

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All I wanna know is if going melee is not a death sentence since while you charge tbe frontline with your stun baton or some s+!%, your opponents have machineguns for hands. And eyes. And other appendages. Lots of things are improved by replacing it with only more guns...
Your opponents are gunborgs.
So basically, what madman would do that? Are they some kind of space knight? Do they have a space steed to ride into space battle against space...vikings... or something. Is a barbarian more or less useful in space? Will we finally get ranged sneak attacking implemented or are the rogue equivalent in Starfinder (we will call them Smugglers for now) even worse due to system holdover?
Time will tell.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tytiJ6AJmos/maxresdefault.jpg

Jamie Charlan |
Yeah, chances are melee commissars (as opposed to quadrupedal 10t melee rock-crushers) are about on the "exceptionally specialized build that's wasting a lot to try to catch up to everyone else" level of a 1pp-only Gunslinger.
Meanwhile the two other partymembers are clearly visible in that picture!