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First off, I'll admit that it's cool. The whole mystic bolt thing is pretty cool.
But mechanically speaking, that doesn't feel strong enough to pick it over other casters. Maybe if you're in a ton of fights in a day, at least you'll have bolts to still use since there is no limit to them.
But a magus can keep up in damage easily, and can significantly exceed a few times a day.
A bard will out buff a warlock, and an archer bard can out damage him, too.
In fact, pretty much all the archers will do damage better than the warlock, it seems.
Mesmerist would win in debuffs.
Occultist has crazy resonant abilities.
Spiritualist and Summoner have phantoms and eidolons, respectively.
Warpriest has crazy self-buffs.
Hunters have solid buffs, a companion, and good teamwork synergy.
And the alchemist has mutagen, bombs, and self-only buffs.
Certainly there are places the warlock compares favorably. Mostly in the wizard spell-list and good ref and will saves. But cool as it is, I don't feel like mystic bolts can compare to the class features of the other 6th level casters.
I really want to like this archetype more, so I'm asking if the community can convince me. Please?
I think twf full attack with touch attack mystic bolts will compare ok to a lot of other damage dealers.
Vigilante talents are pretty good.
I don't know that the Warlock is better than other options you mention necessarily, but I think they can hold their own well enough, and do indeed have their own flavor.
Probably the big thing though is whether your campaign will have much use for the social identity portion of the vigilante class. If it does, the vigilante can bring in things that no other class can, at least not without quite a bit of resource investment. If on the other hand you are just expecting a series of dungeon crawls, this portion of the class is pretty much useless, and hence less attractive than it might be otherwise.
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Unlike a magus or bard it has access to the full sorc/wizard list. This gives a big edge in utility to the warlock. Resistances and immunities suck, but that's when you just change damage type. You quickly have two damage types, and will eventually have all four common elements. Even then you still have six level wizard casting to fall back on, as well as mundane weapons. Arcane Striker is very good at adding damage, just wish it scaled more quickly. Tattoo Chamber is one of the coolest abilities in the game, if limited use.
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TWF with touch attacks may mean you hit more often than some, but the mystic bolt damage is terrible without an Ability Score bonus applying, and the bonus per 4 levels is less than the +1 per 3 levels you'd be getting if you just took Craft Magic Arms and Armour and kept upgrading your gear...
... which you can, 'cos you're a caster... a caster who can cast in armour and is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. So it really looks like it's best to ignore the mystic bolts aspect of the archetype (well, as much as players tend to ignore those Bloodline ray powers Sorcerers get at level one and the like) and just think of it as a Vigilante with 6th level arcane casting - the mystic bolts are nice back-up (especially the ability to pull any damage type out of your arsenal...) for those few cases when you're up against the wall, out of spells, and have dropped that cool magic sword you use to do real damage with.
If you want a reason to like the Warlock, then I'd second the opinions up-thread about taking a look at the Warlock Talents again - now those you can build a cool and effective character concept around.
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But an elditch scoundrel also gets 6th level wizzard casting 3/4th bab and great out of combat utility. And dex-to-damage and sneak attack are better than mystic bolt.
I'm not sure this is accurate at all.
At 5th, when the Warlock starts to get going, you wind up with, assuming Dex 18, +4/+4/+4 to hit for 1d6+4 damage each. 3d6+12 damage with decent odds to hit (vs. touch AC) is not bad damage for 5th level. At all.
That necessitates Rapid Shot, TWF, and Arcane Striker, but that's all super doable by that point. And it scales quite a lot, actually.
By 17th, we're talking 3d6+10 per attack and an attack routine of something like +20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10. That's over 140 damage a turn average, and if not optimal, sure pretty darn good.
And again, all that's on top of 6-level casting from the Wizard list. Eldritch Scoundrel has some definite advantages, but Warlock is really quite solid and workable. The Eldritch Scoundrel is better at low levels, when Touch Attacks are less of a big deal (and particularly before the Warlock even has them), but the Warlock, I think, pulls ahead at high levels when the fact that their attacks basically auto-hit becomes super relevant.
The Warlock also has large social advantages and a Good Will Save, which are not small advantages.
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The Social Simulacrum Warlock talent looks to have some real possibilities. Sure it only copies you as a base, but you've got Sculpt Simulacrum on your spell list too and, even at half-level power, since you're got the Vigilante skill-set your simulacrum should be pretty darn good at pretending to be other people as well.
Elemental Armour also looks very interesting. I ran a game where a PC Barbarian has the Lesser Spirit Totem rage power once, and the (as we called it) 'slap damage' from the power each round often proved just that extra bit needed to drop a foe who was teetering on their last few hit points (but would otherwise have wasted an attack to drop). Elemental Armour looks even better, as it damages anyone who dares to hit you in melee with a non-ranged attack, and has no time or per-day limits. Plus you can walk around wreathed in flame all day like a boss... Flame On! :)
Familiars are pretty awesome for everyone these days, thanks to the Familiar Folio, and Arcane Striker speaks for itself. Tattoo Chamber lets you carry wands around and use them without even drawing them (so craft yourself a wand of a spell you'll want to spam in combat and spam away as if you had no casting limit) or, if you prefer, lets you whip weapons out of nowhere (so you can reach into your jacket pocket and pull out... a bastard sword!).
Unlike a magus or bard it has access to the full sorc/wizard list. This gives a big edge in utility to the warlock. Resistances and immunities suck, but that's when you just change damage type. You quickly have two damage types, and will eventually have all four common elements. Even then you still have six level wizard casting to fall back on, as well as mundane weapons. Arcane Striker is very good at adding damage, just wish it scaled more quickly. Tattoo Chamber is one of the coolest abilities in the game, if limited use.
Well a magus can add wizard spells to his spell list, and which should be enough to get any of the must haves that are missing, and the list has most of the spells you'd actually cast often, i.e. self buffs and melee touch attacks. Neither class is going to actually replace a wizard, just because of the slower spell progression and limiter of 6th level spells.
As to the original question, you pick a warlock if you need to play a vigilante and want to cast spells, because 6/9 with the wizard list is the best available there.
Warlock with VMC magus is outstanding as a class. Arcane Striker is a must, as is PBS and Precise because duh.
From about 5th level on you are in great shape. At 6th level you get another talent, most likely Tattoo Chamber, which leads into the outstanding abilities of Returning Weapon when used in conjunction with a Conductive throwing weapon. The Magus Arcana that you pick up enable you to buff yourself and your to-hit (Arcane Accuracy means +INT to attack rolls). But that's not the good part, since you can get away with only enchanting one weapon, only enchant one with Conductive, and using them you can deliver your Mystic Bolts with Arcane Strike every single attack during a full round through an actual weapon that you can enhance with Arcane Pool AND Arcane Striker for oodles and oodles of non spell energy damage.
Even without VMC magus, you have the most utility pretty much ever, and consistent energy damage that rarely is going to miss that only scales up later on.
And unlike an Eldritch Scoundrel, you get to keep light armor proficiency and still cast.
It is unclear what weapon group the bolts belong to, but in theory one could also go VMC fighter and boost damage that way, by also taking up Gloves of Dueling.
But yeah, by 5th level you will have three attacks all going against touch for 3(1d6+4) or 3d6+12 (average 19). A standard 18 STR martial with a 2HW does [~2d6]+12 with Power Attack (average 19). That's not against touch.
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The warlock has a power spike at level 5 and at level 15/16. But every other level is pretty bad. Look at the damage output at level 1/3/8/10/12/14 too. You get +1 damage and an additional attack at every other level, but otherwise its pretty bleak.
1 and 3 they are indeed a bit behind.
At 8th, assuming Retraining of a single Feat, they're attacking at +10/+10/+10/+5/+5 vs. touch ac for 1d6+5. That's a total of 5d6+25, and not actually bad at all. It's not super stellar, but not bad either. Toss on Heroism and all those attacks get +2.
At 10th, that's +12/+12/+12/+7/+7 for 1d6+6 and a total of 5d6+30 if all hit. Which, again, isn't bad at all given they're touch attacks and that's without spell buffs of any sort.
At 12th, it becomes +15/+15/+15/+10/+10 for 2d6+7 each, or a total of 10d6+35.
At 14th, it's pretty much the same as 12th, but with +1 more to hit.
I think 8th level looks fine, and 10th is getting a little low for level, but 12th brings it well back into the realm of 'solid damage'.
And, once again, all that is utterly without spells. Which they have plenty of. And I'm probably forgetting a thing or three to add to the to-hit numbers to boot.
And even as-is, all those numbers are Green by this guide which is a good measure of viability.
How are you getting 3 attacks at 5th level?
Rapid shot + Two weapon fighting.
Well, I may not be TC, but I was doubting the archetype too, and I'm pretty sold on the warlock's viability now. Excellent posts, DMW.
It definitely seems to require a specific playstyle that is kind of counterintuitive (I wouldn't have thought of mixing Rapid Shot and TWF) and seems extremely reliant on full round actions (I mean, everyone is after a certain point, but here more-so), but it definitely works.
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If I were playing a magical girl, I think I would make it a warlock, since it has magic and dual identity and is in pretty much in every way better than the magical girl. Honestly, it seems like one of the more (the most?) powerful Vigilante archetypes.
Yes, the split identity things costs you 9th level sorc/wiz spells, but the talents warlocks get don't seem that bad. I think you could very easily get a fun character out of it.
nennafir: Magic girl in an interesting Archetype. It really requires you to carefully pick your familiar options. For instance, a Tidepool Dragon adds a 4th level sorcerer it the mix. A Sin Seeker has at will—comprehend languages and Detect Alignment, a battery of truth finding SLA and telepathy. A Cassisian has Constant—detect evil and know direction, truespeech, and a Lesser Protective Aura.
By making wise choices, the swappable familiar can be pretty useful. The main downfall of it IMO is it doesn't really get up to speed until 9th.
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*some numbers about looking ok at lvl 8/10/12/14 etc*
DMW and then you meet the 90% of the bestiary at those levels have more and more resists, 1d6+6 suddenly turns into 0-2
Yes, but at those levels you have multiple damage types to play with, so you just change types and hope you're not fighting demons. Even against demons, the 2d6 from holy arcane striker can allow you to contribute, but you can fall back on spells to contribute in other ways instead as well.
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Well, I may not be TC, but I was doubting the archetype too, and I'm pretty sold on the warlock's viability now. Excellent posts, DMW.
Thanks. :)
It definitely seems to require a specific playstyle that is kind of counterintuitive (I wouldn't have thought of mixing Rapid Shot and TWF) and seems extremely reliant on full round actions (I mean, everyone is after a certain point, but here more-so), but it definitely works.
If you're trapped without a full round action available, you can always cast a spell. You are a 6 level caster from the Wizard list, after all.
*some numbers about looking ok at lvl 8/10/12/14 etc*
DMW and then you meet the 90% of the bestiary at those levels have more and more resists, 1d6+6 suddenly turns into 0-2
90% of the Bestiary is resistant to acid, electricity, and (at 13th+) cold? Because I'm pretty sure a very small number of creatures are actually resistant to both acid and electricity. I mean, aside from demons, what is there?
And if you do run up against such foes, well, that's another situation in which spells can be used.
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dual resists are not uncommon, and ya before 13th you only have two
Really? Name some for Acid/Electricity. Other than Demons.
plus with that nice short range, you're always in crunchy range
Grab Weapon Finesse and suddenly all that not doing ranged costs you is one attack. You still want to do ranged if possible, but not doing so isn't the end of the world. And you get great defensive spells available. Mirror Image + Shield on top of standard Dex-based lightly armored AC is nothing to sneeze at.
it was the combo of the two limitations that bummed me out on warlock
I think you're really overstating how much of an issue they are.
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OP here, chiming in.
First off, wow! You guys have a way more awesome discussion going on than I had expected. Thank you.
Secondly, I had forgotten to mention initially that this is for a PFS character. He will be starting at 1xp shy of 3rd level.
The present build in mind is as follows:
H-Point blank shot
1-Precise shot
3-Rapid Shot
5-TWF
7-Weapon Finesse (maybe quickdraw)
9-ITWF
11-???
Talents:
2-Arcane Striker
6-Tattoo Chamber
12-????
With all the feats necessary to make ranged combat feasible on a warlock, I feel I can't actually get weapon finesse any earlier.
Several posters make mention of how awesome the vigilante talents are, and I certainly agree. However, arcane striker is so important as to be assumed in all of the number crunching, which really only leaves 1 reasonably leveled talent to acquire. That doesn't give a whole lot of room for work. Tattoo chamber just seems really nice for the wand action economy. Plus, there are some cool tricks you could maybe do with it, since it can be ANY item that can be held in the hand.
At least if the warlock in question is beset by demons, he could use some cold iron daggers. Either dual wielding in melee or quick drawing a bunch to throw. There are still some demons that have DR/ Good we couldn't overcome, but you can't win them all.
How in the world can you do two-weapon fighting and rapid shot in the same round?
Neither two-weapon fighting or Rapid shot are independent action, they are just things you can do if you make a full attack action.
Rapid Shot "Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round at your highest bonus."
Full Attack: "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks."
How in the world can you do two-weapon fighting and rapid shot in the same round?
Two-Weapon Fighting works with ranged (thrown, crossbows fired with one hand, one-handed firearms) weapons as well as melee weapons.
Rapid Shot works with any ranged weapon.
For physical weapons, Quick Draw allows you to ready weapons as a free action. Or you could use shuriken, which are treated as ammunition (free action to draw).
Some of the more... "OMG, that's OP" gunslingers (which actually aren't) will use two double-barreled pistols to Rapid Shot with one pistol, fire both barrels at once from the other pistol for their first "off-hand" iterative, and use various options to allow them to reload both pistols with Rapid Reload and alchemical cartridges as free actions to use all of their additional attacks in the round firing double shots. The penalties are pretty bad (-4 for TWF with one-handed weapons, -2 for Rapid Shot, and -4 when firing both barrels simultaneously), but the character is probably targeting touch AC which usually (more than) compensates.
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OP here, chiming in.
First off, wow! You guys have a way more awesome discussion going on than I had expected. Thank you.Secondly, I had forgotten to mention initially that this is for a PFS character. He will be starting at 1xp shy of 3rd level.
The present build in mind is as follows:
H-Point blank shot
1-Precise shot
3-Rapid Shot
5-TWF
7-Weapon Finesse (maybe quickdraw)
9-ITWF
11-???Talents:
2-Arcane Striker
6-Tattoo Chamber
12-????With all the feats necessary to make ranged combat feasible on a warlock, I feel I can't actually get weapon finesse any earlier.
Several posters make mention of how awesome the vigilante talents are, and I certainly agree. However, arcane striker is so important as to be assumed in all of the number crunching, which really only leaves 1 reasonably leveled talent to acquire. That doesn't give a whole lot of room for work. Tattoo chamber just seems really nice for the wand action economy. Plus, there are some cool tricks you could maybe do with it, since it can be ANY item that can be held in the hand.
At least if the warlock in question is beset by demons, he could use some cold iron daggers. Either dual wielding in melee or quick drawing a bunch to throw. There are still some demons that have DR/ Good we couldn't overcome, but you can't win them all.
For a PFS build where you won't be accessing the mega upgrades to arcane striker beyond the normal feat (they start at 12th), you might consider the minor swap of taking Arcane Strike as a feat and taking Weapon Finesse as part of Deadly Grace. This won't change anything for your bolts one way or the other, but it makes those backup daggers stronger when they're necessary at no real cost that you feel in levels 1-11. If you don't mind losing the switch-hitting accuracy increases (and honestly, even using Strength to hit you might well hit with touch attacks) you could also take a different talent entirely (inspired vigilante, familiar, and elemental armor are all fun choices, and with so many low damage attacks, cunning feint is an amazing and low-cost to you debuff that also happens to take away the main defense against your touch attacks) and just not take Weapon Finesse.
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How in the world can you do two-weapon fighting and rapid shot in the same round?Two-Weapon Fighting works with ranged (thrown, crossbows fired with one hand, one-handed firearms) weapons as well as melee weapons.
Rapid Shot works with any ranged weapon.
For physical weapons, Quick Draw allows you to ready weapons as a free action. Or you could use shuriken, which are treated as ammunition (free action to draw).
Some of the more... "OMG, that's OP" gunslingers (which actually aren't) will use two double-barreled pistols to Rapid Shot with one pistol, fire both barrels at once from the other pistol for their first "off-hand" iterative, and use various options to allow them to reload both pistols with Rapid Reload and alchemical cartridges as free actions to use all of their additional attacks in the round firing double shots. The penalties are pretty bad (-4 for TWF with one-handed weapons, -2 for Rapid Shot, and -4 when firing both barrels simultaneously), but the character is probably targeting touch AC which usually (more than) compensates.
Wow.l Sounds pretty cheesy. You sure that is RAW?
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I might be crazy, but surely the fact that you can combine Rapid Shot with TWF has never in any way, shape or form been in question, right?
I mean, that whole gunslinger mess was about the ridiculous reloading shenanigans, no? Or am I missing something here?
Wow.l Sounds pretty cheesy. You sure that is RAW?How in the world can you do two-weapon fighting and rapid shot in the same round?Two-Weapon Fighting works with ranged (thrown, crossbows fired with one hand, one-handed firearms) weapons as well as melee weapons.
Rapid Shot works with any ranged weapon.
For physical weapons, Quick Draw allows you to ready weapons as a free action. Or you could use shuriken, which are treated as ammunition (free action to draw).
Some of the more... "OMG, that's OP" gunslingers (which actually aren't) will use two double-barreled pistols to Rapid Shot with one pistol, fire both barrels at once from the other pistol for their first "off-hand" iterative, and use various options to allow them to reload both pistols with Rapid Reload and alchemical cartridges as free actions to use all of their additional attacks in the round firing double shots. The penalties are pretty bad (-4 for TWF with one-handed weapons, -2 for Rapid Shot, and -4 when firing both barrels simultaneously), but the character is probably targeting touch AC which usually (more than) compensates.
Yes.
However, the restrictions on (early) firearms targeting touch AC (first range increment only, unless using 1 grit per additional range increment for each attack it's used with to extend it with the Deadeye deed) mean that it's pretty much restricted to within 20 ft (40 ft with +1 distance double-barreled pistols). Which allows creatures to easily move adjacent/within reach to the gunslinger (or charge/pounce, if there's an unobstructed path); at that point, the gunslinger draws AoOs for firing and/or reloading their guns.
Which is why I said it wasn't really OP. It's just a niche corner case (like the charge/pounce barbarian or the "machine-gun" archer); a bit better against some foes, but harder to set up.
The best way to sell yourself on the warlock is to stop treating Mystic Bolt like your main class feature. You're a 6th level caster off the sorc/wiz list with access to lots of vigilante goodies. You just also happen to have a super-cantrip you can full attack and make AoOs with.
But between not getting an ability score modifier to damage and not being eligible for a bunch of weapon buffs (like sense vitals and haste) means that it's never going to be the reason you play the class.
Holy s&+$, Haste doesnt work either RAW...
Um, what?
Haste gives you an extra attack when making a full attack with a manufactured or natural weapon. Per the FAQ Mystic Bolt is explicitly neither.
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Oh man, I had just assumed that haste would work. It's just one of those pretty universally useful buffs for characters that use the full-attack action. That makes me real sad.
@Cory Stafford 29- I've known alchemists to combine rapid shot and TWF after level 6 when they can grab fast bombs. The balancing factor there is the limit on bombs. They can really only full attack like that about two or three times in a day. For massive damage, admittedly, but it's very limited use.
@Squiggit- In a world with 12 6th level casters, it's the other class features that set them apart.
Inquisitors get Judgements, Bane, and a bevy of skill bonuses.
Bards get performances, versatile performance, and lore master
Hunters get a full-druid level animal companion, shared teamwork feats, and animal focus.
et cetera
Warlocks get 2 vigilante talents, mystic bolts, the appearances, and the most flexible spell list.
With a d8 HD and almost no other incentive to stack con, the warlock will typically have low health. The warlock only has light armor or mage armor. This highly incentivises a dex build, especially since Str doesn't add damage to their main attack option's damage.
Most of the vigilante talents don't do a ton to help your combat viability, either, which is unfortunate. If you opt to grab arcane strike with a feat, you have to either make a compromise and grab rapid shot or TWF later (which are two of your main damage sources) or don't take arcane strike until level 7, which means for your career that that point you'll be losing 1-2 damage per hit.
I suppose retraining is a thing you could do in this case?
Grab arcane striker at 2 then retrain it at 7 when you can get it as a feat and grab one of the other talents.
At least the warlock can easily activate Startling Appearance.
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Haste gives you an extra attack when making a full attack with a manufactured or natural weapon. Per the FAQ Mystic Bolt is explicitly neither.
Haste gives you an extra attack with a natural or manufactured weapon, which you may immediately replace with a mystic bolt. Mystic bolts provides its own exception.
Mystic bolt doesn't say that though. And the FAQ explicitly calls it out as not manufactured. So no haste. The 'takes the place of' line doesn't mention manufactured or natural. If it did that part of the FAQ wouldn't have had to be asked in the first place.
Using Mystic Bolt with Haste would be equivalent to using Spell Combat with Haste, I imagine. Your hands might be moving faster, but the speed of the magic spells has not gotten any better.
At least, I assume that's the proper reasoning. Does seem kind of odd, however.
==Aelryinth
I think it's possibly unintended because there are lots of odd ramifications of the mystic bolts not counting as manufactured beyond the obvious and mystic bolts are already pretty bad. But who can tell.