Hello all,
So, allow me to explain the setting before I get into the title problem. I've mentioned this a few times I'm sure in other threads, but I think it matters for the question at hand.
Essentially the campaign takes place in our current world, in California 2016. My pc owns a magic components and magic items shop (one of the few in the area that sells legit stuff), another player owns a fairly popular nightclub and possibly other companies / properties.
Now, with that said, I have a distinct feeling that the pc who owns the nightclubs is eventually going to turn on the rest of the party after the primary arc is finished, and we'll be forced into pvp that I don't really want to do. He says his character is LN, however from the way he's played (leaving the group in the middle of a big fight to go back and snatch up a magic item, quickly taking a magical dagger meant to sacrifice the helpless to gain power, and killing any and all enemies despite them using non-lethal means and trying to retreat, willing to do shady stuff like send out someone to negotiate then kill them after they finish because they're a "loose end") seems awfully evil to me.
Add to that, that he's been out of game saying he's been building his empire (mostly underground / gang stuff as I've heard), and intends to try to "persuade" my character to give him ownership of my characters shop (something he won't do).
Having played with this person in other games, he's a friend, and knowing that he's a very stubborn and opinionated, worry about myself, kind of person; I know he won't stop if asked to let up on it. The GM doesn't seem to mind his actions, despite knowledge of the possibility that this might turn into a PvP situation later down the line. Heck, I think he might be hoping for it, if just for entertainment.
This player's got a fair amount of in character wealth, influence and people to call on. 40+ employees that are very loyal to him and will fight for him. He's a full caster. He also seems to be able to talk his way into getting what he wants in character.
Any ways anyone can see to help me prepare for the eventuality of PvP and the players treachery? A way to even the odds?
I really, really enjoy the game otherwise. Probably the most fun I had in a tabletop game to date. I'm just not looking forward to the player vs player confrontation that I'm fairly certain will happen.
Also, if there are any questions on the situation, I'll try to answer them the best I can. I do intend to talk to the DM about my concerns, but as I said, I feel it unlikely he'll do anything about it.
He is very obviously Lawful Evil. That may or may not actually change anything, depending on how much power Good religions/organizations hold in your game world.
That being said, A Good character can be more disruptive and bloodthirsty than a demon worshiper if that's what the player is after. Tell the DM what you've told us, bring up your concerns and be adamant. If he tries to brush you off repeat yourself and make him take you seriously.
Are you looking for advice to build your character in preparation for the inevitable PvP scene? Because this is 100% a player issue.
In my ears, this situation sounds too me as something affecting the whole gaming group. You, the player whose character owns a nigthclub, the GM and also the other players (which there are, presumably, at least one?).
If the issue of PC vs. PC combat, backstabbing and hidden agendas wasn't handled at a session 0 or other early discussion stage of the campaign it needs to be handled now.
You need to raise your concerns. You're not interested backstabbing. You need to tell that to the other members of the group. Obviously this is not easy, feelings might get hurt no matter how delicately you put it (and the others respond). And it might show insurmountable differences in the desired style of play.
Maybe you're outnumbered, maybe several members consider backstabbing and PC vs. PC as something desirable. Maybe, in the end, this isn't the campaign for you.
Hopefully, though, it won't come to that. And it's probably better find out now than in the campaign finale. Maybe you can get an assurance from the player in question that this isn't leading to what you're fearing, reliving your stress and allowing you to enjoy the hobby to the fullest. Maybe you and the GM and other players can persuade the 'backstabbing' player that he risks intruding on other people's fun. Or maybe you'll find a middle ground or a way for you to enjoy and embrace the backstabbing part.
Personally, I don't consider backstabbing to have a place in games like Pathfinder. Sure, you can take the game and do whatever you want with it. But Pathfinder is written to be played cooperatively and it offers absolutely no advice and support for backstabbing or ensemble play.
If anyone feels the need to include backstabbing in their Pathfinder campaign, I strongly recommend they do it the way backstabbing is done best: out in the open. This is something I was taught playing Apocalypse World. State, within the very first minutes of play, »my character is probably eventually going to want to murder your player«. Do it in front of the entire gaming table. That way, everyone can work towards that cool, fulfilling scene when the murder attempt is played out. The journey is half the fun, but if you play the backstabbing without the other players knowing it then they don't get to enjoy it.
So, a last stab in the dark piece of advice: suggest playing Apocalypse World after/in between sessions of the current campaign to get this nightclub-player to live out his backstabbing needs.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Definitely talk to the GM and explain how PvP is not what you signed up for and will result in ruining the game for you, if he still insists it's allowed and despite that you want to keep playing as the game is fun at the moment then we need more information. What class is your character? Level? Any resources other than your shop? I mean if we even had a wheelbarrow, that would be something! ;)
I will definitely talk to my GM. If we started the game with the idea of PvP in mind, I wouldn't care as much. I guess I was just hoping for a game where we all work together, as good guys / a team. I'll repeat what I wrote here, and see what he says though.
Definitely talk to the GM and explain how PvP is not what you signed up for and will result in ruining the game for you, if he still insists it's allowed and despite that you want to keep playing as the game is fun at the moment then we need more information. What class is your character? Level? Any resources other than your shop? I mean if we even had a wheelbarrow, that would be something! ;)
Currently lv. 8 running a 3pp radiance house occultist (i.e. binder) and have a fair amount of spirits to choose from. He's built a bit towards front lining, but has a decent amount of skills, including social and knowledge skills. The DM is also into homebrewing, so I occasionally get custom made spirits. I have the leadership feat and a very solid CHA score, so plenty of followers that he's allowed me to customize. Including 2 lawyers with very strong bluff and diplomacy scores, a wizard crafter who's an employee, a binder cohort / apprentice, some police, tiny fey (pixies), a hacker (he's made hacking it's own skill I guess), a leprechaun bodyguard (who's yet to show up), a shinigami and fukujin guard his shop.
Aside from that, he's got different contacts, most of which are either very good friends of my PC (witch, alchemist and fighter) or are suppliers to his shop (2 are from another plane, 2 are on earth and are on good business terms with him). He has potential connections to some other supernatural groups, including a japanese ran vetala group, a native american shapeshifter group and a coven of witches, assuming I can do the diplomacy and presumably side missions well enough for them.
Thanks everyone for the advice. Again, I will definitely talk to my DM about it and see what he has to say. Maybe he'll surprise me though, or maybe he sees what I see and doesn't plan to let it go through to fruition. I guess I'll see.
If one or more people don't want PVP, and others do, there's a very limited number of outcomes, and they almost guaranteed include people quitting from the group if the PVP situation isn't staved off before people pull the trigger.
Your primary course of action is talking with the GM.
* If the GM knows about the plans and does not object to them, emphasize that you will not participate in such things. be prepared to back up your words - face gaming is awesome, but being limited to online gaming is better than inter-personal abuse of trust.
* If the Gm does not know of the plans, worry slightly that he or she is obviously not very perceptive, but work with him/her to steer the group away from the current course. The PVP fans may quit, but see above - and you may be able to replace them with players more amenable to your playstyle.
Out of curiosity: the game sounds like it's much closer to Shadowrun, or even Dresden Files a pinch. How did you end up playing Pathfinder with this somewhat odd setting?
Out of curiosity: the game sounds like it's much closer to Shadowrun, or even Dresden Files a pinch. How did you end up playing Pathfinder with this somewhat odd setting?
It is actually inspired by the Dresden Files book, just not the actual tabletop rpg. None of the characters from the book of course, but a definite inspiration. We went with Pathfinder more because it was something all of us were thoroughly familiar, and comfortable with, and because for the most part, outside of money and firearms, it didn't really require many mechanical changes. It's actually been a ton of fun, since there are so many more jokes and references one can make with a world they've lived in for 20+ years.
Hm. If it's off the table advice you're looking for, that fronts been more then dealt with by the above post. So I guess I'll give some in-game advice. As far as actual firepower goes, you don't sound like your in very bad shape, if you can martial what you've stated above. Whether you want to avoid a fight or not, the most obvious advice is to martial your forces. Talk with those non employee groups, try and guarantee that they'll come to your aid if a fight breaks out. This will not only strengthen your defenses in the event that he tries to strong arm you, but more importantly it will make you look like an unappealing target. He may consider you a takeover option because you've been fairly subtle about all your potential firepower if it comes down to it. If you are being subtle, stop doing that. Make it obvious that you can be a force to be reckoned with if a fight does happen. He may decide not to bother the rest of you, or, and not to throw anyone under the bus here, he may decide another pc makes a juicier target. This may sound cruel, but if he shows his true colours and attacks someone else, then you can probably convince others to unite with you against him. Even if the other player are A-ok with some pc vs pc fighting, I doubt that they'd just roll over and do nothing if he completely wipes out another pc. If this happens, you may be able to unite with the others PCs against him, which will force him to either suicide against the entirety of the party, or back down and start playing nice. This won't solve the obvious behavioural issues, but it will give you time to deal with it off-table.
The Skeptical Gnome has some salient points. The course he predicts is possible, even likely, and will almost guarantee a permanent break-up of the gaming group. It is *very* rare to find pvp gamers who can take it on nose in good grace if the tables are turned on them.
|
|
Make alliances, non-aggression and mutual defence pacts with the groups you're on good terms with for long duration's, years at least, if someone messes with any one of you, they mess with everyone. Then mention it in conversation some time when the other PC is there in an off handed fashion as if it's been a thing forever and no-one who's ever caused your groups trouble has survived.
Sure your GM may use this plot hook to get you to go help them sometimes... great! You have a stronger bond and are probably better off after having done so, plus cool story!
Have your laywers and hacker (especially him!) start quietly looking into the ownership, debt, etc of your potential enemies legitimate businesses. If you can obtain his tax records, go for it, clubs are notorious for under reporting their revenue and if you think that's the case, hell even if it's not, sick the IRS on him with an "anonymous" tip if he starts making moves, that should distract him. If your material resources are up to it start buying out his suppliers or gain a controlling interest in groups important to his business, basically become so vital and intertwined to him and with enough backing that if he tries to take you on it will destroy his own empire as well.
From a personal PvP point of view, learn his weaknesses, what his weak saves are, where he sleeps, etc. Then create, learn or buy spells and items that target those weaknesses, have a plan ready to go to destroy him if anything goes down and make sure to keep these items on you ready to go. You could also have a "scorched earth" plan in place, a pre-written arrangement with all your followers and allies that if you die they out and out attack everything he has and burn his empire to the ground.
Hm. If it's off the table advice you're looking for, that fronts been more then dealt with by the above post. So I guess I'll give some in-game advice. As far as actual firepower goes, you don't sound like your in very bad shape, if you can martial what you've stated above. Whether you want to avoid a fight or not, the most obvious advice is to martial your forces. Talk with those non employee groups, try and guarantee that they'll come to your aid if a fight breaks out. This will not only strengthen your defenses in the event that he tries to strong arm you, but more importantly it will make you look like an unappealing target. He may consider you a takeover option because you've been fairly subtle about all your potential firepower if it comes down to it. If you are being subtle, stop doing that. Make it obvious that you can be a force to be reckoned with if a fight does happen. He may decide not to bother the rest of you, or, and not to throw anyone under the bus here, he may decide another pc makes a juicier target. This may sound cruel, but if he shows his true colours and attacks someone else, then you can probably convince others to unite with you against him. Even if the other player are A-ok with some pc vs pc fighting, I doubt that they'd just roll over and do nothing if he completely wipes out another pc. If this happens, you may be able to unite with the others PCs against him, which will force him to either suicide against the entirety of the party, or back down and start playing nice. This won't solve the obvious behavioural issues, but it will give you time to deal with it off-table.
I would agree with most of this.. but.. I would suggest in addition, once you come up with a plan, STRIKE FIRST!!!!
Telling him you are getting ready, then waiting for his move, is suicide in my opinion.
Figure out your plan, and strike at him. Killing him if you feel you have no choice, or just cripple him, if you feel after that he will leave you alone.
I've been on the receiving end of PVP, had a guy settin up plans to attack other players, totally saw it coming, and told him so, it only altered his plans/ beefed them up. DO NOT WAIT, STRIKE FIRST!!
A lot of great advice for dealing with it in game, if it comes to that. Still, I'm going to try to talk to my DM and see if we can avoid this if at all possible.
I especially like the idea of gathering the groups together into one bigger group that takes care of each other. It's not going to be easy, and they may resist, but if I can manage it, even if not used for the PVP, it'll be awesome fun anyways, and could help in saving the city from time to time.
Good stuff. Thanks everyone.
You stated this game is based off the Dresden Files. If there are Wardens in the game, became friendly with them.
I would agree with most of this.. but.. I would suggest in addition, once you come up with a plan, STRIKE FIRST!!!!
Telling him you are getting ready, then waiting for his move, is suicide in my opinion.
Figure out your plan, and strike at him. Killing him if you feel you have no choice, or just cripple him, if you feel after that he will leave you alone.
I've been on the receiving end of PVP, had a guy settin up plans to attack other players, totally saw it coming, and told him so, it only altered his plans/ beefed them up. DO NOT WAIT, STRIKE FIRST!!
Remember the Golden Rule: "Do unto others as they would do unto you, only do it first."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alternatively, sell him the shop.
Pack up everything, even the "Hang in there kitty!" poster and move it to a new shop in a new city. Take down all the signage and give everything a fresh coast of magical cleansing and paint so that not even a spec of magical or psychic energy is left on the building. Then, sell him the building, while you move all your goods, products, and expertise to a new city where you open a new shop.
In the new city, with the new shop, befriend all the local fey, demi-fey, undead, devils, demons, witches, warlocks, wizards, elementals, and vampires. So then if the other player tries to move in and extort you there will be plenty of powerful things that will eat him for you as a favor.