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A lot of people don't really like it, but it is how the game is designed. Pathfinder Unchained allows for alternate rules so you get most of the same bonuses without having the magical item.
Yes definitely. Im not sure what could be done to change things but I agree.
A lot of people don't really like it, but it is how the game is designed. Pathfinder Unchained allows for alternate rules so you get most of the same bonuses without having the magical item.
Pretty much this. For good or for ill, gear/WBL is a second progression track characters move along just like XP.
A level 20 fighter, a master of war who fights demons and gods, is only going to naturally be marginally (+2) stronger than her level one, wet behind the ears slightly better than an average joe just starting out counterpart. And despite having potentially years of adventures and heroics under her belt she's going to be no tougher, no more agile, no faster, no smarter, no wiser and no better at dealing with people than when she started out that adventure.
... and paradoxically despite theoretically being no tougher (same con score) she's dramatically better at taking punishment and would take a dozen direct hits from an orc's falchion when in the past one good blow could have knocked her down. She can also go jump off mountains for fun. So that's something.
But it still feels weird that at the core of that her physical and mental faculties hardly improve at all.
Um, this isn't a complaint about magic items. This appears to be a complaint that a character's stats don't change much as the character levels up. Magic items relate only because they can change stats.
"No tougher" means same Con, ignoring accumulated hits points. "No more agile" means same Dex, ignoring agility-based skills and feats. "No faster" means same movement rate, ignoring class abilities and feats. "No smarter" means same Int, ignoring accumulated skill ranks. "No wiser" means same Wis, ignoring the character chosing feats and optional class abilities that fit her style. "No better at dealing with people" means same Cha, ignoring social skills and feats. The "marginally (+2) stronger" refers to the five +1 attribute increases, which if all applied to the same attribute result in the its modifier increasing by +2 or +3.
This complaint is like complaining that Albert Einstein had the same IQ score when enrolled in high school as when he won the Nobel Prize in physics. (The story about Einstein earning bad grades in school is a myth. A journalist looked at Einstein's old report cards and saw a bunch of 1's. The journalist did not ask about the school's grading system, where a 1 is the best grade.) Even though Einstein's IQ score did not change, he learned a lot of physics--that would be Knowledge(physics) in Pathfinder skills--during those years.
I have played the Legend of the Five Rings roleplaying system, where experience points are spent to advance skills and rings. The five rings are the attributes, and raising a ring by +1 cost a lot of xp, but it is the most efficient way to make a character more powerful. It is also pretty dull. Learning new skills is more fun for roleplaying.
IDK man, the fighter example is a bit weaker given recent supplements.
Cue fighter threads #4,216-7,891 as of recent memory.
Rogue's got an unchained version allowing them to do all kinds of fun things.
Especially thanks to Armed Bravery and/or Improved Bravery, fighters not getting 'wiser' is really incorrect.
Also Armor Training literally makes them faster and more agile, as in that's the feature's entire purpose. And Master Armorer is a thing so they can craft their own suits of Celestial Plate or Mithral Full plate of Speed, or whatever they feel they need, without level dipping or anything. Granted that involves a magic item, but one the fighter only gets by being smarter, wiser, and more experienced.
Really the entire premise of the thread can be summed up as:
tl;dr: I haven't read any of the supplements the guys I'm complaining to wrote to literally fix the things I'm complaining about.
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It's all just a carryover from "original" 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons, the base underlying Pathfinder. There have been a number of attempts to develop an alternate system to re-balance things without items, or to provide automatic bonuses to characters over the years. The last one I've seen was in Pathfinder Unchained.
Personally I think you should get a +1 to a physical stat and +1 to a mental stat at every even level. I have never been a fan of getting stat boost from magic items except for the belt of giant strength and the gauntlets of ogre power.
I do like the rules they have for Pathfinder Unchained for bonuses coming from level not equipment.
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Well, there ARE some system-based reasons for this, and most of it has to do with a character's CR.
For the most part, characters derive the huge majority of power from their class levels and their wealth by level (which provides 1 CR). If you got four more points in EVERY stat, and some natural armor to go with it, your CR would go up by a whopping 1. (This is the Advanced Template.)
The game kind of assumes that your main ability increases will come from spending part of your wealth on the appropriate items. This is specifically pushing you past the "normal" limits of your character, while level-based increases are the result of your training. Using Automatic Bonus Progression from PF Unchained makes these increases more innate, and is probably the best way to get the feel you're looking for.
To be fair the advanced template is extremely bad and does not accurately reflect anything in the CR system. When placed on low-CR creatures it tends to overpower them, while placed on high CR creatures tends to turn them into an experience pinata.
Comparing anything to the advanced template as if it were some sort of even bronze standard, let alone gold, is folly.
A level 20 fighter, a master of war who fights demons and gods, is only going to naturally be marginally (+2) stronger than her level one, wet behind the ears slightly better than an average joe just starting out counterpart. And despite having potentially years of adventures and heroics under her belt she's going to be no tougher, no more agile, no faster, no smarter, no wiser and no better at dealing with people than when she started out that adventure.
Until you throw in a huge pile of magic items of course.
Now naturally she's going to be better at combat (+19 better to be specific). Or at least, hitting people. The actual greatsword strike itself just gets bumped up from 2d6+6 to 2d6+9 which is pretty inconsequential.
She also gets a bit better at shrugging off conditions (+10, +6 and +6 better) and paradoxically despite theoretically being no tougher (same con score) she's dramatically better at taking punishment and would take a dozen direct hits from an orc's falchion when in the past one good blow could have knocked her down. She can also go jump off mountains for fun. So that's something.
But it still feels weird that at the core of that her physical and mental faculties hardly improve at all.
Your premise is wrong. :-)
In PF, class abilities dominate magic items.
BAB:
Fighter 20 has +19 BAB from class levels alone.
+5 Strength means either +2 or +3 BAB & Damage.
Class features add more BAB, as do feats.
Maybe a total of 25+.
What can magic add?
The usual max +6 Strength for +3 BAB
Weapon +5 BAB
Size bonus +2 Strength for+1 BAB [perm enlarge]
Comp +1 Bonus Ioun Stone
And a few others.
Maybe a total of 12+.
Saves:
Fighter 20 has +10/+6/+6 over Fighter 1
Feats like Iron Will and such can add to this.
Magic has +5 Cloak.
Again, class wins over magic.
HP:
19d10+ConMod is a pile of HP.
Toughness can add HP.
Retraining can add HP.
It would probably take a wish to get more HP.
Again, class wins over magic.
Agile/Faster/Wiser:
Magic wins here
Smarter:
38 skill points is a lot smarter.
Headband +4 can beat this.
Magic wins here
Dealing with people:
Traits, feats, skills can outdo magic, if the fighter cares.
... But it still feels weird that at the core of that her physical and mental faculties hardly improve at all.
Fighters are dedicated to the physical arts. They do get much better by non-magic than they do by magic at this. Expecting them to be Renascence Men with only Fighter levels, however, is quite a stretch.
/cevah
Leveling up is about gaining more experience, it's about skill, whether that be actual skills, getting better at bypassing your enemies defense i.e. higher BAB, or learning magic like spellcasters do. The boosts to stats you get are pretty reasonable, especially as it could only take a few months from level 1 to level 20 in some APs. Also don't forget that 20 str you started out with is already the peak of human (or half elf or whatever) ability, so the fact you pushed it up to 25 is impressive.
Remove stat boosting items or at least quadruple the price/make them artefacts. They destroy the meaningfulness of level advancement.
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Putting the magic back into magic items is one of the things 5th ed does very well I think.
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what a timely thread
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I heavily suggest using the automatic bonus progression.
A lot of people don't really like it, but it is how the game is designed. Pathfinder Unchained allows for alternate rules so you get most of the same bonuses without having the magical item.
But a lot more people DO like the collection of toys, which is while some folks may grumble, others keep collecting with all the enthuisasm of a model train gathering.
I like the automatic bonus progression, it frees you up to buy magical items that are fun and not just needed to survive.
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A lot of people don't really like it, but it is how the game is designed. Pathfinder Unchained allows for alternate rules so you get most of the same bonuses without having the magical item.But a lot more people DO like the collection of toys, which is while some folks may grumble, others keep collecting with all the enthuisasm of a model train gathering.
I needs mah stuff
I've only felt like this in the forums.
Online there are system assumptions and player expectations that you have specific kinds of items at particular levels, which is bad enough for the +X items but some builds and classes start relying are specific items, which I think it kind of bad for the game because if you're getting plusses they should be coming from the class instead of taking up your item slots where items that actually do things should go. Beyond that it leaves less room to find items that you never knew about or something fantastical that changes how you play your character. Its just one trick ponies with a couple of go-to efficient ways that leads characters to sell the magic items they get so that they can buy the item they planned for effectively killing any sense of wonder or discovery, sometimes even evading creativity and story.
But at the table, I rarely see a +3 weapon and the party is often working with two or three non consumable magic items each. Although I don't see late levels often(playing a campaign for a full campaign is very hard apparently) We finished off Curse of the Crimson Throne with very few pieces of magical equipment.
A level 20 fighter, a master of war who fights demons and gods, is only going to naturally be marginally (+2) stronger than her level one, wet behind the ears slightly better than an average joe just starting out counterpart. And despite having potentially years of adventures and heroics under her belt she's going to be no tougher, no more agile, no faster, no smarter, no wiser and no better at dealing with people than when she started out that adventure.
Until you throw in a huge pile of magic items of course.
Now naturally she's going to be better at combat (+19 better to be specific). Or at least, hitting people. The actual greatsword strike itself just gets bumped up from 2d6+6 to 2d6+9 which is pretty inconsequential.
She also gets a bit better at shrugging off conditions (+10, +6 and +6 better) and paradoxically despite theoretically being no tougher (same con score) she's dramatically better at taking punishment and would take a dozen direct hits from an orc's falchion when in the past one good blow could have knocked her down. She can also go jump off mountains for fun. So that's something.
But it still feels weird that at the core of that her physical and mental faculties hardly improve at all.
Your premise is wrong. :-)
In PF, class abilities dominate magic items.
BAB:
Fighter 20 has +19 BAB from class levels alone.
+5 Strength means either +2 or +3 BAB & Damage.
Class features add more BAB, as do feats.
Maybe a total of 25+.What can magic add?
The usual max +6 Strength for +3 BAB
Weapon +5 BAB
Size bonus +2 Strength for+1 BAB [perm enlarge]
Comp +1 Bonus Ioun Stone
And a few others.
Maybe a total of 12+.Saves:
Fighter 20 has +10/+6/+6 over Fighter 1
Feats like Iron Will and such can add to this.
Magic has +5 Cloak.
Again, class wins over magic.HP:
19d10+ConMod is a pile of HP.
Toughness can add HP.
Retraining can add HP.
It would probably take a wish to get more HP.
Again, class wins over magic....
AC, save DCs, special movement types (burrow, flight, teleporting), etc are dominating by magic more than class abilities.
While, you say class wins over magic: your example fighter gained 5 from magic, only 6 Will from class. General Feats like Iron Will aren't class features. Magic won is 1 point difference.
Your average hp is 109. Magic (+6 con) adds 57, that is more than 1/2 your life.
I would like to see masterwork get bonuses beyond the standard +1, lots of games have masterwork bonuses up to +5.
Nothing game breaking about it!
This is essentially what the regular enhancement bonus is, and one could get there using Master Craftsman and get there purely by mundane means.
The only real difference between an enhancement bonus from masterworking and from CMA&A is how it interacts with an Antimagic field.
That can be fixed with house rules.
While, you say class wins over magic: your example fighter gained 5 from magic, only 6 Will from class. General Feats like Iron Will aren't class features. Magic won is 1 point difference
Pretty sure bonus feats are a class feature for fighters, along with a few other classes to a lesser degree, and they certainly make up a big part of leveling up, you can't just ignore them to make your argument about magic items being more important than levels stronger.
...A level 20 fighter, a master of war who fights demons and gods, is only going to naturally be marginally (+2) stronger than her level one, wet behind the ears slightly better than an average joe just starting out counterpart. And despite having potentially years of adventures and heroics under her belt she's going to be no tougher, no more agile, no faster, no smarter, no wiser and no better at dealing with people than when she started out that adventure.
Until you throw in a huge pile of magic items of course.
Now naturally she's going to be better at combat (+19 better to be specific). Or at least, hitting people. The actual greatsword strike itself just gets bumped up from 2d6+6 to 2d6+9 which is pretty inconsequential.
She also gets a bit better at shrugging off conditions (+10, +6 and +6 better) and paradoxically despite theoretically being no tougher (same con score) she's dramatically better at taking punishment and would take a dozen direct hits from an orc's falchion when in the past one good blow could have knocked her down. She can also go jump off mountains for fun. So that's something.
But it still feels weird that at the core of that her physical and mental faculties hardly improve at all.
Your premise is wrong. :-)
In PF, class abilities dominate magic items.
BAB:
Fighter 20 has +19 BAB from class levels alone.
+5 Strength means either +2 or +3 BAB & Damage.
Class features add more BAB, as do feats.
Maybe a total of 25+.What can magic add?
The usual max +6 Strength for +3 BAB
Weapon +5 BAB
Size bonus +2 Strength for+1 BAB [perm enlarge]
Comp +1 Bonus Ioun Stone
And a few others.
Maybe a total of 12+.Saves:
Fighter 20 has +10/+6/+6 over Fighter 1
Feats like Iron Will and such can add to this.
Magic has +5 Cloak.
Again, class wins over magic.HP:
19d10+ConMod is a pile of HP.
Toughness can add HP.
Retraining can add HP.
It would probably take a wish to get more HP.
Again, class wins over
Fighters have two ways of boosting Will saves, Improved Bravery (requires CHA 13) makes Bravery apply to all mind-affecting effects (so, pretty much all of them) and Armed Bravery (requires you to not take an archetype that gives up Weapon Training) which also applies your Bravery to all Will saves.
Armor Specialization gives fighters in full plate the best AC ever.
Fighters can make their own magic armor at the cost of either one of their armor training numerical bonuses, or a feat. They also get to max out Craft (armor & shields) for free. There is a lot of utility in that, Celestial Plate comes to mind, for the best medium armor in existence that can let you fly.
You can get that straight from the class.
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It just boils down to what feels meaningful.
Flaming sword is very different from Sword of +1 to important stats.
People feel the flames. They know that fire is more than just extra damage and play with it. It usually makes them feel more involved, because they now got extra tool to do stuff with.
To turn the question on its head; Yes, I do feel that magic items provide too high a percentage of a character's power. But more than that, I feel like the relatively low power of the average magic item doesn't reflect classic fantasy tropes very well.
It doesn't fit the tropes YOU feel are classic. Have you considered that Gygax and company were drawing from a different set of tropes, the list of which you'd find in Gygax's original Bibliography in the First Edition books?
Fantasy has never been as monolithic a themeset as some here seem to imagine.
Many seem to think for example that Tolkien was a major part of D+D whereas Gygax denied that aside from lifting a name or two, that it had any significant contribution. Having read quite a few different authors, I'd tend to agree.
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Yeah, relying on external sources like items for power is nothing but a very bad idea to me, especially if it's secretly baked in the game math. And probably the majority of people where I live in, who tend to severely berate on MMO characters who rely on good gear bought with cash...
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Has anyone use the Automatic bonus Progression?
Seems like it would allow more flavourful magical items to be used in the slots that were already taken by items that were needed in those slots.
Belt of Strength +2 is needed (sorta)
Cord of Stubborn Resolve is kinda fun and has cool abilities.
Yeah, relying on external sources like items for power is nothing but a very bad idea to me, especially if it's secretly baked in the game math. And probably the majority of people where I live in, who tend to severely berate on MMO characters who rely on good gear bought with cash...
Keep in mind that in those MMO's they're still expecting people to have the good gear, what they're berating on is how it was obtained.
Jumping from a 1E/2E background to PF, the significant magic item requirements did jump out at me. I liked to play more a magic as treasure vs buying magic. I loved how players would get excited every time they found a magic item in my old campaigns since they were not required except to hit some monster types.
You can still use treasure as the primary source of magic with something like a PC "Wish List" which help you know what to consider putting in hordes to help keep them up with what they'd need on WBL. Its not RAW, but you could even do that with special properties as either an oil or scroll that the PC could have applied to a weapon vs going to a shop to buy a Keen weapon.
As other have recommended the automatic bonus progression from unchained is a tool that can get your players off the magic-mart requirement to keep up with the game's inherent mechanical requirements. At the very least, the table in unchained is a tool for a GM who still wants most magic items to be drops, since it gives you the targets for magic, to hit, stat-boosters, etc that the game assumes you're getting by certain levels.
Having just looked it over again I'm leaning very heavily towards implementing the ABP in our home game.
You seem to be forgetting those critters that needed a +2 or +3 weapon to be hurt. Not DR, but flat out immunity to damage from weapons without the requisite +.
To answer the thread's question: No.
I actually really like the "Christmas tree effect" since it makes logical sense.
Between two equally skilled people, the one who is better equipped should have better chance of winning *any* contest. Better equipment can and *should* even be able to close the gap between a less skilled competitor and more skilled one. If this was not the case, then what would be the point of making equipment in the first place?
Stories tend to want to us tell us the opposite and people tend to want to be the punchy underdog with worn-out equipment, relying on old methods and hard work to win. But the opposite is true in reality. A better equipped, better funded, competitor using cutting edge techniques is going to have a significant advantage assuming they work equally hard. That's literally the whole point of progress!
That being said, while I like the Christmas tree effect, I dislike how limited actually interesting options are. Particularly in light of the recent Ultimate Equipment errata. I would prefer magic items that were more then just straight +X to Y, but ones that are worth it are becoming increasingly rare.
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Has anyone use the Automatic bonus Progression?
Seems like it would allow more flavourful magical items to be used in the slots that were already taken by items that were needed in those slots.
Belt of Strength +2 is needed (sorta)
Cord of Stubborn Resolve is kinda fun and has cool abilities.
I have tried Automatic Bonus Progression and highly endorse it. It eliminates the need for flavorless magic items like cloaks of resistance, allowing PCs to gather more interesting gear.
It also keeps PCs more or less on a uniform power curve, at least when it comes to stats. That means that somebody who is less experienced in the game and who doesn't know that it's expected to have something that gives you a +X to hit at certain levels isn't penalized for not knowing one of the unspoken assumptions of the game.
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On the contrary, I think they derive too little of their power. Think about it:people didn't land on the moon by training really hard until they could survive there, people build a rocket. An item of great power. Humans today aren't any stronger, faster or smarter than humans in history, but we sure as hell have more power.
To turn the question on its head; Yes, I do feel that magic items provide too high a percentage of a character's power. But more than that, I feel like the relatively low power of the average magic item doesn't reflect classic fantasy tropes very well.It doesn't fit the tropes YOU feel are classic. Have you considered that Gygax and company were drawing from a different set of tropes, the list of which you'd find in Gygax's original Bibliography in the First Edition books?
Fantasy has never been as monolithic a themeset as some here seem to imagine.
Many seem to think for example that Tolkien was a major part of D+D whereas Gygax denied that aside from lifting a name or two, that it had any significant contribution. Having read quite a few different authors, I'd tend to agree.
Yeah, remember how Corwin of Amber had all those little fiddly magic doodads that added up to impressive power? Oh, that's right. He had one very good magic sword with a fragment of The Pattern. And Merlin had that one ring that made Sauron's look like a paperweight and had his uncle's Pattern sword for a while before giving it to his I think second cousin.
And King Arthur had two artifact grade items (Excalibur and Excalibur's sheath) and nothing else.
I'm not aware of any non-comic fantasies about collecting lots of unimpressive magic items on anywhere near D&D's scale. Tolkien is actually the closest with cloaks of elvenkind for everyone and the rope of untying on command.
Responding one by one per turn.
1. In comparison to normal Humans, Corwin like his relatives is essentially comparing Q to Red Shirts. And he was beaten quite badly by brothers who DID have Artifact level doodads, and he frequently depended on his Artifact level blade. And not many PC's had the means to destroy AN ENTIRE CAMPAIGN UNIVERSE running through their veins.
2. If PC's only had to fight the kind of foes Arthur fought, they wouldn't need any magic either for the most part... just a good cold iron blade.
3. You obviously haven't read Moorcock, whose heroes frequently went on quests to obtain major artifacts of power... which would be promptly taken away from them when the job is done.
Your biggest error however is assuming that D+D and it's ilk were modeled as story driven games. Which they never have been. It's a wargame, and building a PC and his items is pretty much like building a minatures war army.... a collection of pieces.
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To turn the question on its head; Yes, I do feel that magic items provide too high a percentage of a character's power. But more than that, I feel like the relatively low power of the average magic item doesn't reflect classic fantasy tropes very well.It doesn't fit the tropes YOU feel are classic. Have you considered that Gygax and company were drawing from a different set of tropes, the list of which you'd find in Gygax's original Bibliography in the First Edition books?
Fantasy has never been as monolithic a themeset as some here seem to imagine.
Many seem to think for example that Tolkien was a major part of D+D whereas Gygax denied that aside from lifting a name or two, that it had any significant contribution. Having read quite a few different authors, I'd tend to agree.
Yeah, remember how Corwin of Amber had all those little fiddly magic doodads that added up to impressive power? Oh, that's right. He had one very good magic sword with a fragment of The Pattern. And Merlin had that one ring that made Sauron's look like a paperweight and had his uncle's Pattern sword for a while before giving it to his I think second cousin.
And King Arthur had two artifact grade items (Excalibur and Excalibur's sheath) and nothing else.
I'm not aware of any non-comic fantasies about collecting lots of unimpressive magic items on anywhere near D&D's scale. Tolkien is actually the closest with cloaks of elvenkind for everyone and the rope of untying on command.
>I'm not aware of any non-comic fantasies about collecting lots of unimpressive magic items on anywhere near D&D's scale.
Then you should get out/read more. Harry frigging Potter. By the end of the books their party(HP+Hermione+Ron) had:
-at least 2 bags of holding
-at least 3 wands
-"deluminator"
-all 3 epic deathly hallows
-marauder's map
-at least one good flying broom
-a pair of two-way mirrors for communication, and specially enchanted golden coins for the same purpose
-epic godric griffindor's sword(which appears as plot demands, but arguably is also one of the party's items)
-various small magical trinkets(trick items from Wheasley twins, magical photos, chess, etc)
Now, HP universe operates under different rules, mainly related to more prevalent spellcasting(a lot of useful PF items are replicated with a simple spell in HP), but you can still see the point-their relatively low-level party had a nice assortment of magical items by the end of the campaign, and most of their strength comes from them. What is Harry Potter without a wand and his cloak? A glorified muggle. What is a lv20 pathfinder wizard without his stuff? A horrifying death machine capable of slaughtering whole crowds of common folk with his bare hands.
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Then you should get out/read more. Harry frigging Potter. By the end of the books their party(HP+Hermione+Ron) had:
I will quibble with you on one thing here. Most of the magic items HP had were items that did unique or odd things.
So while he did have a lot of magic items, to contrast with Pathfinder.. he didn't have a headband that ever so slightly improved his spellcasting and a magic ring that made him a little bit tougher and so on.
That's where I think the real dichotomy lies. Not in the number of magic items, but in what they do. Magic swords in fiction often have some sort of special property. They glow in the presence of orcs or they can burst into flame or whatever.
Pathfinder however runs primarily on magic items that provide minor bonuses to various things you can do. Your magic sword... makes you slightly better at hitting someone and hit them slightly harder when you do. It's a lot more video gamey than what people are comparing it to.
Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
The Al-Quidain setting had commonplace magic backed into the lore.
Medieval times had a surfeit of magical charms sold by wandering gypsies. These were not powerful artifacts, but things that made you a little better at something, or protected you from some specific thing.
Lovecraft had many magical items as well, and PF has a significant connection to him.
/cevah
...Pathfinder however runs primarily on magic items that provide minor bonuses to various things you can do. Your magic sword... makes you slightly better at hitting someone and hit them slightly harder when you do. It's a lot more video gamey than what people are comparing it to...Squiggit found the turn of phrase I couldn't quite think of in my earlier post. A multitude of petty magic widgets whose overall effect is to make someone perceptibly better at fighting isn't much like movies or books or comics*, in which there's generally one item but its effects are a lot more impressive.
* Except Batman. Darn you, Batman.
I'd say this is a good thing, if it was just one big item then you'd have to go ages with no upgrades then get a huge boost, much better to gradually get better.
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...Pathfinder however runs primarily on magic items that provide minor bonuses to various things you can do. Your magic sword... makes you slightly better at hitting someone and hit them slightly harder when you do. It's a lot more video gamey than what people are comparing it to...Squiggit found the turn of phrase I couldn't quite think of in my earlier post. A multitude of petty magic widgets whose overall effect is to make someone perceptibly better at fighting isn't much like movies or books or comics*, in which there's generally one item but its effects are a lot more impressive.
* Except Batman. Darn you, Batman.
* Batman -- Quintisential tool user
* Green Arrow, Hawkeye -- Many different kinds of arrows* Antman -- Shrink/enlarge gadgets
* Wonder Woman -- Bracers, Tierra, Lasso, Plane
* James Bond -- Lots of gadgets
* Maxwel Smart -- Spy spoof with odd gadgets
* Ironman -- High power gadgets
* Spiderman -- Web spinners, tracking spiders
I am sure there are others. :-)
Superheroes without superpowers tend to use the gadget approach.
/cevah