Can druids wild shape into variant animals?

[Ravingdork]

I'm creating this thread for FAQing purposes. The discussion thread can be found here.

Can druids wild shape into polar bears?

Polar bears recently gained a standalone stat block in the Bestiary V, which indicates that druids probably should be allowed to wild shape into that form, but on closer inspection, it is clearly just the templated bear mentioned from the first Bestiary, which is technically an illegal option per the polymorph rules.

Polymorph Rules wrote:

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.

If druids can wild shape into polar bears now, is it safe to assume that other variant animals should also be legal for polymorph spells and effects as well?

I've included a list of all of the variant animals in all of the Bestiaries for ease of reference below:

• anaconda
  
• black bear
  
• chimpanzee
  
• great white shark
  
• hammerhead shark
  
• heavy horse
  
• king cobra
  
• megaraptor
  
• orangutan
  
• plesiosaurus
  
• polar bear
  
• terror bird
  
• tiger shark
  
• velociraptor
  
• woolly mammoth

If these variant animals remain illegal, what is the justification/reasoning behind the restriction, and how should players and GMs rationalize the restriction within the in-game mythos?

[Rysky]

While stat-wise it is the same as an advanced bear, with the addition of giving it a swim speed (not mentioned in the B1 entry for advancing the Bear), and the fact that it has its own stand alone entry I would say a Druid can wildshape into them.

For the others if they just exist as an advancements on other animals and don't have their own entry I would say no.

Because advancement is just adding HD or a Template.

[Tyrant Lizard King]

Wild Shape says you can transform into ANY animal. So the things like the Anaconda or Polar Bear would be allowed IMO. This ability functions as Beast Shape spells so its stats don't really matter... its only their size and special abilities that you will be able to utilize. Great White Sharks and Emperor Cobras have their own entry so there shouldn't be any issues there.

[James Risner]

The FAQ on Eagle Shaman Druid makes it clear you can't do Young Roc or Giant Tiger, unless you are an archetype with a huge amount of your class features wasted. In other words, just Eagle Shamans can.

For the OP, polar bear is fine now that they are in B5. You still can't turn into the templated bear from the first B1.

[Tyrant Lizard King]

Most people know that those rulings are contradicting. I agree that a Huge Tiger isn't allowed because it does not exist anywhere. However, there are younger/smaller versions of everything... like a Huge Roc or a Huge T-Rex. A 14 HD Huge Constrictor Snake AKA Anaconda(which is listed in the animal entry with no templates btw) exists but not a Huge Tiger. Another example would be a crocodile... unless there is an entry for a Salty or a Nile croc, a Huge crocodile isn't mentioned as existing in the entry so you cant have a Huge Crocodile(Gustave) but you could use a smaller (Huge)Dire Crocodile to fill that hole. I understand the whole "no templates" thing but I feel that is more in place for those powerful templates that are more magical or supernatural in nature. If a larger version of the animal exists then you can wild shape into it IMO. The bottom line is, its up to our best judgment until Paizo clarifies the whole Roc/Eagle Shaman debate. My stance is; if it makes sense, is more fun for players and isn't unbalanced or game breaking then Im all for it.

[James Risner]

They clarified it.

With a FAQ saying you can't do this, but we are going to deviate this once for the Eagle Shaman.

[Paulicus]

That FAQ/rule always made me sad that most animal-shaman druids don't have any forms (of certain sizes) to turn into of their given animal type.

[dragonhunterq]

Once it has a standalone entry it is not a templated creature, even if that is how they calculated the stat block. A templated creature is a bestiary creature with a template applied to it. The polar bear is (now) a bestiary creature.

And the reason for not allowing templates should be obvious, I can think of at least 3 good reasons (on reflection technically variations of 1 - power level).

What ingame reason did you use before for not allowing young rocs or advanced giant rhinos?

[Pizza Lord]

A polar bear does not appear to be an advanced bear (black or brown) nor does there seem to be a template applied to a bear (black or brown). I see nothing that indicates there's some 'polar' or 'cold-blooded' (not accurate, just flavorful) template. A polar bear is not just a modified black bear (or brown bear). Assuming you have the ability, you can change into one.

Similarly a panda or 'giant panda' (which is just a name typically used to distinguish the black and white panda from the 'red panda', not a 'giant' template) is not an advanced black bear or a template. You could become a 'panda'. You could also become a 'red panda' which is a different animal that is not an advanced form of a panda or a template that creates a 'red <animal>.' (at least there isn't one at this point, and it certainly doesn't apply to a red panda.)

Similarly an eagle and a giant eagle are two different creatures (the giant eagle is not an eagle with a 'giant' template), though one is obviously large and also a magical beast and would require a more powerful beast shape equivalent than the other. You couldn't turn into eagle with 12 HD and be a bigger eagle than normal however, even if 12 HD was an allowable advancement range for the creature.

Again, there is nothing in the typical polymorph restrictions that prevent variants, however certain variants are illegal if they are just based on advancement or templates. For example, the Dire Polar Bear is listed as a variant of a polar bear, it's illegal because Dire is a template, not because it's a variant. Pyro- and cryo- hydras are variants of a hydra (not templates as far as I can see) so you can choose one of those, however, choosing anything over the baseline, generic 5-headed version would likely be illegal since the number of heads a hydra has appears strictly based on HD advancement.

[Rysky]

Pizza Lord wrote:

A polar bear does not appear to be an advanced bear (black or brown) nor does there seem to be a template applied to a bear (black or brown). I see nothing that indicates there's some 'polar' or 'cold-blooded' (not accurate, just flavorful) template. A polar bear is not just a modified black bear (or brown bear). Assuming you have the ability, you can change into one.

As has been brought up in this thread and the other, in Bestiary 1 the Polar Bear was indeed an Advanced Bear, this changed when they printed a stand alone Polar Bear in Bestiary 5.

[Pizza Lord]

Those are just suggestions on how to get a suitably-statted creature, similar to how they say to use a dog's stats for a jackal or a coyote. If you want to believe a black bear gains some hit dice and turns into a Brown Grizzly bear and then gains a few more and makes a career choice path whether to go Panda or Polar bear, by all means, proceed with that.

[Rysky]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Those are just suggestions on how to get a suitably-statted creature, similar to how they say to use a dog's stats for a jackal or a coyote. If you want to believe a black bear gains some hit dice and turns into a Brown Grizzly bear and then gains a few more and makes a career choice path whether to go Panda or Polar bear, by all means, proceed with that.

*rolls eyes*

Those "Suggestions" are Advancements, something the Druid's Wild Shape ability is specifically called out at not being able to copy.

[Diego Rossi]

And the polar bear in Bestiary 5 isn't an advancement but a stand alone creature, perfectly suitable for beast shape 3+.

[Ravingdork]

dragonhunterq wrote:

What ingame reason did you use before for not allowing young rocs or advanced giant rhinos?

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating allowing any monster/template combo. Though I don't think it would be nearly as "out of hand" as some, I'm sure such a thing would open up some form of abuse or another. There's absolutely no reason to believe you could transform into a young rhino any more than you could a venerable rhino.

I'm advocating the allowance of variant creatures that we KNOW to exist within the rules, such as those variants found on my list in the OP.

Diego Rossi wrote:

And the polar bear in Bestiary 5 isn't an advancement but a stand alone creature, perfectly suitable for beast shape 3+.

Debatable. The developers have not weighed in yet, and many GMs out there will still see the polar bear as a templated bear, and thus will continue to outlaw it.

[wraithstrike]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Those are just suggestions on how to get a suitably-statted creature, similar to how they say to use a dog's stats for a jackal or a coyote. If you want to believe a black bear gains some hit dice and turns into a Brown Grizzly bear and then gains a few more and makes a career choice path whether to go Panda or Polar bear, by all means, proceed with that.

Nobody said anything about the animal making a choice. You not realize it but the way you are talking and changing people's words into things they didnt actually say is coming off as very condescending. Also, dire is not a template in PF. PF may decide to apply an advanced template to make a stronger version. They may also apply the advanced and giant template, or maybe the advanced template, or maybe just add HD and some extra abilities, but a template is a very specific thing. "Stronger variant" does not equal "template".

Quote:

Templates

A template is a set of rules that you apply to a monster to transform it into a different monster. All templates give precise directions on how to change a monster's statistics to transform it into the new monster.

There are no precise instructions in the official(not 3rd party) PF ruleset.

[Pizza Lord]

wraithstrike wrote:

Nobody said anything about the animal making a choice.

Exactly, at no point does a black bear suddenly gain a HD or a template and suddenly turn into a brown bear, choice or not, it doesn't happen. At no point does a brown bear gain the same HD as a polar bear or a panda bear and turn into polar bear or a panda. There is no template or advancement.

Diego Rossi wrote:

And the polar bear in Bestiary 5 isn't an advancement but a stand alone creature, perfectly suitable for beast shape 3+.

Agreed, and I am using the links from Ravingdork's post for black bear and polar bear that link with Grizzly bear, which is presumably Bestiary 1. There is no reason, now or before Bestiary 5 that you couldn't (by the rules) become a polar bear (assuming your ability allowed for a creature of that size/HD). You could turn into a goat before they added in the statistics for a goat and you can turn into a peacock (male or female) even if there isn't a specific listing for a peacock, it isn't just a giant-template songbird.

There may be a non-rules reason for disallowing a player to choose a creature that isn't statted out specifically. If you're in PFS or another regulated campaign and they don't want different GMs coming up with different (even if they are reasonably close) stats for every single viable animal in the game world that could end up varying between sessions based on personal inclinations or knowledge. Rules-wise, for the purposes of polymorph here, variant creature, like different breeds of dog or snakes, are not necessarily templates or straight advancements (though some could certainly be.)

I am going by what's linked by Ravingdork. I don't see anywhere regarding bears, that says a black bear is an advancement or template. It only says that you could use the grizzly bear with a simple template to help get an appropriate set of statistics. A goat is not a young ram, but if you didn't have stats for a goat, and you were looking for something quickly, there is a suggestion under Ram on how to get a suitable stat listing for goats or similar creatures. That doesn't mean a goat is a Simple Ram or a Young Ram any more than a ram is a Giant-template goat. If Bestiary 6 comes out with a Black bear entry and an entry for... corgis or poodles or rottweilers, that doesn't mean a poodle was an illegal choice, though it may have been disallowed by a GM on the basis of not wanting to stat out every iteration of dog breeds or whether a certain breed of dog gets a racial bonus to tracking or has better hearing than another.

Having the polar bear stat-block listed certainly will help to make such a creature more likely to be accepted as a choice, but there is nothing that rules-wise prevents it before Bestiary 5, other than slowing down a game and having to create a stat-block for it. If the Devs want to disallow it based on something else, like balance or the sheer depth of potential creature choices, then that's not really a rules reason as much as a balance reason and that should be stated directly.

As such, looking through the list that Ravingdork has on variants, I don't see any that would be specifically illegal as choices as far as the rules for polymorph effects that he's asking about. I could see to not allowing them based on time or ease-of-play consideration during a session to avoid longer conversations about what special qualities it might have beyond stats and HD, like "I turn into an [breed of dog] that can hold its breath as long as a turtle' as opposed to 'It's a smaller weaker breed of dog.'

Also, clicked FAQ, of course.