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I have been reading the numerous fighter threads. It seems to come down to being able to do these roles
Champion
Master
Guardian
Hunter ( I think this role is filled by the Ranger.)
Soldier
Marshal/Warlord (I suggest Amora Games Battle Lord
And also have a combat bonus at level 1. And have some daily flexibility/change-ability.
That is a pretty wide range to cover. Do you agree? Roles you would add?
My take on the Fighter follows. I wanted to keep the Fighter chassis (because of Archetypes and other core stuff). I respectively borrowed from other posters’, LRG Fighting Man , RGG Talented Fighter and Alt to Bravery
BaB: Full
Saves: Same
Hit Dice: d10
Alignment: Any
Class Skills
The class’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
*Fighters may select the Signature Skill feat.
Level special
*1 Fighting Discipline, Daily Training
*2 Edge, Feature, Combat Stamina
*3 Armor Training
*4 Edge
*5 Weapon Training
*6 Edge
*7 Battlefield Maneuvers
*8 Edge
*9 Weapon Training 2
*10 Advanced Edges, Edge
*11 Advanced Daily Training
*12 Edge
*13 Weapon Training 3
*14 Edge
*15 ??????
*16 Edge
*17 Weapon Training 4
*18 Edge
*19 Armor Mastery
*20 Edge, Weapon Mastery
Fighting Discipline: At first level, you adopt a particular style of fighting as your specialty. Please see the list of the Fighting Disciplines here.
Archer
1st level: The fighter gains the Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot feats
6th level: Gain a +2 bonus to damage when using a ranged weapon
Finesse
1st level: The fighter gains the Weapon Finesse feat. In addition, he may add his Dexterity to damage rolls in place of Strength with finesse-able weapons. This does not increase this damage when two-handing a weapon and does not decrease this damage for off-handing a weapon.
6th level:
Pugilist: (Have you seen the Monk and Brawler?)
1st level: The fighter Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. In addition, he gains the unarmed damage of a monk of equal to his fighter level.
6th: The fighter gains the Iron Fist feat (see New Feats list). Or Improved Iron Fist if he already has Iron Fist.
Two-Hander
1st level: The fighter gains the Power Attack feat. In addition, when he rolls a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack with a melee weapon, he can reroll the die. He must use the new roll even if the new roll is a 1 or 2.
6th level: The fighter gains the Furious Focus feat.
Two-Weapon
1st level: The fighter gains the Two Weapon Fighting and Double Slice feats.
6th level: The fighter gains the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat.
Weapon and Shield
1st level: The fighter gains the Shield Focus and Combat Expertise feats.
6th level:
Feature: Each fighter has unique characteristics. At 2nd level select one from the list.
*Note this counts as “Bravery” for archetype’s replacement.
Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.
Defensive Stance (Ex) Starting at 2nd level, the fighter selects one combat maneuver and gains a +1 bonus to his CMD against all CMB checks made to perform the maneuver. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels beyond 2nd.
Into The Breach (Ex) Starting at 2nd level, the fighter adds half his class level to all Acrobatics checks made to jump or reduce the damage of a fall.
Offensive Stance (Ex) Starting at 2nd level, the fighter selects one combat maneuver and gains a +1 bonus to all CMB checks to perform the maneuver. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels beyond 2nd.
Quick Healer (Ex) Starting at 2nd level, the fighter’s non-magic healing recovers damage at x2 the normal rate (including healing hp and ability damage healed through rest, and hp restored by the treat deadly wounds function of the Heal skill). This multiple increases by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 2nd, to a maximum of x6 non-magical healing at 18th level.
Respected Veteran (Ex) Starting at 2nd level, the fighter gains a +1 circumstance bonus to all Diplomacy checks made with professional fighters (including guards, soldiers, mercenaries, and gladiators). This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels beyond 2nd.
Tough as Iron (Ex) Starting at 2nd level, the fighter is disabled when at 0 or -1 hit points, and can go to a negative hp total 1 greater than his Constitution score before dying. These hp ranges increase by 1 hp (disabled at 0 to -2 hp, not dead until reaching negative hp equal to Constitution +2) at 6th level, and every 4 levels afterward.
list
Edges
At 2nd level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains an Edge. (See list here.) Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn an edge in place of an edge he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the edge in exchange for the new one. The old edge cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another edge, feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one edge at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the edge at the time he gains a new edge for the level.
Fighter Edges
The Edges listed below are typically more powerful than a standard feat or allow a fighter to take a feat without the prerequisites. Unless specified, each edge can only be selected once.
Armored Defense (Ex): The fighter gains DR 1/— when wearing light armor, DR 2/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 3/— when wearing heavy armor. This damage reduction stacks with that provided by adamantine armor, but not with other forms of damage reduction. This damage reduction does not apply if the armor master is stunned, unconscious, or helpless.
Begrudging Respect (Ex): When mercenaries, men-at-arms, guards or other creatures of a soldierly persuasion witness a fighting man in combat they automatically have their attitude
towards the fighting man improved by 1 step. This is a mind affecting effect and can only impact a creature once in a 24 hour period and impacts the creature for 6 hours. This also imparts a sense of respect or admiration for the fighting man’s prowess, though this may influence different creatures in different ways. Some may see the fighting man as a worthy opponent and the creature affected by this may be compelled to seek him out on the battlefield. Others may be intimidated by him, but still respect his skill.
Carpe Punga (Ex): The fighter gains Improved Initiative as a bonus feat. In addition, he gains Uncanny Dodge as though he were a barbarian of equal level.
Combat Feat (Ex): A fighter may take a combat feat (that he qualifies for) in place of an edge. He may select this talent multiple times, each time he does he selects a new combat feat.
Combat Medic (Ex): The fighting man gains Heal as a class skill and does not take the -4 penalty
to attack rolls when dealing nonlethal damage. When the fighting man uses the Heal skill to successfully treat deadly wounds or provide that creature with long term care, the creature gains an additional amount of hit points equal to three times the fighting man’s level. For every 5 the fighting man beats the DC by he adds another multiple of his fighting man level to the amount of hit points restored.
Comin’ at Ya’ (Ex): The fighting man gains Step Up and Following Step as bonus feats. He may use those feats when an opponent takes a withdraw action while within his threatened area. In addition, when using these feats, he may expend an attack of opportunity to move an extra 5 feet per attack of opportunity expended.
Dodging Charge (Ex): When using a charge action, he does not draw attacks of opportunity as he passes through threatened areas. In addition, he does not suffer the standard Armor Class
penalty when charging.
Graceful Fighter (Ex): The fighting man gains a +2 competence bonus on Reflex saves. This
bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels he has attained.
Hardy (Ex): The fighter gains the Toughness feat. In addition, whenever the fighter regains 1 or more points of ability damage or drain (be it from mundane or magic healing), he recovers 1 more point than normal. And whenever he receives magical healing, he heals an additional 1 point per die rolled.
Historian (Ex): The fighter gains Knowledge: Engineering, Geography, History and Nobility as class skills. In addition, he gets a +1 bonus on skill checks using these skills.
Iron Fist (Sp): The fighter’s unarmed strikes do an additional 1d6 damage. Do not multiply this damage in the case of a critical hit. When he reaches 11th level, the bonus increases to +2d6. The attacks made must be with fists.
Prerquisites: Pugilist Discipline or Unarmed Strike feat
Know Thy Enemy (Ex): The fighting man gains Knowledge: Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, Planes and Religion as class skills. In addition, when using these skills to identify a monster, he gains a +2 bonus on the skill check.
Magical Inclination (Sp): Use magic device becomes a class skill. In addition, the fighter gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This spell can be cast three times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the fighter’s level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + his Intelligence modifier.
Military Living (Ex):
Prerequisites: 3 ranks in Survival
The fighter gains the Endurance feat. But, may sleep in any sort of armor and not suffer any sort of fatigue. In addition, he may attempt a Survival check (DC 15) to locate weapons and armor suitable as being classified as non-improvised weapons and providing an AC bonus (respectively). These weapons and armor may be crude (possibly possessing the fragile quality) and may not necessarily hold value depending on the location they are found in- but they can always be found with at least 10 minutes of searching.
Mobile Combatant (Ex): The fighting man gains Mobility as a bonus feat. In addition, he may
move an additional 5 feet whenever he takes a 5-foot step.
Night Sentry (Ex):
Prerequisites: 3 ranks in Perception
The fighting man gains darkvision 30 feet or his darkvision improves by 30 feet if he already has it. In addition, he gains a +5 bonus on opposed Perception / Stealth checks.
Stalwart (Ex): The fighter gains a +2 competence bonus on Fort saves. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels he has attained.
Stay the Line (Ex): As a standard action, the fighting man can quell any fear in his heart as well as
that of his allies a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma bonus. All allied creatures who can see and hear him gain an immediate save against any ongoing fear effects at a +2 morale bonus and they all gain a morale bonus against any new fear equal to 1/3rd the fighting man’s level (minimum +1) effects for 3 rounds.
Storm of Blades (Ex): The fighting man gains the Cleave and Cleaving Finish feats.
Strong Willed (Ex): The fighter gains a +2 competence bonus on Will saves. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels he has attained.
Spin Attack (Ex)
Prerequisites: BAB +5
When the fighter uses the full-attack action, he can give up regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at his highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.
Unavoidable Assault (Ex): When not mounted, the fighter’s charge is not blocked by friendly
creatures or difficult terrain. In addition, he can make one turn during the charge rather than moving only in a straight line.
Unarmored Dodge (Ex):
Prerequisites: Dex 13,
You have found through experience that you seem to do a lot better at dodging while not wearing armor. As long as you are neither wearing armor, nor using any item, spell, or other effect that grants an Armor Bonus to AC, you receive a +4 Dodge Bonus to AC. For every five levels you possess, this bonus increases by an additional +1.
Special: This Feat may be used instead of the Dodge feat as a prerequisite for any and all Feats, abilities, and Prestige Classes that require Dodge.
Vital Striker (Ex):
Prerequistes: Bab+6
The fighter gains Vital Strike as a bonus feat and may also use that feat on one attack granted at the end of a charge. At 12th level he gains Improved Vital Strike. At 16th level he gains Greater Vital Strike. The fighting man must be at least 6th level to select this talent.
War College: The fighter gains 5 additional skill points, which must be spent on class skills.
This does not allow the fighter to exceed the normal maximum number of ranks in a skill.
This is a one-time bonus, not an increase to the number of skill points the fighter gains at each
level (though the talent may be taken more than once, granting +5 skill points each time it is
taken).
Advanced Fighter Edges
Armor Defense Mastery (Ex):
Prerequisties: Armored Defense edge
The DR from the Armored Defense Edge talent increases by 2.
So; DR 3/— when wearing light armor, DR 4/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 5/— when wearing heavy armor. This DR does stack with the Armor Mastery class feature.
Determined (Ex):
Prerequisites: Strong Willed edge
Once per day the TF can re-roll a Will save. In addition, whenever he makes a Will save against an ability that has a partial effect on a successful save, he takes no effect from that ability on a successful save. He is still harmed by the effects that do not allow a saving throw.
Evasion (Ex):
Prerequistes: Graceful Fighter edge
The fighter gains evasion, as the rogue class feature, when in light or no armor.
Guerrilla Soldier (Ex): The fighter gains one rogue talent (but not advanced talent). The
fighter treats his fighter level as his rogue level to determine if he can take the talent, but must meet all other prerequisites.
Hard to Kill (Ex): Whenever the fighter is below 0 hit points, he automatically stabilizes without needing to attempt a Constitution check. If he has an ability that allows him to act while below 0 hit points, he still loses hit points for taking actions, as specified by that ability. Bleed damage still causes him to lose hit points when below 0 hit points. In addition, he won’t die until his total number of negative hit points is equal to or greater than double his Constitution score.
Mettle (Ex):
Prerequistes: Stalwart edge
Once per day, the fighter can re-roll a Whenever the fighter succeeds on a Fortitude save that would normally have a lesser effect on a successful save, he instead completely negates the effect. He is still harmed by the effects that do not allow a saving throw.
I think you need more big picture work before you write the details.
Ugh. I hate the BBC code. I would really like comments/suggestions on my revised fighter. Here is the full easier to read doc.
Or I can PM the Word doc to you- just PM me.
Thanks
I think you need more big picture work before you write the details.
What does that mean specifically? Do you not agree on the roles I listed?
Or do you mean that the Fighter needs a complete overhaul and should be built up from scratch?
It's a decent enough Fighter upgrade, I suppose. From the thread title I just expected more of a role analysis and ground-up reworking.
Something more on the order of:
*A Fighter is fully prepared to fight as soon as his first turn comes up. To that end, he should not have abilities that require him to pre-buff in any way, and should if possible be a bad candidate for long- or medium-term prebuffing, while still being a very good target for short-term buffs.
*The Fighter's main playground is Feats. His secondary playground is weapons and armor, including random or semi-random loot, changing circumstances and so on. To that end, he should NOT be locked into specific weapons. His ability to change fighting styles should not become narrower as he levels up.
*The use of daily and per-encounter resources is contentious, and such abilities should be stricly optional, formally and practically.
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I think ultimately my critique of this is you haven't really remade the fighter at all, at least from what I read (I may have missed something).
You gave him bigger numbers for things he could already do for the most part, though you have introduced some good options. The fighter is already good at fighting, though boring and uninteresting. He didn't really need bigger numbers, he needed different things he could do.
Ultimately, the problem with the fighter is he doesn't have many options other than full attack, full attack, and full attack.
Not only that, but many of your "solutions" are reminiscent of the options provided by Weapon Master's Handbook Advanced Weapon Training and the Armor Master's Handbook Advanced Armor Training options.
What the fighter needs are abilities that simulate magical effects, without being magic. How does a fighter get from one edge of a chasm to another? He jumps it, if he's lucky.
How does the wizard get across? Fly, dimension door, teleport, etc.
That sort of power disparity is the problem with fighters.
Address that issue, and you will fix the fighter class.
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The Roles are designed thusly:
Champion: You are picked to take down the big boss X. How good are you at doing it?
This role caters to Nova tactics, offensive power, and good defenses to defy a powerful enemy. It maps to Str.
The key feat here would be Power Attack.
Master: Can you do something? How good are you at doing it? Can you train others or improve yourself somehow? Are you rewarded for being intelligent? Can you measure a foe and overcome him?
This role caters to teachers, jacks of all trades, skill focused builds, and classes that reward high int skills, skill at arms instead of stats-at-arms, and can do things in game to improve the character beyond class features. You should be able to do all sorts of combat maneuvers beyond just attacking, and do them well.
It maps to Int.
The key feat here would be Expertise, ideally.
Bodyguard/Sentinel: The enemy is coming, and you have to guard against him. How good are you at it?
This role caters to high skill mods in Perception, durability, high and alternate senses, alertness, and helping others.
It maps to WIs.
The Key feat here would be alternate senses of some kind, like BLind Fighting.
Hunter: You need to find an enemy/monster and take him down.
This role focuses on Stealth, tracking, endurance, rapid movement, survival, ranged attacks/sniping, sneak attacks, infiltration /bypassing defenses, and the ability to kill quickly. Think a spec ops warrior, no spells.
It maps to Dex.
The key feat here would be TWF, Deadly Aim, or COmbat Reflexes.
Soldier: You and 1000 of your closest friends and neighbors have to kill something.
This role focuses on teamwork with allies, mass combat efficiency, defenses and durability, endurance, training/retraining, constant and reliable DPR, and tactics.
It maps to Con, and is the least stat dependent role.
The key feats here would be Teamwork feats, Die Hard, or Endurance.
Warlord/Marshal: You have to lead that army of 1000 soldiers to kill something, as the first step on your road to Empire.
This role is about buffing allies, willpower, executing strategic and tactical maneuvers, providing morale, rallying/gathering troops in the first place, training large numbers of people, and having the social skills to mix with other leaders of men and hold their own and more.
It maps to Charisma.
The key feat here would be Leadership.
==============
The bog standard Fighter does only the soldier role well. It has all armor/weapons, good HP, and can spend feats on teamwork feats. Weapon Mastery works quite well alongside everyone else using the same weapon.
The Barbarian can do Champion (rage is a nova, superstitious for defense, etc), Bodyguard (Uncanny Dodge, mostly) and Warlord (gives away Rage) well. It can do Soldier because it gets a combat buff at level 1, and has excellent durability.
The Paladin also does Champion (Smite!), Bodyguard (Det Evil) and Warlord (buff spells, gives away Smites, heals others) well. It can do Master because it can make magic items and use spells, allowing custom improvement/adapting tactics. It can do Soldier because of superb durability/healing.
The Ranger does Champion, Bodyguard, and Soldier well. And of course, does Hunter extremely well. It can do Master because it can make magic items and use spells, and has a ton of skill points and skill modifiers. It can play at Warlord with Guide, healing/buffing others, and having a pet.
A class like the Swashbuckler seems...poor...because it doesn't do any of the roles well. It can't nova or defend enough to be a Champion, it's Iconic role of The MAster doesn't really work with it, it doesn't have the senses to be a Bodyguard, can't track/kill as a Hunter needs to, doesn't even LOOK like a Soldier (finesse fighting on a soldier?), and doesn't have any charismatic leadership ability or group buffs, for the most part.
The Brawler looks better then the fighter, because not only can it do the Soldier role well, it can grab feats to allow a limited amount of self-buffing to 'nova' a bit as a Champion; the whole Flexibility rewards intelligent play by grabbing appropriate feats at the right time as a Master (and UA dmg + Manuvers increases by level, not just stat); Sense Motive and Percept are class skills for the Bodyguard role; Has Knockout for the 'instant kill' to help a Hunter's role (even with no ranged attack).
So, naturally it looks better then a rote fighter.
--Bier!
I think ultimately my critique of this is you haven't really remade the fighter at all, at least from what I read (I may have missed something).
You gave him bigger numbers for things he could already do for the most part, though you have introduced some good options. The fighter is already good at fighting, though boring and uninteresting. He didn't really need bigger numbers, he needed different things he could do.
Ultimately, the problem with the fighter is he doesn't have many options other than full attack, full attack, and full attack.
I am not the OP, but this is an argument I hear fairly often and one I think is somewhat misleading.
Combat should be the fighter's main schtick, and it is what the class name and concept suggest. I do think the fighter's out-of combat utility can be increased somewhat, but the Weapon/armor master handbook did a fair bit at that. I would not go further for the fighter, because at that point the other non-magical martials - barbarians, cavaliers, etc - start feeling left behind. The rules could benefit from more special high-level options for skills, letting them do the sort of things that you now need some spells for.
On the other hand, the fighter having more combat options and efficiency at higher levels is imo a good idea. See, the fighter is okay at fighting. However, when that is its sole specialty, "okay" doesn't quite cut it imo. The ranger is okay at fighting, and has a lot of other tricks up his sleeve. So do the paladin, slayer, and the avenger vigilante, to name a few. This is why I think fighters and to a point barbarians should have an added edge to represent their focus.
My current idea about the fighter do involve more defensive abilities and a pinch of extra utility (4+int skill points and limited use of the hero point system), but I think when your main job is to fight, you should be the gold standard at it.
The Fighter's basic role is contained within his name. Especially in the original version of his name... Fighting Man.
It really doesn't more complicated than that.
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Until you realize every other class can 'fight' as well as Mr. Fighting Man, and do all sorts of other stuff, so why would you want to be Joe AVerage instead of Six Million Dollar Steve?
Here's the other things a Fighter rebuild should touch on:
1) Don't need much in combat bonuses.
2) Feat consolidation needed. Call them Talents, Edges, Techniques, WHATEVER...you need them.
3) Better saves. +reflex or +will, but SOMETHING!
4) Skills and skill points should be expanded because…not a caster!
5) More movement, utility, and defense options.
6) Something unique or special? Because TH/DMG/AC bonuses are not special.
7) Stuff less tied to character stats, and more by level. It's about skill at arms, not stats at arms. Stats at arms is the Paladin and Barb.
8) Some form of combat bonus at level 1 that is not just an elective feat, please. All the other martial classes have SOMETHING.
9) Some type of intra-day or inter-day versatility. The Brawler's Martial Flexibility is one way of doing this.
10) Need for archetypes and PrC's should mostly be taken care of by a feat/talent or two. THis is a personal bias.
--Bier!
Combat is the fighter's main thing, and he is actually very good at for someone that doesn't have any limited resources to spend on it (natively).
But between Combat Stamina (give it to fighters for free) and Advanced Weapon Training and Advanced Armor Training the fighter actually has pretty excellent options at being a martial master.
As a a general rule, the fighter is the standard of being great at combat (without spending resources). Sure, some classes can temporarily be better but require buffing or expending resources, and are often limited in who it applies to (Smite or Challenge).
But I do agree fighters (and everyone in the game who isn't Int based) should have 4+int skill points per level.
They also need to have some sort of bonus to some skills like other classes get. Maybe a bonus to perception (fighters should be good at noticing stuff right?) and maybe to profession soldier (even though it isn't that useful). Hell maybe give fighters the ability to do special things with profession(soldier). Maybe use it in place of diplomacy against any solider, or anyone associated with military organization, town watch, etc.
Until you realize every other class can 'fight' as well as Mr. Fighting Man, and do all sorts of other stuff, so why would you want to be Joe AVerage instead of Six Million Dollar Steve?
That's because you've forgotten that fighting is more than just BAB. The Fighter is the most versatile of the combat classes He can be a master of multiple combat styles. He can move at full speed with the heaviest armor... without resorting to short duration spells.
In most of the tables I've played in or run, the Fighter is generally the anchor of the group. He does the most consistent damage and his strategy is pretty much the centerpoint on how the rest of the group functions.
Until you realize every other class can 'fight' as well as Mr. Fighting Man, and do all sorts of other stuff, so why would you want to be Joe AVerage instead of Six Million Dollar Steve?
Here's the other things a Fighter rebuild should touch on:
1) Don't need much in combat bonuses.
2) Feat consolidation needed. Call them Talents, Edges, Techniques, WHATEVER...you need them.
3) Better saves. +reflex or +will, but SOMETHING!
4) Skills and skill points should be expanded because…not a caster!
5) More movement, utility, and defense options.
6) Something unique or special? Because TH/DMG/AC bonuses are not special.
7) Stuff less tied to character stats, and more by level. It's about skill at arms, not stats at arms. Stats at arms is the Paladin and Barb.
8) Some form of combat bonus at level 1 that is not just an elective feat, please. All the other martial classes have SOMETHING.
9) Some type of intra-day or inter-day versatility. The Brawler's Martial Flexibility is one way of doing this.
10) Need for archetypes and PrC's should mostly be taken care of by a feat/talent or two. THis is a personal bias.--Bier!
1) Completely agree, fighters are actually pretty solid at fighting. Optimized fighters don't really need a lot of help in combat.
2) Feat consolidation...I've often thought that martial characters could use help with feats growing to include more feats. Of course, this doesn't help the fighter that much since he has the most feats.3) Advanced Weapon Training for Armed Bravery and Fighter's Reflexes fixes both Will and Reflex saves.
4) I agree that he should get 4+ skill points per level, but he can also get effective skill points by using Advanced Weapon Training to pick up Versatile Training. This gives you 2 free skills basically per time you take it, but you really shouldn't have to spend feats on it IMO.
5) I will agree here. It would be nice if fighters could get an expended option along this line. I like the idea of being able to make a number of 5ft steps equal to the number of attacks you have from BAB. So a 16th level fighter could move up to 20ft as 5ft steps, and still full attack. That would be a huge bonus.
6-8) Not really sure here
9) Just give Fighters Combat Stamina instead of making them take a feat. Gives some decent options depending on feats taken.
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Fighters should have 6 sp/level. Even barbs use Supernatural stuff. Rangers use spells. There is NO excuse for Fighters to have fewer points then Rangers. Fighters don't rely on magic, period.
Here's the 'new' combat options open to fighters:
1) Stamina system. If you just hand it out, it adds some floating combat bonuses/options to Fighters, at the cost of having to track additional feat abilities and manage the stamina pool.
--It doesn't do much of anything for movement, utility, leadership, and defensive options. And it's hard to justify why only fighters have something called 'stamina'...so they let other classes take it, too.
2) Advanced Weapon Training: You can spend feats to SLOWLY pick up some actually decent feats, like turning Bravery to all Will saves. Unless you are specifically a Weapon Master, however, it takes you FOREVER to get the stuff you want (2 before level 10). And they even limit the skills you can take...to what weapon groups you have.
So, you are spending feats, to get something you should have had all along. This entire category is basically very limited Feat Consolidation/making Talents/Techniques/Edges.
3) Advanced Armor training: This brought out two great things...you can use the gear you are wearing to get additional magical effects, and you can draw on the metals of your armor to get additional effects.
These are great things! Definitely worth a feat each. The fighter becomes master of ALL his gear, not just a weapon.
4) Martial Flexibility: This ability of the Brawler should have been that of a Fighter all along. No questions to it.
So, to summarize, what 'fixes' are out there officially is:
Very limited Feat Consolidation.
Adding a Pool and more in-combat choices.
Better use of all gear, not just weapons/armor.
Ability to swap feats in/out.
It doesn't solve the Fighter's base problems even if you pretty much give ALL these as a constant to ALL fighters.
They still are lousy with skills...because no skill bonuses.
They still have no immunities/resistances.
They still have no recovery options.
They are still gold/gear dependent, even for the nifty AAT stuff.
Out of combat utility/leadership basically still the same.
==Bier!
Until you realize every other class can 'fight' as well as Mr. Fighting Man, and do all sorts of other stuff, so why would you want to be Joe AVerage instead of Six Million Dollar Steve?
That's because you've forgotten that fighting is more than just BAB. The Fighter is the most versatile of the combat classes He can be a master of multiple combat styles. He can move at full speed with the heaviest armor... without resorting to short duration spells.
In most of the tables I've played in or run, the Fighter is generally the anchor of the group. He does the most consistent damage and his strategy is pretty much the centerpoint on how the rest of the group functions.
No, I didn't forget about BAB. Every other martial class can be a master of multiple combat styles...because their base combat ability is not based on one weapon. They get their bonuses with ALL weapons. Smite, Rage, FE work with ALL WEAPONS.
And he can move 'slower' then the other classes in the heaviest armor, while they move faster then him in very slightly lighter armor.
Speed in combat is generally more important then 1-2 pts of AC.
yes, Fighters can take more feats. They need these feats to catch up to what the other classes already have!...and they don't get enough of them.
Your group's play style is ONE style of play. A rather large number of people consider that fighters get weaker and weaker in the party as the party advances, until they are a drag on the party, not a contributor, do to a mix of unexceptional damage, inability to recover by themselves, lack of group additive abilities...and horrible defenses, most tellingly.
This is a mechanics issue. You can gloss over and try to conceal it with a supportive playstyle, but it is still a mechanics issue.
===Bier!
Until you realize every other class can 'fight' as well as Mr. Fighting Man, and do all sorts of other stuff, so why would you want to be Joe AVerage instead of Six Million Dollar Steve?
That's because you've forgotten that fighting is more than just BAB. The Fighter is the most versatile of the combat classes He can be a master of multiple combat styles. He can move at full speed with the heaviest armor... without resorting to short duration spells.
In most of the tables I've played in or run, the Fighter is generally the anchor of the group. He does the most consistent damage and his strategy is pretty much the centerpoint on how the rest of the group functions.
No, I didn't forget about BAB. Every other martial class can be a master of multiple combat styles...because their base combat ability is not based on one weapon. They get their bonuses with ALL weapons. Smite, Rage, FE work with ALL WEAPONS.
And he can move 'slower' then the other classes in the heaviest armor, while they move faster then him in very slightly lighter armor.
Speed in combat is generally more important then 1-2 pts of AC.
yes, Fighters can take more feats. They need these feats to catch up to what the other classes already have!...and they don't get enough of them.Your group's play style is ONE style of play. A rather large number of people consider that fighters get weaker and weaker in the party as the party advances, until they are a drag on the party, not a contributor, do to a mix of unexceptional damage, inability to recover by themselves, lack of group additive abilities...and horrible defenses, most tellingly.
This is a mechanics issue. You can gloss over and try to conceal it with a supportive playstyle, but it is still a mechanics issue.
===Bier!
In the bulk of the campaigns I play in which top out at 12th level or less, this is not an issue all the way up to playing Eyes of the Ten, which was the final retirement mark for most PFS characters.
Past 12th level is another thing altogether as high level campaigns are much more dependent on DMs than they are on the rules mechanics to keep them fun for everyone.
PFS Fighters tend to be heavily optimized on the defensive side, because the people that play them know their weaknesses.
however, they still suffer from the standard faults of the fighter. Especially in the area of skills, recovery options, and defenses/resistances/immunities. They have to rely on the party to cover for them.
I'm not saying they can't do the job if built carefully. But for general use, the other classes do it as well, and don't need to be covered for as much. And that is mechanics, not playstyle.
==Bier!
Ok, here are a few ideas I have regarding fighters. My overall presumption is that they lack some defensive abilities and utility at first, but at middle and high levels they start being too reliant on their teammates for the necessary buffs and setup. Also, they have too few features - between levels 4 and 19, fighter get zilch except bonus feats and improvements to what they already have. Compare that with most new classes,who get new trick almost every level. So, overall:
4+int skill points = about the same as barbarians and cavaliers. Not great, but better than now.
Indomitable (replaces bravery): 1/2 the class level to saves vs fear, resisting intimidate and combat stamina pools. My idea is that there are various other abilities adding 1/2 class level to something, and combat stamina offers a good mechanics the fighter can specialize in - I did not want to make fighters outright immune to fear, but bravery needs to no longer be a joke compared to anything else that gives bonuses vs fear.
Soldier on:As an immediate action, can spend stamina points up to the bravery bonus for an equal bonus to any save. Cannot be done while the fighte is flat-footed. Either a part of bravery or a feature given soon after that, to me this approximates the good saves fighters had in 2E (basically spending a moment to prepare againt an incoming attack).
Armor training: additional armor training features (repeated armor focus, extra AC vs criticals, adding armor enhancement to gauntlet/armor spike attacks). To be honest armor training is a feature I had the least ideas about.
Weapon Training: gives its full bonus to CMD when using this weapon and as an insight bonus to AC against such weapons. Weapon damage bonus doubled. This starts low, but gets better at higher levels - where the extra damage can be handy against monsters that are huge HP sponges. The defensive bonus is niche, but to me part of being a master of a weapon is knowing how to defend yourself against that weapon.
Heroic stamina - level 6 - 2-6 times per day can spend 10 stamina points to duplicate the effects of a hero point. This can serve for both mobility and utility and I consider making it an optional combat stamina feat keyed off BAB for other warrior classes as well.
Armsmaster: level 8 or so - nonproficiency penalties for weapons reduced to -2 if the fighter can spend 1 hour practicing with that weapon. No longer provokes attacks of opportunity for any combat maneuvers. At level 16, the nonproficiency penalties are removed instead.
Shake it off - level 10 or so, spend stamina to temporarily ignore the effects of poisons, diseases or mind-affecting abilities (5 stamina points for 1 round, move action)
Rampage- level 12 or so, confirming a critical hit or defeating an opponent with at least 1/2 the fighter's HD recovers stamina points (1/2/3 depending on the weapon's critical modifier) and gives an extra attack against another threatened enemy.
This presumes all full BAB classes get combat stamina and barbarians/cavaliers get some extra tricks for it too (i.e barbarians get extra stamina per round when raging and cavaliers get it during and when completing a challenge). Overall, my idea is to make the fighter a better warrior while also giving it more defensive options and a few other tricks.
however, they still suffer from the standard faults of the fighter. Especially in the area of skills, recovery options, and defenses/resistances/immunities. They have to rely on the party to cover for them.
I don't see the problem here. Isn't the whole point of a party that everyone is covering for everyone else? The fighter engages the big burly thing that would otherwise chop the wizard in half, and the wizard is boosting him with haste so that he'll kill faster, while the rogue is sneak attacking it from behind, and after they all survive, someone else patches them up?
It would be...if the other members of the party weren't perfectly capable of killing the stuff without the fighter. So it comes down to the fighter being as good as anybody else at fighting, but all the other fighting classes being better at other things.
Or, to put it another way:
The barb gets stupendous bonuses to saves, has DR, moves faster, and does buckets of damage with more HP then a fighter.
The paladin can heal himself and you, has spells, has stupendous saves, and can Nova on the BBEG like nobody's business, plus has a customizable sword buff on demand.
The ranger has great skill bonuses, can heal himself and you, buff, has a pet, and can Nova with Instant Enemy very well, and dodge AoE spells.
The fighter can fight.
ALL of them can fight.
So, who would you want in your party....the one who can just fight, or the ones who can fight and do all that other stuff?
It would be...if the other members of the party weren't perfectly capable of killing the stuff without the fighter. So it comes down to the fighter being as good as anybody else at fighting, but all the other fighting classes being better at other things.
Or, to put it another way:
The barb gets stupendous bonuses to saves, has DR, moves faster, and does buckets of damage with more HP then a fighter.
The paladin can heal himself and you, has spells, has stupendous saves, and can Nova on the BBEG like nobody's business, plus has a customizable sword buff on demand.
The ranger has great skill bonuses, can heal himself and you, buff, has a pet, and can Nova with Instant Enemy very well, and dodge AoE spells.The fighter can fight.
ALL of them can fight.
So, who would you want in your party....the one who can just fight, or the ones who can fight and do all that other stuff?
Who I want in my party is a happy player who can contribute. If that contribution is solely though combat, I don't see a problem with this. Because I know the person who is solely combat will be a better fighter than one who's a jack of multiple trades.
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If we're going to go with just 'official' Paizo material, a fighter rewrite should do the following:
Go to 6 skill points. This is the same as taking the AWT option for skills a max of twice. Just DO it. Let every fighter pick two extra skills as class skills.
Get Training at level 1: This ability invokes the Stamina Pool and rules, and lets them ignore stat reqs on combat feats.
Give them a bonus feat every level and forget the skipping. They don't get spells, give them more feats. Also, expand the bonus feats they can take to include any save modifying feats, die hard, endurance (and similar fort/stamina related stuff), and any feat that modifies skills (skill focus, alertness, etc). And let them take AAT and AWT feats as fighter bonus feats without restriction right from level 1. You know, like most Rage Powers. and they get access to the Ranger style feats at the same level a Ranger does...or they ignore level reqs on the feats, too!
at 2, Trade Bravery for a bonus to all Will saves (AWT feat). Just DO it. And yes, add double the bonus against fear and intimidate, too.
add the martial flexibility of the Brawler, with one caveat...the Feats they get are on top of normal feats, stick around until this ability is used again, and the fighter automatically gets one 'switch' in the morning if they train for an hour. This effectively becomes an auto-scaling class 'intelligence bonus'. Restrict the capstone to 5, however.
Get Weapon training at level 3. LIke the WM archetype. Either have it apply to all weapons, or add another weapon group every 4 levels at the SAME BONUS. Let the bonus add to CMD.
Make Weapon spec a subset of Weapon focus, and simply double the WT bonus for one weapon, only. Thus, the fighter is skilled with many weapons, but a true master of just one, if he takes the feat.
Get Armor Training at 4th. Get the fast move in heavy armor at 4th and be done with it. You know, like dwarves get at level 1.
Turn the Dex increase to a straight Armor or Dodge bonus, like Vikings get, and grant them DR equal to the bonus, that stacks with adamantine and AAT feats.
Bravery, WT and AT should NOT count as class abilities when they autoscale. Spellcasters don't count it when their spells become more effective by level, why should fighters?
Get the AAT ability to use metal in their armor for special effects at 5. Some additional choice and cool effects possible.
Get the ability to use magical devices for extra stuff, like the AAT ability, at 6. Brings in some very much needed magical options.
At 7th level and higher, they should start getting movement, utility and leadership style bonuses, in place of the dead levels where all they'd otherwise have is auto-scaling.
Consolidate some feat chains into some auto-scaling feats, so the fighter can actually master multiple combat styles. More combat numbers are NOT required...these should be utility and flexibility oriented, defenses, recoveries, or immunities.
Some people may well say if they get all this, they don't even need feat consolidation, as their numbers will be good and they have options and actions. Entirely possible. but they still need something to contest with ever more powerful spellcasting, and that means leadership and anti-magic and movement and recovery options that are simply not in the rules at the present.
Who I want in my party is a happy player who can contribute. If that contribution is solely though combat, I don't see a problem with this. Because I know the person who is solely combat will be a better fighter than one who's a jack of multiple trades.It would be...if the other members of the party weren't perfectly capable of killing the stuff without the fighter. So it comes down to the fighter being as good as anybody else at fighting, but all the other fighting classes being better at other things.
Or, to put it another way:
The barb gets stupendous bonuses to saves, has DR, moves faster, and does buckets of damage with more HP then a fighter.
The paladin can heal himself and you, has spells, has stupendous saves, and can Nova on the BBEG like nobody's business, plus has a customizable sword buff on demand.
The ranger has great skill bonuses, can heal himself and you, buff, has a pet, and can Nova with Instant Enemy very well, and dodge AoE spells.The fighter can fight.
ALL of them can fight.
So, who would you want in your party....the one who can just fight, or the ones who can fight and do all that other stuff?
And that is a playstyle point, not a mechanics weakness point. Some people just like to play clerics as healers, too. All other things being equal, playstyle included, the fighter is by far the mechanically weakest choice to play.
And I'm sorry, if you think a fighter is the BEST at fighting of the four classes, I and many others will disagree with you.
It's a decent enough Fighter upgrade, I suppose. From the thread title I just expected more of a role analysis and ground-up reworking.
Something more on the order of:
*A Fighter is fully prepared to fight as soon as his first turn comes up. To that end, he should not have abilities that require him to pre-buff in any way, and should if possible be a bad candidate for long- or medium-term prebuffing, while still being a very good target for short-term buffs.
*The Fighter's main playground is Feats. His secondary playground is weapons and armor, including random or semi-random loot, changing circumstances and so on. To that end, he should NOT be locked into specific weapons. His ability to change fighting styles should not become narrower as he levels up.
*The use of daily and per-encounter resources is contentious, and such abilities should be stricly optional, formally and practically.
With one caveat: If he wants to spend a feat on weapon focus, Specializing in ONE Weapon so that he can be the 'master swordsman' should be entirely a thing.
But he has to spend the feat. And I'd limit it to one weapon, or one weapon style (for instance, if TWF with his choice of two mismatched weapons, i.e. Valeros).==Aelryinth
If that contribution is solely though combat, I don't see a problem with this. Because I know the person who is solely combat will be a better fighter than one who's a jack of multiple trades.
That statement is often touted as true, and I t ought to be true, but it isn't.
If that contribution is solely though combat, I don't see a problem with this. Because I know the person who is solely combat will be a better fighter than one who's a jack of multiple trades.That statement is often touted as true, and I t ought to be true, but it isn't.
And coming from the same person who espoused the fighter as the master of many fighting styles, rather odd.
And that is a playstyle point, not a mechanics weakness point. Some people just like to play clerics as healers, too. All other things being equal, playstyle included, the fighter is by far the mechanically weakest choice to play.
And I'm sorry, if you think a fighter is the BEST at fighting of the four classes, I and many others will disagree with you.
So you are comparing the paladin, the ranger, the barbarian, and the fighter?
Paladin - Against anything not evil the paladin sucks against them in combat. The paladin is only better than the fighter when Smiting.
Ranger - Only better than the fighter when using his Favored Enemy Bonus, which applies only against a limited number of races. At 10th level access to Instant Enemy makes this available basically all the time, but until then the fighter is generally better. And even after, it requires the player to know about this trick and to purposefully only increase 1 FE so that the bonus is larger than what the fighter would have with Weapon Training with Gloves of Dueling.
Barbarian - This one may be valid. Barbarian is possibly my favorite class (its sort of a tie with Bloodrager and Inquisitor) and its very strong. In terms of comparison a raging barbarian will deal comparable damage and have comparable to hit, assuming you build both fighter and barbarian to focus on damage. I've not seen enough comparisons to say one is better, except that the barbarian gets access to pounce. IMO, the fighter just needs to be able to move more freely and full attack.
So you are comparing the paladin, the ranger, the barbarian, and the fighter?
Paladin - Against anything not evil the paladin sucks against them in combat. The paladin is only better than the fighter when Smiting.
[Monty Python]
All right, al right, but apart from spellcasting, weapon buffing or animal companion, much better saves, condition removal, and swift action self-healing, what have the Paladin ever done for us?....Aura of Courage?
[/ Monty Python]
Ranger - Only better than the fighter when using his Favored Enemy Bonus,
Or, for example, Improved Precise Shot (4 levels early) + Aspect of the Falcon, or Shield Master at level 6, or having "Favored Enemy: 80% of all opponents", or ½ half favored enemy against everything.
The Fighter is decent at fighting (post-WMH and at sufficiently low levels), but he is not head and shoulders above everyone else. He is, however, total dead weight between fights.
So you are comparing the paladin, the ranger, the barbarian, and the fighter?
Paladin - Against anything not evil the paladin sucks against them in combat. The paladin is only better than the fighter when Smiting.
[Monty Python]
All right, al right, but apart from spellcasting, weapon buffing or animal companion, much better saves, condition removal, and swift action self-healing, what have the Paladin ever done for us?....Aura of Courage?
[/ Monty Python]
Ranger - Only better than the fighter when using his Favored Enemy Bonus,Or, for example, Improved Precise Shot (4 levels early) + Aspect of the Falcon, or Shield Master at level 6, or having "Favored Enemy: 80% of all opponents", or ½ half favored enemy against everything.
The Fighter is decent at fighting (post-WMH and at sufficiently low levels), but he is not head and shoulders above everyone else. He is, however, total dead weight between fights.
I was purely talking about "fighting things" in the sense of attacking.
Yes, the paladin has options that the fighter doesn't. But lay on hands isn't an offensive "fighting" ability. It's a self healing/condition removal ability. It serves a completely different purpose than fighting well. And the Paladin's spell casting is...lack luster. There are a few gems, but for the most part nothing exceptional aside from a few spells that really help him kick ass against evil again.
Aspect of the Falcon is only good now that Bracer's of Falcon's Aim has been nerfed. Improved Precise Shot or Shield Master was kind of the one serious reason to go Ranger over fighter, for getting those feats early. And Favored Enemy being 80% of opponents is mostly just a problem in PFS, where too many enemies are human.
Most of the adventure paths I've played through (once as a ranger but in the ones I've played through in general) FE(human) is a good choice, but hardly 80% of opponents. Maybe 20%. And then there are sections where 1 choice is super good for a short time, and worthless after that. Like giant is a good choice in Rise of the Runelords, for 1 book of the adventure path. The other 5 books its pretty lackluster. Of course this is void once you get Instant Enemy, but that's still a ways to wait.
And again, I'm not saying that the fighter doesn't need buffs. They just don't need buffs in the "cause damage" department, not really.
But I will grant you that my previous post didn't express clearly enough that I was mostly referring to a fighters ability to hit and deal damage, instead of dealing with all situations that could arise in combat.
And to expound on what I mean, most fighter fix threads that I see immediately start off with trying to add combat buffs.
Here's more bonuses to hit, damage, CMD, CMD, AC, etc. These sorts of things that fighter is already really good at and often fail to address the things he doesn't have.
One thing I thought of is perhaps fighter should get the ability to use Surmount Affliction a number of times per day, like it was a SLA, but have it merely be a extraordinary ability. Also make it a free action for them to use. Fighter just shakes off the bad stuff.
Another thing I thought of that could be interesting is the ability to "customize" how your enhancement bonuses are spent. Maybe once per day a fighter could change how the enhancement on a weapon is applied.
So if you had a +4 weapon, you could turn it into a +3 bane weapon at the start of the day. And then the next turn it into a +3 flaming weapon. It would be powerful, since options like bane would be on the table, but since you can only change it once per day I feel like its not too powerful.
Edit: And now I'm envisioning an ability called Fighter's Tourniquet-
The fighter can treat deadly wounds as a standard action and the effects take place immediately. This can only be 1 per day per creature.
If you combine that with the Skill Unlock for the heal skill it can become ok in terms of healing hp.
A recent thought on feat eligibility that really helps Fighters is giving them a partial bonus for Fighter levels when looking at base attack bonus requirements. The GM in question currently allows a +1 bonus per 4 fighter levels. I'm not in that game, but it is an interesting tweak.
To the feat qualification thing letting the fighter add half his class level to ability score requirements for combat can a be very nice/useful buff.
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And to expound on what I mean, most fighter fix threads that I see immediately start off with trying to add combat buffs.
Let me stop you right there.
In most 'poor' fighter rewrite threads, you see them adding more raw combat ability.
everyone who loves the fighter and appreciates it will concur that the fighter does NOT need more TH/dmg bonuses to be viable.
It needs everything else.
"Fighting" is more then offensive firepower, which is how you seem to be defining it.
IT is Defenses. It is Saves. It is movement. It is bringing different options to a fight.
The fighter's problem is that he is late to the game, and not very good at the game.
First of all, he doesn't get a combat bonus until level 5. That's right, Weapon Mastery at level 5. He's got NO combat bonuses, except a feat or two before then, that every other martial class can take. (except weapon spec).
And their bonuses work with ANY weapon. Not just one.
As for paladins against non-Evil...weapon bond, and spells. Esp Weapon Bond. The instant they get it...+1 stacking enhancement bonus, as good/better then weapon training. Going to +2, +3, +4, +5...with options of enhancements on it. Like, oh, fighter-killing BRILLIANT energy. Yes, Weapon Bond alone is stronger then all levels of a Fighter's weapon mastery.
Otherwise, what do they need? Weapon Focus, Power Attack. That's it. They got the defenses in the can already!
The Ranger? At the time the fighter gets Weapon Mastery, the RAnger can probably cast Lead Blades or Gravity bow 3 t/day, if he wishes (once with pearl, once class, once wis). They last a couple minutes, long enough for a fight...and oddly enough, his FE works, again, with his bow or his blade, unlike fighter weapon mastery.
And see them bonus feats? He's got near as many as the fighter, except he gets the good ones 4-6 levels earlier. How wonderful.
At level 9, the fighter finally gets the TH/DMg bonus a barbarian has had since level 1. With any weapon, not one weapon.
Take out the bonus feats. They are bonuses, like spells.
Take out the dead levels that are nothing but a low level ability scaling.
Give the fighter something at EVERY level. Don't make him blow feats to get something that should be part of his class. His feats are there to compensate for not getting spells and rage powers. He still needs good class features.
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One of my key points for ANY fighter rewrite is getting a combat bonus at level 1. Not a feat. An honest to goodness combat bonus, just like every other martial class.
It's rare to see.