Snakes and wildshape

[Diego Rossi]

PRD wrote:

The constrictor snake presented here is a relatively small one. You can create stats for a larger maneater like an anaconda by applying the advanced and giant simple templates, or by advancing the stats above to a 7 HD Large snake (CR 5), or even a 14 HD Huge snake (CR 10).

....
Venomous snakes are generally far more aggressive than constrictor snakes, and even larger variants do exist: you can create stats for a king cobra, for example, by applying the advanced and giant simple templates to the stats given above.(Those are the stats of a medium sized snake)

RAW you can't wildshape or use beast shapes to turn into a templated version of a creature.

On the other hand the description of the snakes say clearly that in nature larger versions that those depicted in the bestiary exist. Those versions aren't printed in the rules simply to save space.

So how do you think it should work:
- a druid or someone using beastshape II and above can't turn into a large snake unless he can find a printed description somewhere;
- a druid or someone using beastshape II can turn into a large snake as they exist in nature.

For the RL argument:

Wikipedia wrote:

The king cobra (Ophiophagus hannah) is an elapid found predominantly in forests from India through Southeast Asia. This species is the world's longest venomous snake, with a length up to 18.5 to 18.8 ft (5.6 to 5.7 m).

[Val'bryn2]

Personally, I'ld allow it, because you aren't turning into a template creature in the sense of a variation of the standard, you are turning into a different, natural creature, that has its stats made by applying a template.

RAW, you probably can't, but it's something I'ld allow on a case by case basis.

[Threeshades]

A druid is supposed to be able to wild shape into any existing animal he/she knows. So if a given animal exists in the setting and the druid knows about this species, he/she should be able to wild shape into it.

So the GM has to make an executive decision.
1. The animal doesn't exist in the GM's setting.
2. The druid doesn't know about it.
3. The GM let's the player wild shape into the templated version of the animal
4. The GM or the player has to homebrew an all new stat block for the animal.
5. The GM or the player homebrews a new stat block for the animal from a different similar animal's stat block. (which is no different from applying a template)

A simple template like giant or advanced is just a guide on how to quickly adjust a creature to produce a larger/more powerful version of it. The templated animal is at the end of the day just another animal stat block, who cares whether it has been generated by adding templates to another animal or by writing up an all new stat block?

The rule that you cannot wild shape into creatures with a template exists so you don't just freely customize your wild shapes or turn into a half-dragon tiger or something.

[Ravingdork]

You would still use all of the other polymorph and beast shape rules, so the only thing that would really change is size, right?

You wouldn't even have to create a new statblock for the purposes of wildshape or or other polymorph effect.

I don't know that templated creatures like those mentioned in this thread would be allowed. It seems pretty clear to me that it wouldn't fly per the RAW. However, there are some cases, where you could absolutely take the form of variant creatures. For example, a wizard could cast vermin shape to turn into a rock crab since it is not templated, even though it technically doesn't have a statblock published anywhere.

A druid would also be able to wildshape into a megaraptor instead of a deinonychus, or a terror bird (for more attacks) rather than an axe beak, in this same fashion.

EDIT: Or perhaps I'm totally wrong...

Polymorph rules wrote:

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.

[Pizza Lord]

Diego Rossi wrote:

So how do you think it should work:

- a druid or someone using beastshape II and above can't turn into a large snake unless he can find a printed description somewhere;
- a druid or someone using beastshape II can turn into a large snake as they exist in nature.

Unfortunately, it looks like you cannot turn into a larger version of a creature, if it's a template. Variants seem to be okay.

As RavingDork's quote on Polymorph seems to point out, not only are templates restricted but also advanced versions of creatures. They appear to mean it, since they also point out you are a generic member of that creature type (unless a spell allows different.)

So even if you find a printing of a python or anaconda that is is larger and more powerful, you would have to prove it's a different creature or a variant, not just an advanced version of a python or an anaconda. You could become a 2-HD version of a wolf, but you couldn't become a 4-HD version of a wold (which should technically increase to size large.) Even though wolves of that size are likely in existence and it doesn't seem that hard to gain a HD or 2, those aren't a generic version of a wolf. You can't even become a Dire Wolf (unless the spell says you can specifically), which is a stronger, larger version of a wolf since Dire is considered a template. A winter wolf would work for becoming a larger wolf (though that's a magical beast).

Similarly, you could potentially become a black bear, a brown bear, or a polar bear but you couldn't polymorph into a black bear that was a big and strong as a brown bear.

Another example: there isn't a spell I was able to find quickly that would let you become a Hydra (Huge magical beast; Beast Shape IV maxes you out at large), but if you could turn into a Hydra, by the Polymorph rules you would only be able to become a 5-headed hydra (since the number of heads isn't just a variant but an actual effect of their increased HD). You could, however, choose between becoming a hydra, a cryohydra, or a pyrohydra (5-headed, since those seem the baseline) since those are variants, not templates as far as I can see from the pfsrd.

[Val'bryn2]

Pizza Lord wrote:

So even if you find a printing of a python or anaconda that is is larger and more powerful, you would have to prove it's a different creature or a variant, not just an advanced version of a python or an anaconda. You could become a 2-HD version of a wolf, but you couldn't become a 4-HD version of a wold (which should technically increase to size large.) Even though wolves of that size are likely in existence and it doesn't seem that hard to gain a HD or 2, those aren't a generic version of a wolf. You can't even become a Dire Wolf (unless the spell says you can specifically), which is a stronger, larger version of a wolf since Dire is considered a template. A winter wolf would work for becoming a larger wolf (though that's a magical beast).

Similarly, you could potentially become a black bear, a brown bear, or a polar bear but you couldn't polymorph into a black bear that was a big and strong as a brown bear.

Actually, dire isn't a template, so you can become a dire animal.

[Tyrant Lizard King]

There is a Large venomous snake listed as Snake, Emperor Cobra so that is ready to use hands down. IMO, the Constrictor Snake lists in its entry that an Anaconda can be created from its stats. That, to me, means it is an existing animal... allowing a PC to Wild Shape into that creature, Large or Huge Anaconda. Yes, it does mention "templates" but right after that it says...
"or by advancing the stats above to a 7 HD Large snake (CR 5), or even a 14 HD Huge snake (CR 10)."

There you go, no Templates... just stat advancement for new creature entries. You wont really need to figure out its stats though since the ability functions as Wild Shape... you modify your own stats (per the way you are applying the spell) and *poof* you are now this larger creature. I had a major issue with this myself and, yes, you can turn into ANY animal... but you are limited to Huge size animals. My character was a Saurian Shaman and I REALLY wanted to Wild Shape into a Tyrannosaurus, which is Gargantuan. My GM allowed me to do this but only as a smaller T-rex(Huge). My T-Rex Animal Companion was limited to Large so it only made sense right?

P.S.
I know the Allosaurus is savage af

[Pizza Lord]

Val'bryn2 wrote:

Actually, dire isn't a template, so you can become a dire animal.

Dire Creature

Not all Dire creatures follow the adjustments for the template, however, having been created prior to the Dire template. This does not mean that they don't count as being Dire creatures unless you can get some specific FAQ clarifications that details which Dire creatures aren't 'dire creatures'.

Creating a Dire Creature wrote:

“Dire” is an inherited template that can be added to any animal that is not already dire (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A dire creature retains all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Some dire creatures were not created using this template and may be the exception to the rules presented here having predated the creation of this monster template.

It's understandable, I myself didn't know it until I took the time to check before making my post (I do. I honestly do make a lot of effort before posting.) Dire Creature is considered a template. It comes up in the listing of Templates under Bestiary (I am using d20pfsrd.com currently.)

Impressively, you can see by the bolded text that the writers were considerate enough to realize that some people might be puzzled or have questions or confusion and so they took a little space to clarify why that was. (I am not kidding, I really do appreciate little details like that.) Obviously they didn't want to go back and retcon stats and errata every bestiary or AP and such for already established dire creatures.

Things like Dire Lions, Dire Bears, and Dire Rats have stats and abilities that may not seem to sync with the bonuses and changes to other creatures that were made with Dire template (Dire Bison, Dire Goats, Dire Rams, etc.) but they are still Dire animals and despite being exceptions to the typical adjustment of creatures, are still considered to be Dire creatures.

I don't try and determine intent or precognition for whether not being able to assume the form of a Dire creature (unless the ability says otherwise) was intended or desired. I can only see that unless otherwise stated, you cannot.

[wraithstrike]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Val'bryn2 wrote:

Actually, dire isn't a template, so you can become a dire animal.

Dire Creature

Not all Dire creatures follow the adjustments for the template, however, having been created prior to the Dire template. This does not mean that they don't count as being Dire creatures unless you can get some specific FAQ clarifications that details which Dire creatures aren't 'dire creatures'.

Creating a Dire Creature wrote:

“Dire” is an inherited template that can be added to any animal that is not already dire (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A dire creature retains all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Some dire creatures were not created using this template and may be the exception to the rules presented here having predated the creation of this monster template.

It's understandable, I myself didn't know it until I took the time to check before making my post (I do. I honestly do make a lot of effort before posting.) Dire Creature is considered a template. It comes up in the listing of Templates under Bestiary (I am using d20pfsrd.com currently.)

Impressively, you can see by the bolded text that the writers were considerate enough to realize that some people might be puzzled or have questions or confusion and so they took a little space to clarify why that was. (I am not kidding, I really do appreciate little details like that.) Obviously they didn't want to go back and retcon stats and errata every bestiary or AP and such for already established dire creatures.

Things like Dire Lions, Dire Bears, and Dire Rats have stats and abilities that may not seem to sync with the bonuses and changes to other creatures that were made with Dire template (Dire Bison, Dire Goats, Dire Rams, etc.) but they are still Dire animals and despite being exceptions to the typical adjustment of creatures, are still considered to be Dire...

That "dire creature as a template" quote is from a 3rd party source "ToHC".

In the official PF rules there is no dire template.

[Pizza Lord]

Which is why I stated that I am using d20pfsrd currently. If you honestly believe a black bear is just a baby brown bear or a grizzly bear that gains a few HD turns into a polar bear... I.... I don't know what I can do to help you with that.

Supposedly when demons or devils advance in power or HD they change or are granted their more powerful forms, I suppose that means assuming you had the power to take the form of an outsider it would just be a lemure because anything else is just an advanced lemure and not an imp or a marilith or a succubus. Clearly a succubus is just a lemure with a... couple templates thrown on it.

[Rysky]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Which is why I stated that I am using d20pfsrd currently. If you honestly believe a black bear is just a baby brown bear or a grizzly bear that gains a few HD turns into a polar bear... I.... I don't know what I can do to help you with that.

Supposedly when demons or devils advance in power or HD they change or are granted their more powerful forms, I suppose that means assuming you had the power to take the form of an outsider it would just be a lemure because anything else is just an advanced lemure and not an imp or a marilith or a succubus. Clearly a succubus is just a lemure with a... couple templates thrown on it.

Actually the being remade into a more powerful fiend thing is just the devil's shtick, and then it's not the bestiary advancement but actually being remade into a whole new creature. Demons don't advance like that, and you're looking at this from a very pedantic angle.

[Diego Rossi]

Tyrant Lizard King wrote:

There is a Large venomous snake listed as Snake, Emperor Cobra so that is ready to use hands down. IMO, the Constrictor Snake lists in its entry that an Anaconda can be created from its stats. That, to me, means it is an existing animal... allowing a PC to Wild Shape into that creature, Large or Huge Anaconda. Yes, it does mention "templates" but right after that it says...

"or by advancing the stats above to a 7 HD Large snake (CR 5), or even a 14 HD Huge snake (CR 10)."

There you go, no Templates... just stat advancement for new creature entries. You wont really need to figure out its stats though since the ability functions as Wild Shape... you modify your own stats (per the way you are applying the spell) and *poof* you are now this larger creature. I had a major issue with this myself and, yes, you can turn into ANY animal... but you are limited to Huge size animals. My character was a Saurian Shaman and I REALLY wanted to Wild Shape into a Tyrannosaurus, which is Gargantuan. My GM allowed me to do this but only as a smaller T-rex(Huge). My T-Rex Animal Companion was limited to Large so it only made sense right?

P.S.
I know the Allosaurus is savage af

I know about the emperor cobra. But it is the only version of a large available in the Bestiaries. No large constrictor.

Actually the emperor cobra is frightening as a result of Beast shape 3+. The DC of the poison is set by the spell, so my 8th level druid will have a DC 20 poison that do Poison, with a frequency of 1/round for 6 rounds, 1d3 Con damage ant that require 2 consecutive saves to be cured.

[Diego Rossi]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Which is why I stated that I am using d20pfsrd currently. If you honestly believe a black bear is just a baby brown bear or a grizzly bear that gains a few HD turns into a polar bear... I.... I don't know what I can do to help you with that.

Pizza, as usual you have a lack of understating of the rules.

There is no dire template in the Paizo rules. So dire creatures in Paizo Bestiaries aren't templated creatures.

Read the copyright section of d20pfsrd :

Quote:

Section 15: Copyright Notice - Tome of Horrors Complete
Dire creature template from the Tome of Horrors Complete, Copyright 2011, Necromancer Games, Inc., published and distributed by Frog God Games; Author Scott Greene.

If you meet in an adventure a creature with the dire template it mean that the adventure writer has applied the Tome of Horrors template and you can't copy it.

But if you meet a dire creature created from scratch by Paizo it is perfectly legal.

Pizza Lord wrote:

So even if you find a printing of a python or anaconda that is is larger and more powerful, you would have to prove it's a different creature or a variant, not just an advanced version of a python or an anaconda. You could become a 2-HD version of a wolf, but you couldn't become a 4-HD version of a wold (which should technically increase to size large.) Even though wolves of that size are likely in existence and it doesn't seem that hard to gain a HD or 2, those aren't a generic version of a wolf. You can't even become a Dire Wolf (unless the spell says you can specifically), which is a stronger, larger version of a wolf since Dire is considered a template. A winter wolf would work for becoming a larger wolf (though that's a magical beast).

Very simple: if the printed version has a piece of text saying that there is a applied template or it is an advanced version it is not a valid target. You know, that is normally spelled out in Paizo modules.

[Pizza Lord]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Pizza, as usual you have a lack of understating of the rules.

First off, don't insult me or my understanding of the rules when I take the time to offer my help, especially when I make it clear and take the time note what resource I currently have to work with. Not every option I have takes the time to make scrolling around or highlighting to copy-write bibliography feasible.

Stating that it's not current or citing another source is one thing. Wraithstrike's reply was perfectly reasonable and to the point and maybe you should take an example from that the next time you feel the need to belittle someone. I won't tolerate anything beyond that.

You asked whether you could turn into a creature that was advanced or was a template, the answer is obviously no. If a dire animal isn't a template in your game, then it is fair game. If you have some rule, somewhere that states that a king snake is an advanced water moccassin or an anaconda with a young template and and an added poison ability, then it also is illegal.

[Rysky]

Then try offering that "help" without talking down to or demeaning others and maybe, juts maybe, they won't do the same to you, eh?

[Diego Rossi]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

Pizza, as usual you have a lack of understating of the rules.

First off, don't insult me or my understanding of the rules when I take the time to offer my help, especially when I make it clear and take the time note what resource I currently have to work with. Not every option I have takes the time to make scrolling around or highlighting to copy-write bibliography feasible.

Stating that it's not current or citing another source is one thing. Wraithstrike's reply was perfectly reasonable and to the point and maybe you should take an example from that the next time you feel the need to belittle someone. I won't tolerate anything beyond that.

You asked whether you could turn into a creature that was advanced or was a template, the answer is obviously no. If a dire animal isn't a template in your game, then it is fair game. If you have some rule, somewhere that states that a king snake is an advanced water moccassin or an anaconda with a young template and and an added poison ability, then it also is illegal.

Pizza Lord wrote:

If you honestly believe a black bear is just a baby brown bear or a grizzly bear that gains a few HD turns into a polar bear... I.... I don't know what I can do to help you with that.

You reap what you sow.

And saying that you show a lack of understanding of the rules isn't an insult. You regularly fail at collating the different rules.

Why you use d20pfsrd if the PRD is easily available?
And if you use d20pfsrd why you don't check the small print to be sure that you are citing Paizo rules?

A reply that say "Paizo rules are these if you use Necromancer Games, Inc rules" isn't really useful.

[Pizza Lord]

First, I'll address your questions as best I can. It's your thread but I don't want to see it diverted from the topic, which is a legitimate and good question.

Diego Rossi wrote:

Why you use d20pfsrd if the PRD is easily available?

And if you use d20pfsrd why you don't check the small print to be sure that you are citing Paizo rules?

Possible reasons could be::

• Because small print becomes really really small print sometimes when you're viewing it on a phone or other device and people make mistakes. Also, even when using PRD sometimes the search topics link into the SRD or a Paizo listing that leads to it and it isn't always noticeable when you're focused on looking for a topic.
  
• Using what you have available to try and help someone is not cause for insult. If you ask for help spelling a word and someone says they only have the Oxford dictionary but they'll take time to help you doesn't deserve you screaming that they should be using Merriam-Webster.
  
• Possibly for the same reason you quoted wikipedia to try and explain to us that a king cobra is a really big snake and exists in nature (India) and that's a reason it should be viable in your campaign setting (which may or may not take place in India.) It was a resource you had available and it was in your opinion a bit of information you could offer up. You could have used similar quotes from PRD, SRD, or variant monster rules. I don't think any of that is cause to assume you aren't able to collate rules.

Diego Rossi wrote:

Pizza Lord wrote:

If you honestly believe a black bear is just a baby brown bear or a grizzly bear that gains a few HD turns into a polar bear... I.... I don't know what I can do to help you with that.

You reap what you sow.:

That was a statement of exasperation at someone making a statement that a black bear is nothing more than template or HD adjusted polar bear or grizzly bear. I assure you, that was not being condescending. Condescending would have been the reply I was going to make before I realized that nothing I could say was going to make a difference regardless of what source or quote I used to try explain the differences between a black bear and a panda bear, if I hadn't chosen to take a step back from what seemed an obviously trolling statement. Okay, I can see now that Rysky truly believed that a polar bear was a template of a brown bear. I am saddened (not in a condescending way, just a way that realizes someone's not going to agree with you) to realize that because there is a point where one realizes that there's a gap between common ground. It's like understanding that there's a 4-sided die, a 10-sided die, and a 20-sided die and talking to someone who thinks they're just templates of 6-sided dice because that's the original dice they associated with in life and are the most commonly used in the world when they are in fact, each just variant dice in their own rights.

Diego Rossi wrote:

- a druid or someone using beastshape II and above can't turn into a large snake unless he can find a printed description somewhere

Assuming you are in a game (not PFS or other regulated setting which would be a different forum) where that creature exists and you have knowledge of it, there is no reason rules-wise regarding polymorph effects that you can't turn into that creature. Your GM may not have statted out every creature. He may agree that dodos existed or even still exist in his world, but since they weren't integral to his campaign or the location you're playing in he didn't bother to fill out all the details in stat-block form, he might reasonably ask you not to do it (or even just say No without an explanation). That's acceptable, but different from being an illegal choice of creature, I guess 'restricted' would be the closest term.

Quote:

- a druid or someone using beastshape II can turn into a large snake as they exist in nature.

The assumption being that exists in nature equals exists in the game world, and your character has reasonable knowledge of it. Being extinct like dodos or dinosaurs might make such things harder (luckily in most games dinosaurs are not extinct so that's a bit easier there). Even with the vast amount of knowledge on dinosaurs and their variants, there's still just so much we can't reasonably know without observing each one actually existing in its environment, interacting with it and each other and events. There could be coloration and skin markings that we can't tell from bones or noises and scents they gave off that we might never be able to know.

That not-withstanding, if your game world has a 'King Cobra' that is a 14 HD large snake, then you should be able to turn into it. If it also has normal rattlesnakes but in one area there are sometimes 8 HD rattlesnakes or 'fiendish rattlesnake' then no. It's like not being able to turn into King Kong (obviously also a specific creature and also likely out of size range) because he's everyone thinks he's just a really advanced Giant-template Gorilla, but then later explorers find remains or a lost family of them and realize that King King is not a Gorilla but a species all their own related to gorillas but a distinct (non-template) variant.

[James Risner]

Pizza Lord wrote:

there is no reason rules-wise regarding polymorph effects that you can't turn into that creature. Your GM may not have statted out every creature

You are venturing into questions along the lines of "Ask your GM" type.

If you ask me as a GM, I'll tell you I need a stat block that doesn't have a template applied. The polar Bear in Bestiary V is one example but the Polar Bear in Bestiary I is not valid for polymorph.

[Daw]

I'm sorry, but this thread started out kind of silly, but has rolled into mean spirited and reactionary. In the cause of Harmony, I will throw some gasoline on the fire.

Kodiak Grizzlies and Polar Bears can successfully interbreed, look it up. Thus, the polar bear ..is in reality.. a templated grizzly bear, we just need a biologist to give us the template for the half polar bears now running around.

The sad thing is, someone will read this and believe it justifies something. Words written down...

Coming back to spell it out,
We have two camps here, and they are both right. We have the Tacticals, who are arguing that what is written, as written, is right. We all need to be playing the same rules for the game to be fair, otherwise, it is not fun. Then we have the simulationists, who are arguing that the rules, as written, detract from the internal logic of fantasy, interfering with our suspension of disbelief, making it not fun.

As long as we keep pretending that we are playing the same game, we are just going to stay mad at each other.

[Tyrant Lizard King]

I hope the Dire thing is understood. You CAN turn into a Dire creature. Dire Wolves were real creatures by the way... pretty cool, look them up.

Anyway, lets end the dispute...

For those who want to go expressly by the RAW; You can only Wildshape into a creature if it exists in the Bestiary AND if you are familiar with it. (all other restrictions of the ability applied)

For those who like variety and want to bend the rules; bend the rules lol

This was a post of mine in a similar thread......

People get bent around the rules and freak out about things, that are restricted by the RAW, that really don't hurt the balance in any way...
Wild Shape says you can become any animal you are familiar with. Lets go with the Constrictor Snake... it basically represents your average python. What about the Anaconda? Would the GM use the advanced versions for higher level characters? That makes them real in the game does it not? The Constrictor Snake can be enlarged to a Large or Huge creature resembling an Anaconda. How does this break the balance of the game when a character could also turn into an Allosaurus(Huge)that gains Pounce, Grab and Rake!?

On the other hand, people talk of the Huge Tiger thing...
Realistically, there has NEVER been an Elephant sized(Huge) tiger... the great thing about this game is that they can exist if a GM wants a species of elephant sized tigers! Or any other animal the GM wants to exist in HIS world.

Player: "Hey GM, in this game are there Large and Huge Anacondas? Im playing a Serpent Shaman and there is nothing left that fits my specific abilities and theme beyond the Emperor Cobra?"

GM: "Of course there are. You guys will be in swamps most of the campaign."

Player: "So could I Wild Shape into those creatures when Im able to, if Im familiar with them, even though they aren't in the bestiary?"

Gm: "That rule is stupid. There is an exception for the Eagle Shaman turning into a freakin Roc so Im OK with that."

Player: :D

....problem solved. When it comes down to it, the game is about having fun people. Bend the rules to your will, drive them before you and hear the lamentations of their women!