Enhancing Core

[Zirlock]

I’ve just re-watched Tonya Woldridge and John Compton’s recent interview on Know Direction, where they mention, among many things, the Core Campaign.  Tonya specifically mentioned a possible rebranding/initiative/brainstorming of the Core Campaign.  As an avid GM and Player of PFS Core games in Paris, I thought I would put my thoughts out there for discussion, with the aim of giving the Pathfinder Society team some comments/anecdotal evidence/feedback on the subject.  I'm looking for more of a discussion of enhancing Core for those who already play it, than perhaps getting Core to work where it isn't.  I’m really interested in those who play or run Core in their areas, and if you feel any of the options below would enhance the experience for Players and GMs of all Levels of experience. I’ve not been playing PFS long enough to consider some of the longer term or indirect effects of the thoughts presented below, so would appreciate any insight there too.

Without going into a great deal of context as preamble, I started running PFS 6 or 7 months ago (at PaizoCon France), and have stuck with the Core Campaign for several reasons.  The two main ones being: simplicity (ease of introducing new Players and simplifying my task as a GM who has spent the last 30 years running games using Frank Mentor’s basic D&D ‘rainbow’ books) and the ability to generate tables in a split community (a group of diehard PFS Players who have played almost every scenario available, but only in Standard, and a growing group of new Players, who have playing almost nothing).  Core gives us all we need at present for the majority of our games.  

Clearly, there will eventually be a point that some newer Players want more than is in Core, and will switch over to Standard, and plans are in place to deal with that evolution as it arrives.  However, I feel the value of Core could be enhanced, and given more longevity by adding a bit of flavour.  The challenge I feel it eventually faces is not that it has simply fewer options, but that it is rather bland when compared to what is available to connect it to the world of Golarian and the lore of the Pathfinder Society than that allowed by Standard.  If the expectation of Core is that people will eventually switch across to Standard, I completely understand why commercially that is preferable. However, including more in-game Pathfinder Society themed options does not necessarily harm that transition; indeed it could make it smoother. 

I’ve thought of four approaches to perhaps enhance the Core Campaign in terms of flavour and mechanics.  I have also some thoughts on possible GM or Player Boons for Core adding some elements from outside the CRB in the same way that Race Boons do for the Standard Campaign, which was something John made a note to consider during the interview, but I will save that for another post. So for enhancing Core, very briefly:

A. CRB Core.  Do nothing is always an option and should be considered.  Don’t change anything about the key presumptions and books necessary to play Core.  Perhaps future Chronicles could always look to include something of value to the Core Campaign (mainly minor equipment, possibly a spell, etc), without actually creating a large overhead of work.  This currently happens as far as I can see in Season 7, although you get little value from the older seasons.  Adds a (little?) more work for the team on a regular basis to consider Core when creating Chronicles.  Does not change much with the theme of the Core Campaign.  You still must own the books the extra content comes from.  

B. Core+ (Guide).  Use the Guide to add some additional options for the Core Campaign, as it currently does in allowing you to buy a Wayfinder or use Faction Traits without the requirement for additional resources owned .  Given that it isn’t printed, I’m unsure if a handful of extra pages once a year creates extra cost, beyond the expenditure to create and layout the content.  Perhaps themed minor mundane equipment could be added to the Faction writeup in the same manner as the Wayfinder (Blunt Arrows for Silver Crusade, Wrist Sheath for The Exchange, etc); perhaps the same for some vanities and Wayfinder enhancements.  A (significant)? amount of work once a year for the team when the new Guide is published.  Adds a little more in-game Pathfinder Society flavour to the Core Campaign.  You would need no other books than the CRB to play as all additional elements would be in the Guide.

C. Core+ (Chronicle).  Use scenario Chronicles (and I include Chronicle Boons from other sources such as Holiday Boons and Tales Boons) to add options to the Core Campaign.  Use up any available space on the chronicle to add mundane equipment, vanities and other elements that would fit.  Adds a (very significant?) amount of work on a regular basis to create each Chronicle, as well as consider the effect that adding each item has.  Could add lots of Society flavour to the Core Campaign and would certainly make Chronicles very valuable to your Core Character.  You must own the books the extra content comes from.

D. Pathfinder Society Core Campaign.  Allow the three Pathfinder Society published Resources (Seeker of Secrets, PFS Field Guide and PFS Primer) to be added to the list of allowable resources for the Core Campaign.  Although there is always the danger of ‘mission creep’ and petitions could be raised for other resources to be added too, I think these three naturally complement the Core Campaign without opening the door too wide to a Standard(-). They add the much needed Pathfinder Society flavour and lore, whilst retaining the very simple nature of the Core Campaign.  Hopefully, it shouldn’t add a great of work for the team, since the Additional Resources document allows nearly everything in these books for the Standard Campaign, so I presume that the content is well balanced for PFS.  You would need to own these books (mostly available on PDF only these days), but it doesn’t expand the resource requirement significantly if you wish to purchase a Vanity, learn a spell, buy an item or take a Pathfinder Society Archetype.  Perhaps we may even get a new Pathfinder Society publication in the future to add to these illustrious three, which could take the Core Campaign into account from the outset.

I’m not advocating drastic change, nor the addition of huge amounts of extra content, I just feel the Core Campaign as it is at the moment would benefit from being enhanced a little with some the richness of Golarion and the Society.  My personal preference is for Option D, as that seems like the least amount of work for the PFS team, given that the resources are already available, and has the greatest effect on the Campaign, but has a firm limit as the three additional resources are Pathfinder Society specific.  I’d also like to draw attention to the Chronicle element of Option A, which could hopefully further enhance the Core Campaign in a relevant, limited and balanced way.

Your thoughts?

Zirlock
Core Campaign Champion (unofficial!)

[Arutema]

Quote:

Use scenario Chronicles (and I include Chronicle Boons from other sources such as Holiday Boons and Tales Boons) to add options to the Core Campaign. Use up any available space on the chronicle to add mundane equipment, vanities and other elements that would fit. Adds a (very significant?) amount of work on a regular basis to create each Chronicle, as well as consider the effect that adding each item has. Could add lots of Society flavour to the Core Campaign and would certainly make Chronicles very valuable to your Core Character. You must own the books the extra content comes from.

This is already in place, so long as you're playing recent releases in core. The problem here is that most GMs and organizers seem to plan core games as replays of season 0-2 material, before non-core stuff existed or was widely used in the campaign.

[EvilMinion]

Would be nice to have some vanity options to spend prestige points on.
The PFS Field Guide and Primer would allow be nice for that.

Would be nice to have more Pathfinder background info... so I like this thought.

[Yiroep]

Honestly, the thing I miss most about Core is the limited deity options for clerics/paladins. I'm not sure how to implement something like that, but it would be kind of cool to have that expanded. :)

Other than that, I am a huge fan of it and have gotten traction in our area to play Core quite well. I find that most players don't want to try it, but the majority of players that try it begin to like it (not all, but most). We have a following of players that play both here, but again the majority just play Classic and that's it.

Pretty good care has been considered when putting items on chronicles in regards to Core campaign recently. Just sucks that there's a backlog of scenarios/modules that have items in them that are not available in Core but because they are such commonplace items they were not on the chronicle sheet. (Hundreds of blunt arrows from a certain module that weren't on the chronicle, I'm looking at you)

One thing I like about opening things up for Core on chronicles is that it's actually exciting again to find things on chronicles. Boons are nice regardless as well as unique items, but for a Core character, a larger part of the chronicle sheet is now more exciting.

[Zirlock]

Thanks for all the replies thus far.

-

Kelly - Yes there are Chronicles which offer equipment to the Core Player, outside of the CRB. However, all I have seen is equipment, and I'm not sure if this is a byproduct of Chronicle creation for that scenario or an specific intent for the Core Campaign. If John Compton or Tonya Wooldridge have the opportunity to stop by this thread, it would be great to get any insight to this.

I understand it negates the need to purchase other Paizo products, but I am very much in favour of the method used in:

Scenario:

7-05 School of Spirits for the Haunt Siphon

than that used in:

Scenario:

7-07 Trouble in Tamran for the Elixir of Thundering Voice

as the former allows you to use the Chronicle sheet rather than an additional resource, thus keeping the Core Campaign limited by resource and, oh I don't know, it just makes finding the equipment from the first scenario feel like a real treasure! However, it also takes up quite a bit of the Chronicle Sheet, which I often see John saying is a limitation for many initiatives.

-

EvilMinion - Thanks for the positive reply. Yes, allowing the extra resources would give more options for spending PP, as well as giving the new Player an introduction into the lore and history of the Pathfinder Society and Golarion, and really feel like Pathfinder textbooks! In particular, the Society Suggestions entries in the Field Guide are an excellent resource for new Players, and by encouraging them to get the PDF in addition to a CRB, I feel that they would be both better prepared and more immersed in the campaign; leading to more fun all round.

-

Andrew - A lack of deity options is not something I have run into, so I can't comment from experience. Adding a deity in a Chronicle might be possibility if you have encountered one of their adherents during the adventure and been 'converted'; perhaps allowing you to create a new Character of that faith even in the Core Campaign. Otherwise you are in to opening up the resources, which is the 'mission creep' danger I am aware of if even the three Society books were allowed.

Andrew Roberts wrote:

Pretty good care has been considered when putting items on chronicles in regards to Core campaign recently.

Can I just confirm, is that insight from your work as a VL for John and Tonya, or a personal opinion based on what you have seen in recent scenarios?

And finally, I agree with the enthusiasm to check a Chronicle in depth for anything mundane or magical that might benefit a Core Character. However, I'd rather that allowing a Character blunt arrows or other mundane or Pathfinder Specific equipment was not limited to a scenario Chronicle. It creates the frustration that if you did't play with the 'right' character you lost an opportunity you didn't know you might have had. Less fun all round!

-

I'm keen to hear more feedback where Core has been successful and what opening up some more options, albeit in a limited fashion, might do.

Zirlock
Core Campaign Champion (unofficial!)

[DM Beckett]

I'm on the fence for Core, mainly due to a few aspects of it I'm not fond about.

As a DM, it is sometimes nice to go back to basics a bit, not needing to worry about how much of the newer material is not going to steamroll over scenarios that where written earlier or didn't take into account some things. And I'm not going to lie that the Magus and Summoner not being allowed is a huge bonus.

However, there are plenty of options, mostly mundane ones, that I really do miss. I mean the Masterwork Backpack, while simple, is can be a great help at lower levels, for everyone. I'm just so used to buying one asap that it's possible it's more annoying than it really is an issue. Other things, too, like the Masterwork Survival Kit, Agile Breastplate, Four Mirror Armor, and things like that, once I've played with them, not being allowed to in Core is a noticeable pet peeve.

Additionally, there are a few really nice options out there that are just vast improvements and very fun things to look forward to. In my case, Blessing of Fervor and Burst of Radiance are top of the list. But, even things like the Spark Orison are, to me, just too iconic and cool to not include, but, just like the above items, as it you basically have to hunt for Chronicle Sheets or Scenarios to unlock them, which I don't think should be the point. As was already mentioned, even some things like deity options can get really annoying being so limited, but even more so than that, a lot of good work has been put into adding small bits of variation between the deities, such as an extra option for Summon Monster spells for each deity. Core not allowing these things kind of makes it feel more bland, in my opinion.

Another issue I've had with Core play is that, from what I've experienced, it is really serving the complete opposite audience that it was, I believe, meant for. Rather than being a stepping stone to include and introduce new players, it mainly seems to be being utilized my a lot of us that have already played or ran many of the other games and have trouble either getting a regular group together or playing something for credit. So, in some ways it actually makes it more difficult to introduce new players into an existing group where level ranges become an issue.

Another pet peeve of mine, but one that's also sort of the intrinsic point of Core Play is I find it annoying for it's own sake not to be able to utilize a lot of the material I have purchased, and a great deal of it I specifically purchased to be allowed to use for PFS play. The only real reasonable fix for this that I can think of is to maybe have Core Play allow each character to utilize Feat, Spell, and Equipment options from any one single other PFS Legal Book, but, at the same time that might reintroduce some of the table variation and escalation of power that Core tries to avoid.

Finally, I really hate the name(s), or rather the rebranding of the normal campaign. When I hear "Classic", I think of Core Play, as in let's play this using the "classic" rules. Hopefully they find something a lot better, and that doesn't start with a "C". Or just leave it as PFS vs PFS Core.

The two biggest things I'd like to have looked at is some way for Players to be able to choose some sort of outside of Core option, even if it's limited. Like I mentioned, being allowed to draw from one, and only one other book (if you own it and it's legal otherwise) for gear, spells, and feats may be something to look at, even if it's limited more.

The other would be to opening up some of the mundane, but very common gear as always available, notably the Masterwork Backpack and a few other items.

[Zirlock]

DM Beckett - Thanks for sharing some of your musings on Core. As I've played little Standard compared to Core, I can't yet comment on the things I'd miss :-)

I appreciate that over the years handy-to-have equipment has been introduced to Pathfinder that benefits the Character or the Player. The problem with cherry picking things to add is that it is always going to come down to personal preference; which is why I favour the addition of the Pathfinder Society books en masse, with perhaps seasonal or chronicle additions to reflect thematic additions. Your favourite 'must have' item is going to be different to mine, which might be different to those running the campaign (who would clearly get to choose what gets added, which would no doubt be upsetting to someone). Of course, there are ways to mitigate this; they could run a competition every few months, and the winner gets to add a single piece of equipment to the Core Campaign of their choice (which would also promote the Core Campaign - you've got to be in it to win it!). Another 'controlled' option might be a Boon that allowed you to write in one piece of mundane equipment that this Character could purchase and use. You would get your Mw Backpack, someone else their Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath and Andrew would get his Blunt Arrows. What I don't like about this, is that it adds books to the Core Campaign, which, inversely to yourself, I don't want to see happen. I think allowing even CRB plus one, changes Core into Standard Lite, which I believe would really push it as a option for replay, rather than an method for a streamlined introduction to PFS. It also creates a increase in complexity in terms of character management; you may as well play Standard.

I've had a very different experience from you in terms of the Core Campaign. I don't really want to digress too much, but I will explain briefly for context: Most of the experienced Players over here much prefer Standard. However, as I organise many regular games in English and French as I recruit new Players, it gives them the opportunity to join in. So for me it serves both intended purposes and without it I would have had a difficult time establishing and maintaining the group. As I said in my opening post, I've no doubt some of my Players will want to eventually switch across to Standard to take advantage of the options there. However, many are casual Players, thus don't want to invest in a wealth of material or don't play regularly enough to worry about more than one or two Characters.

I like your idea about rebranding, and maybe that's perhaps something that Tonya was thinking about when she commented on the Core Campaign during the interview. I had a similar thought when I highlighted the text in my original post in terms of the Pathfinder Society Core Campaign. Probably anything like Beginner, Basic, Introductory isn't marketable and implies that you will move on to Advanced, sorry Standard, after a couple of levels ;-) Practical, perhaps even true, but I believe doing the Core campaign a disservice. Perhaps, if Core is to truly focus on new Players, and with the Pathfinder Academy and the library programme being set up, the Core Campaign should be more about a campaign option 'between' them and the Standard Campaign. A Pathfinder Institute if you willl, allowing new GMs to run games with a limited ruleset, primarily for new Players, but with experienced ones participating in a mentor role. That should only change the flavour of the campaign (my desire), rather than the mechanics. Again, I feel option D is the simplest way of achieving this.

But I will think further.........

Zirlock
Core Campaign Champion (unofficial!) & Dean of the Pathfinder Institute (equally presumptive and extremely unofficial!)

[Yiroep]

Jim Torbet wrote:

Can I just confirm, is that insight from your work as a VL for John and Tonya, or a personal opinion based on what you have seen in recent scenarios?

Completely personal observation from recent scenario chronicles. No hidden insight there. :)

[Jack Amy]

I like the idea of introducing the materials that were printed specifically for PFS into the core campaign. I can see people employing the slippery slope fallacy to argue that this would lead to more books being make Core legal further down the line, but the options afforded by these books really allow you to make a character that feels like a Pathfinder. I'll give this my thumbs up.

Also, just going to throw out that we could do with a better traits document, one that doesn't include illegal options (remove or replace) and that does include race traits (I imagine the 14 available in the APG would be appropriate here).

[EvilMinion]

Perhaps a new on-line product that has just additional core-available options. So as not to clutter up the resources list.
Language/Ethnicity stuff, some vanities, perhaps some wayfinder options, and the Pathfinder lore.

Though that would be its own can of worms, I suppose.

[Arutema]

I like the idea of replacing the old traits document with some sort of core campaign supplement that includes languages, ethnicities, the basic wayfinder, traits and possibly some basic faction prestige awards.

Even if there's no new text, there's the problem of paizo devs having the time to compile and layout such a thing.

[Jack Amy]

Kelly Youngblood wrote:

I like the idea of replacing the old traits document with some sort of core campaign supplement that includes languages, ethnicities, the basic wayfinder, traits and possibly some basic faction prestige awards.

Even if there's no new text, there's the problem of paizo devs having the time to compile and layout such a thing.

A Core Campaign supplement would be awesome. I could see an AP style players guide going down well, covering the background of the Pathfinder Society, factions (plus faction traits, prestige awards and talk about faction cards), languages, ethnicity, the wayfinder and traits (all mentioned above), plus supplementary mundane items in an equipment section.

Maybe throw in a guide on things to look for when building a character for PFS, the importance of various skills in the campaign, how you should make sure that you have both in and out of combat options, and that your character concept should include that your character is and wants to be a Pathfinder plus fits in with the whole 'Explore, Report, Cooperate' spiel etc. etc. There are some great guides out there, but it would be good to have that information all in one place and more easily accessible.

[Zirlock]

Andrew - OK, cool. I too appreciate the addition of items available, particularly as it is controlled at Developer level.

Jack, Kelly, EvilMinion - Yes, I feel using the PFS books avoids cherry-picking options or, more so, enhances Core, without a great deal of Developer/Coordinator work. Which is why I agree that a specific Core document is unlikely to happen in the short term. I'm not sure what the take up of Core is like Campaign-wide (games reported might be a useful metric), but does anyone think it is high enough to justify dedicating a campaign supplement too. If the PFS books were opened up to Core, perhaps that would generate interest in a 4th supplement/Player's Guide, which could be developed with the Core Campaign in mind; perhaps integrating it with Pathfinder Academy and the Library Programme.

I'll cast out a summoning to see if we might get a comment that we are way off base with what the team have in mind, or our musings have any value. It would be really interesting to get some insight into what they might want to do with Core, and where they see it fitting in with the other PFS projects.

Tonya Woldridge, Tonya Woldridge, Tonya Woldridge

John Compton, John Compton, John Compton

Although it might be a while; there is some sort of gaming gathering in Seattle next week ;-)

Z.

[Castilliano]

For the record, I think Core is fine.

While Core appeals to veterans wanting to revisit scenarios and others to challenge themselves with fewer resources, I think the major appeal of Core is that new players won't be intimidated/inundated. (As well as be able to hang with veterans in classic storylines.)
The fewer resources outside the CRB newbies feel obliged to buy or understand, the better.
My two c.p.
Cheers.

[Stormfriend]

Please don't add any books to Core. A revised (and simplified) guide with a few extra player options would work fine though.

In terms of name how about PFS Lite? That's what it is.

I drifted away from PFS a few years ago for a whole host of reasons but Core has tempted me back again. I don't want the Core campaign to suffer the same old problems:

1. Complexity, bloat and paperwork. One book, a web document and chronicles is perfect. Anything else is superfluous.

2. Rules changes. Every time the campaign rules change the playerbase fractures into those who are using year 1 rules, year 2 rules, year 3 rules etc. Okay, maybe not Year 1 (3.5) rules any more, but you know what I mean. I'd like Core to have one set of campaign rules and then stick to them so there's no confusion.

3. Remembering what I've played. Being able to replay everything is bliss as I don't have to cross-reference lengthy lists of games played - yet. What would really help, in both campaigns, is some sort of colourful quick reference guide to what we've played and what is still available. If that exists already please let me know.

4. Guns, robots and lasers. Whilst those could creep back in with later scenarios I'll just avoid those games where possible. A Core warning sign on scenarios that include technology would be useful so we can easily ignore them. Maybe add it to point 3 as a * against the scenario number. I'd also like all technology to be permanently banned in Core games, just speaking for myself!

One other suggestion is to allow Core characters to play non-Core games without losing their Core status. Even if all chronicle items are banned for the Core character and other restrictions are imposed to protect the Core campaign, it would just make organising games easier. Those of us who prefer the challenge and simplicity will still seek out true Core games where we can but they don't come up as often as I'd like.

That's my take anyway. :-)

[Muser]

I'll help with those darn bots:

#6-01: Trial by Machine
#6-02: Silver Mount Collection
#6-03: The Technic Siege
#6-09: By Way of Bloodcove
#6-17: Fires of Karamoss
#6-20: Returned to the Sky

Skip those and you'll avoid all tech stuff entirely. #6-09 though, it basically has just one robot and no other links to technology, so you might be safe there.

[Jack Amy]

If, after all is said and done only one thing gets added to the core campaign, let it be the temple sword. Wipe that smug look off of Sajan's pregenerated face.

[GreySector]

I'd personally prefer the Core campaign to remain as it is.

[Quadstriker]

Please do not add bloat to core.

[EvilMinion]

What is being proposed, is kind of the opposite of bloat.

Core rule book, the seasonal guide, plus a single online Core supplement of some sort.

[Keirine, Human Rogue]

I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out for Stormfriend yet, but:

Session Tracker

Helps you keep track of everything you've played, both Core and Standard.

Personally, I kind of like Core the way it is. I wish that the Web Traits PDF didn't have as many utterly useless traits in it, but there's enough stuff between that and the Guide to Organized Play that I don't feel stifled. And as much as I miss certain items from other books, I think that lends itself to a lot of the fun of Core. "Drat, Masterwork Backpack isn't in core... Okay, let's reexamine my weight... what can I cut?"

(Though, if someone wanted to reprint Ghost Salt in the Guide to Organized Play, I wouldn't be angry...)

[Jayson MF Kip]

Changing the Traits PDF to a "Core Supplement" would be okay, but any bit of book bloat would defeat the purpose of the Core Campaign.