
DrNegative |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |

Yep, you read right. Another attempt to improve the Fighter.
This is my first build for this alternate fighter, so just remember the following:
1. This is Homebrew. Use it if you want; no one's twisting your arm to play it.
2. I make no claims for this class to perfectly balanced. This aspect will take time and playtesting. I hope you all will assist with that.
3. This is my take on the challenge. Ideas and suggestions are welcome, but I am not building "your" version of the fighter. If you want "your" version of the fighter, get started on working on it yourself.
Now, with that out of the way, Here it is.
Questions, comments, and constructive criticism are appreciated.
-Thank You

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Very Interesting, I do like all the cool abilities that the fighter gets.
I was thinking last night about allowing the fighter to self buff or be able to get even more out of their equipment because they rely so heavily on Arm and weapons.
Why not bump the fighters HP to a d12? seems like they should have it.

Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

I don't mind the fighter being at a d10. However, making it easy for them to get bonus hp or train their hp/hd up faster then other classes is a great thing for emphasis on 'training' for them. So the barbarian is Naturally Tougher then the fighter, but the fighter can easily train to equal or surpass him.
The toughness feat is a good mechanic to have this happen automatically. Otherwise, use the Ultimate Campaign rules and just have it cost the fighter half price...you know, like casters can make magic items for half price.
Note that Toughness is a general feat, however.
The new armor handbook and the weapons handbook had two very interesting sets of feats. For armor, extra abilities bringing out the 'innate magic' of what your armor is made of, the Armor Materials feat.
The other is the feat that lets you bring out extra magic based on what type of magic the stuff you wear uses. Transmutative magic = gain use of Flight, etc.
Having them just outright given to the fighter would definitely be the flavor Raltus is looking for.
=+Aelryinth

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I guess I was thinking of it more like the skill unlocks. How at certain points they just get better at using their armor/weapons for other cool things.
Could even be based on BAB, like at BAB 5 you can turn half your dmg in to bleed. So once you get 6/1 you could do bleed with the first hit then just attack with the second.
Armor could further lessen the ACP, and they could instead use their Str in place of Dex for increasing AC. Or could Make their Str score added to their touch AC.

My Self |
Perhaps for the Brains with Brawn thing, you have it so that "this only functions when the character's Fighter level is equal to their character level"? The current wording is somewhat strange.
Challenge seems somewhat odd. Unlike all the other sort of focused enemy things, Challenge disappears at a certain range, but it lasts for an hour. If a challenged enemy manages to stay within 60 feet of you for an hour without you killing them, you've done something horribly wrong. Perhaps you take off lost challenge range restriction, and just say that it only functions against opponents within 60 feet? Also, the numbers are somewhat strange and arcane. +1/2 level to hit and damage I get, although it could be phrased better. +STR or DEX to hit... wait, isn't that something you already get? So you'd basically be doubling down on your to-hit stat, but not really, since STR and DEX don't stack with themselves. There's also no daily limit, which the Investigator, Cavalier, Paladin, Antipaladin, and all the other archetyped pseudo-smiters have. Combined with your weapon training, you'll have truly monstrous bonuses to hit and damage and completely overshadow any other combatant (Smiting Paladin and raging Barbarian included). Perhaps this could use some revision?
I totally get what Mobile Warrior is going for, but the numbers are pretty strange. Perhaps you could simplify it and either get rid of the scaling AC boosts, or grant Mobility as a bonus feat?
Armor Mastery can (and will) get up to ridiculous numbers for any semi-competent Fighter. Just putting that out there. It probably shouldn't matter that much, since it's a semi-capstone, but yeah.
Overall, you get a ton of bonuses to hit and damage, but I'm not seeing too much in the way of anti-Fighter tactic prevention. It's nice that there's a tactic that grants an auto-success on a save, but what would also be great is something like Evasion or Stalwart, where successes on saves mean no penalties at all. Also, the ability to break force barriers, take down flying enemies, shoot through wind walls, deflect or avoid AOE spells, dispel enchantments, and otherwise beat up mages would be great.

Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

anti-magic stuff would have to be based on new feats, and be elective. I like the 3e condition for Pierce Magical Concealment and Pierce Magical Protection...-4 to caster level. No caster will EVER take those feats.
The Using Magic Items and Using Armor Better could just be a class ability given at fighter level x as outgrowths of weapon and armor training.
As for skill unlocks...skills are the focus for the Rogue. Fighters should focus on feats, IMO. Tons and tons of feats.
One of the things about the fighter is how overvalued combat feats are. Seriously, look at the human FC bonus for spon casters.
+1 Spell Known, of a level one lower then your highest level.
You know that's a Feat, right, Extra Spell Known?
So, sorcs and oracles get a free feat every level. And is there anybody who thinks an extra level 8 Spell Known is more valuable then ANY combat feat?
The wizard can instead choose to pick a free spell he doesn't have to pay for. Free gold for buying spells.
And the fighter? The fighter can't even pick extra combat feats, because that would be unbalanced, or something. Let alone general feats.
==Aelryinth

DrNegative |

Perhaps for the Brains with Brawn thing, you have it so that "this only functions when the character's Fighter level is equal to their character level"? The current wording is somewhat strange.
Challenge seems somewhat odd. Unlike all the other sort of focused enemy things, Challenge disappears at a certain range, but it lasts for an hour. If a challenged enemy manages to stay within 60 feet of you for an hour without you killing them, you've done something horribly wrong. Perhaps you take off lost challenge range restriction, and just say that it only functions against opponents within 60 feet? Also, the numbers are somewhat strange and arcane. +1/2 level to hit and damage I get, although it could be phrased better. +STR or DEX to hit... wait, isn't that something you already get? So you'd basically be doubling down on your to-hit stat, but not really, since STR and DEX don't stack with themselves. There's also no daily limit, which the Investigator, Cavalier, Paladin, Antipaladin, and all the other archetyped pseudo-smiters have. Combined with your weapon training, you'll have truly monstrous bonuses to hit and damage and completely overshadow any other combatant (Smiting Paladin and raging Barbarian included). Perhaps this could use some revision?
I totally get what Mobile Warrior is going for, but the numbers are pretty strange. Perhaps you could simplify it and either get rid of the scaling AC boosts, or grant Mobility as a bonus feat?
Armor Mastery can (and will) get up to ridiculous numbers for any semi-competent Fighter. Just putting that out there. It probably shouldn't matter that much, since it's a semi-capstone, but yeah.
Overall, you get a ton of bonuses to hit and damage, but I'm not seeing too much in the way of anti-Fighter tactic prevention. It's nice that there's a tactic that grants an auto-success on a save, but what would also be great is something like Evasion or Stalwart, where successes on saves mean no penalties at all. Also, the ability to break force barriers, take down...
Noted.

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I wasn't saying the fighter should go for skill unlocks I am saying that there should be something the fighter gets similar to that when they reach x level.
I agree that combat feats are trash, who knows maybe the fighter could be the class that combines combat feats into new and interesting ways.
what about combining Power Attack and cleave?
Power Cleave
Benefits: You can cleave up to 3 enemies in front of you, you gain the benefits of Power Attack on this hit. You gain all the negative effects of both cleave and power attack until the end of your turn. This is a standard action.
So a first level fighter could hit 3 goblins gaining an extra +2 dmg, but taking -2 to AC/TH
Seems odd but it would be a cool function of the fighter.

Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

Power Attack scales pretty nicely on its own, and is good at every level.
The only way you need to scale it is to give it Furious Finish, and Improved Power Attack or +.5 Str on swings as you level up.
Cleave, Greater Cleave, Whirlwind and Supreme Cleave should all be the same feat/technique, graded by level or by feat synergy.
I.e. Cleave, hit 2 adjacent foes.
If you have Power Attack, you can strike a second foe within reach if you drop one in an attack. This takes an AoO.
If you have Spring Attack, you can instead attack everyone in a 5' radius from you as a standard action.
If you have Mobility, you may take a 5' step between cleave strikes, up to your normal permitted movement per round if you get multiple cleaves.
i.e. pick synergy with feats or improving with BAB/Fighter level.
==Aelryinth

johnnythexxxiv |

So unless I'm reading this wrong, it looks like you can get a +27 bonus (+29 or +31 with gloves of dueling, hard to tell which order to stack that in) to hit and +17 damage (+19 or +21 with gloves) at 20th level. That's a lot higher than other martials are getting. Hitting ACs and doing damage when you can target your foe has never been a problem for the fighter, it's the spec'ed for melee but need a bow or enemy has non AC defenses up so to hit bonus is useless that's always been the issue and is still the issue with your current fighter. In comparison, barbarians get short duration flight and antimagic rage powers to deal with pesky casters.

Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

YOu're going to have to break down that Math, Johnny.
Let's see, Barbarian>
+20 BAB, +4/+4 Str, +/+6 Witch Hunter, +6/+0 Reckless Abandon.
And Come and Get me. +30/+10 with any weapon, and if you're going to bring in Gloves of Dueling, the Furious Enhancement for +32/+12. +32/+14 2hw, of course. I assume you aren't adding in Power Attack, of course...
And Come and Get me. Did I mention Come and Get Me?
Ranger: +20 BAB, +10/+10 FE, Instant Enemy. Leaden Weapon/Gravity bow for +3, so +30/+13. with any weapon.
Paladin: Let's say a 26 Cha at 20 for +8. So, +28/+20, auto confirm crits. Plus whatever your Sword bond gives you. With any weapon.
Fighter: I didn't see a weapon Spec rewrite, so WT+GWS+Gloves is +8/+10, for +28/+10 dmg, auto confirm crits at 20. Don't see a +30 dmg without using 2h power attack...and then only with a handful of weapons, as opposed to, say, IUS, Greatsword, and Longbow. Which every other class can do.
Yeah, fighter is definitely the WORST of these 4.
==================================
Negative: Reword bravery: The Fighter also gains his Bravery bonus or his Intimidate Ranks, whichever is higher, as a bonus on all Fear saves.
At level 20, I would just make the crit ranges of your chosen 3 weapons all 19-20/x4...which is the BEST possible combination they can get. Everything becomes a falcata. That way, there's no irritating variance between weapons at the ultimate level, and you don't punish someone for NOT having a falcata or naginata or falchion.
==Aelryinth

DrNegative |

...it's the spec'ed for melee but need a bow or enemy has non AC defenses up...
I'm sorry. I literally can't understand this bit. Grammar please.
At level 20, I would just make the crit ranges of your chosen 3 weapons all 19-20/x4...which is the BEST possible combination they can get. Everything becomes a falcata. That way, there's no irritating variance between weapons at the ultimate level, and you don't punish someone for NOT having a falcata or naginata or falchion.
Noted.

My Self |
The language for the Fighting Man level dependent stuff could be altered like Brains and Brawn.
The range on Challenge is still somewhat strange. I could end a Challenge by backing off 30 feet, and force the Fighter to expend another one if he wants to keep challenging. Perhaps you could make it function a bit more like the Paladin's? So it would function all day, until you either kill the target, knock them out, die, or recharge your Challenges? But it only gives you a boost to hit or damage within 60 feet (doubled at 11th level). The wording on your version seems unnecessarily complex compared to the Cavalier and Paladin smitey-abilities. Perhaps you could take some text from those?
Also, are you going to keep it named "Challenge"? If you keep it this way, it would function with the Chain Challenge feat.
The elemental resistances seem a bit tame. Consider the Flame Oracle revelation:
Molten Skin (Ex): You gain resist fire 5. This resistance increases to 10 at 5th level and 20 at 11th level. At 17th level, you gain immunity to fire.
Perhaps something like this, or instead of immunity, some sort of scaling +X to the save or something? Or doubling your Bravery bonus to saves against that element?
It would be cool to see some sort of Tower Shield training ability, that applies the Armor Training ACP reducer twice if you're wielding a Tower Shield, and also reduces the Tower Shield hit penalty.
Armor Training seems mostly untouched, aside from the extra armor DEX bonus to AC being converted into a straight dodge bonus (which is good). However, maybe you could double the armor training skill check penalty reduction? So reducing ACP by 2 instead of 1 every increment. Also, the increments seem a little skewed- there are 5 levels of Armor Training (3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th), but only a +4 to AC. 19th level doesn't actually do anything.
The Exotic Training thing seems nice, but seriously, who uses three separate exotic weapons? At most, you'd probably use two. The annoying thing about exotic weapons is that they're either powerful naturally (Katana, Wakizashi, Elven Curve Blade, Estoc, Falcata, Nodachi, Urumi, etc.), need a boatload of feats to function well (Whip, Net, Dorn-Dergar, Firearms), or are ridiculous and/or junk (Gnome Pincher, Siangham, Mancatcher, Battle Fan, etc.) Perhaps you could offer the option to pick three exotic weapons or one exotic weapon and two feats (besides Weapon Focus/Specialization/etc.) that require said exotic weapon?

DrNegative |

The language for the Fighting Man level dependent stuff could be altered like Brains and Brawn.
The range on Challenge is still somewhat strange. I could end a Challenge by backing off 30 feet, and force the Fighter to expend another one if he wants to keep challenging. Perhaps you could make it function a bit more like the Paladin's? So it would function all day, until you either kill the target, knock them out, die, or recharge your Challenges? But it only gives you a boost to hit or damage within 60 feet (doubled at 11th level). The wording on your version seems unnecessarily complex compared to the Cavalier and Paladin smitey-abilities. Perhaps you could take some text from those?
Also, are you going to keep it named "Challenge"? If you keep it this way, it would function with the Chain Challenge feat.
The elemental resistances seem a bit tame. Consider the Flame Oracle revelation:
Molten Skin wrote:Molten Skin (Ex): You gain resist fire 5. This resistance increases to 10 at 5th level and 20 at 11th level. At 17th level, you gain immunity to fire.Perhaps something like this, or instead of immunity, some sort of scaling +X to the save or something? Or doubling your Bravery bonus to saves against that element?
It would be cool to see some sort of Tower Shield training ability, that applies the Armor Training ACP reducer twice if you're wielding a Tower Shield, and also reduces the Tower Shield hit penalty.
Armor Training seems mostly untouched, aside from the extra armor DEX bonus to AC being converted into a straight dodge bonus (which is good). However, maybe you could double the armor training skill check penalty reduction? So reducing ACP by 2 instead of 1 every increment. Also, the increments seem a little skewed- there are 5 levels of Armor Training (3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th), but only a +4 to AC. 19th level doesn't actually do anything.
The Exotic Training thing seems nice, but seriously, who uses three separate exotic weapons? At most, you'd probably use two. The...
Noted.

My Self |
Oh, and since you have 6+INT skills per level, you should probably remove the Advanced Weapon Training option that lets you get 2 additional skills per level (which can be selected twice). It wouldn't exactly be fair to run over the Rogue's 8+INT skills on a 3/4 BAB chassis with your 10+INT skills on a full BAB chassis.
Although perhaps you could have a feat-like option to use the Resilience Rogue Talent? Or some sort of advanced Toughness ability that grants HP, maybe DR, and stacks with regular Toughness?

DrNegative |

Oh, and since you have 6+INT skills per level, you should probably remove the Advanced Weapon Training option that lets you get 2 additional skills per level (which can be selected twice). It wouldn't exactly be fair to run over the Rogue's 8+INT skills on a 3/4 BAB chassis with your 10+INT skills on a full BAB chassis.
Although perhaps you could have a feat-like option to use the Resilience Rogue Talent? Or some sort of advanced Toughness ability that grants HP, maybe DR, and stacks with regular Toughness?
Noted.
-----
Side Note, just for clarification. When I respond "Noted," I take what I'm responding to into consideration. Right now, early on, I will probably implement a lot of your suggestions, but not all of them.
Later on, I will be a little more meticulous about what I add, remove, or change.
Just wanted to throw that out there.

johnnythexxxiv |

YOu're going to have to break down that Math, Johnny.
Let's see, Barbarian>
+20 BAB, +4/+4 Str, +/+6 Witch Hunter, +6/+0 Reckless Abandon.
And Come and Get me. +30/+10 with any weapon, and if you're going to bring in Gloves of Dueling, the Furious Enhancement for +32/+12. +32/+14 2hw, of course. I assume you aren't adding in Power Attack, of course...
And Come and Get me. Did I mention Come and Get Me?Ranger: +20 BAB, +10/+10 FE, Instant Enemy. Leaden Weapon/Gravity bow for +3, so +30/+13. with any weapon.
Paladin: Let's say a 26 Cha at 20 for +8. So, +28/+20, auto confirm crits. Plus whatever your Sword bond gives you. With any weapon.
Fighter: I didn't see a weapon Spec rewrite, so WT+GWS+Gloves is +8/+10, for +28/+10 dmg, auto confirm crits at 20. Don't see a +30 dmg without using 2h power attack...and then only with a handful of weapons, as opposed to, say, IUS, Greatsword, and Longbow. Which every other class can do.
Yeah, fighter is definitely the WORST of these 4.
==================================Negative: Reword bravery: The Fighter also gains his Bravery bonus or his Intimidate Ranks, whichever is higher, as a bonus on all Fear saves.
At level 20, I would just make the crit ranges of your chosen 3 weapons all 19-20/x4...which is the BEST possible combination they can get. Everything becomes a falcata. That way, there's no irritating variance between weapons at the ultimate level, and you don't punish someone for NOT having a falcata or naginata or falchion.
==Aelryinth
I'm reading it as Challenge (+10/+5) + Weapons Training (+4/+4 generic and +4/+4 weapon group specific) + 17th Level Weapons Training doubling (+4/+4) + Mentor (+3/+3) + Gloves of Dueling (either +2/+2 or +4/+4 if 17th level doubling applies) for +27/+22 before adding in BAB, Strength and other goodies.

My Self |
Does Tough Physique stack with Armor Mastery? Does Achilles Heel stack with Armor Mastery? Does Armor Mastery stack with Adamantine armor?
Does the Fighting Man thing affect your ability to take Mage Hunter?
Would Armor Mastery's DR be better/worse if it was 1/2 armor bonus (if wearing armor) + 1/2 shield bonus (if using a shield)? At 19th, we'd probably be looking at something between a +5 haramaki (+6 AC, 3 DR) to +5 full plate (+14 AC, 7 DR) with a +5 tower shield (+9 AC, 4.5 DR) for a range of DR 3/- to DR 11/-, or maybe DR 13/- if they invest in Shield Focus and Greater Shield Focus. I suppose this would make it more complicated, but maybe it would reward heavy armor characters a bit more. Or maybe just a flat DR 5/- in light, 7/- in medium, and 10/- in heavy? Vanilla barbarians get a flat, unconditional DR 5/- at 19th. Invulnerable Ragers get flat DR 10/-. Insinuator Antipaladins get a switchable DR 5/- or DR 10/alignment at 17th, which improves to DR 10/- or DR 15/alignment at 20th. Perhaps Fighters could get something similar, like DR equal to level-10? I don't think it would hurt to give Fighters the option to have high amounts of DR.

Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

Aelryinth wrote:I'm reading it as Challenge (+10/+5) + Weapons Training (+4/+4 generic and +4/+4 weapon group specific) + 17th Level Weapons Training doubling (+4/+4) + Mentor (+3/+3) + Gloves of Dueling (either +2/+2 or +4/+4 if 17th level doubling applies) for +27/+22 before adding in BAB, Strength and other goodies.YOu're going to have to break down that Math, Johnny.
Let's see, Barbarian>
+20 BAB, +4/+4 Str, +/+6 Witch Hunter, +6/+0 Reckless Abandon.
And Come and Get me. +30/+10 with any weapon, and if you're going to bring in Gloves of Dueling, the Furious Enhancement for +32/+12. +32/+14 2hw, of course. I assume you aren't adding in Power Attack, of course...
And Come and Get me. Did I mention Come and Get Me?Ranger: +20 BAB, +10/+10 FE, Instant Enemy. Leaden Weapon/Gravity bow for +3, so +30/+13. with any weapon.
Paladin: Let's say a 26 Cha at 20 for +8. So, +28/+20, auto confirm crits. Plus whatever your Sword bond gives you. With any weapon.
Fighter: I didn't see a weapon Spec rewrite, so WT+GWS+Gloves is +8/+10, for +28/+10 dmg, auto confirm crits at 20. Don't see a +30 dmg without using 2h power attack...and then only with a handful of weapons, as opposed to, say, IUS, Greatsword, and Longbow. Which every other class can do.
Yeah, fighter is definitely the WORST of these 4.
==================================Negative: Reword bravery: The Fighter also gains his Bravery bonus or his Intimidate Ranks, whichever is higher, as a bonus on all Fear saves.
At level 20, I would just make the crit ranges of your chosen 3 weapons all 19-20/x4...which is the BEST possible combination they can get. Everything becomes a falcata. That way, there's no irritating variance between weapons at the ultimate level, and you don't punish someone for NOT having a falcata or naginata or falchion.
==Aelryinth
Oh!@ Well, Hell.
If all those things really stack and apply...before BAB? Hokey shiznits, Batman! That's waaaaaay over the line for combat needs.
Challenge should replace weapon training, period. Mentor should help others, not yourself (note you only count as your own ally if appropriate, and you are NOT your own Mentor). The gloves would tack on the end after WT doubled.
Yeah, just a few (waaaay too many) combat bonuses stacking up there.
The fighter doesn't need uber ownerage/beat all classes into the dust offensive ability. It needs the OTHER stuff.
I let class WT bonuses double if the Fighter takes WF for ONE weapon...it basically replaces the whole spec tree and is easier to track. I don't allow it across all weapons in a group, but I also changed the groups - Primary Weapons group is weapons the fighter actually picks and uses, instead of some batch of weapons forced upon him. So he gets his combat bonuses with IUS, Longbow, Greatsword, Longspear and Hand Axe, five different weapon groups are NOT required.
==Aelryinth

Ciaran Barnes |

SKILLS
Perhaps a silly nitpick of mine, but I don't think the "choose extra skills" thing should appear here. Maybe you should have a 1st level class feature that allows the fighter to choose extra skills, and then mention in the skill section that he also gains other skills. This would be more in line with what other classes have done. The oracle, for example.
BRAINS WITH BRAWN
My chief concern here is that you are encouraging the fighter to not invest in mental ability scores.
FIGHTING MAN
I like the brawler's martial versatility class feature better perhaps, but I think this is a suitable replacement. My only criticism is that it essentially serves as a second bonus feats at 1st level. The brawler's ability has a duration, so it is a resource that typically will not last between battles.
BRAVERY
I see little difference in granting a scaling bones to all saves and just giving the class three good saving throws. Your way keeps all good saves out of the hands of someone who dips 1 level, but it the long run the numbers for the two options are pretty close. I feel like this is just a way gain really strong saving throws without letting it appear on the class table. Also, I don't think that a constant bonus to all saves thematically serves an ability called "bravery".
MOBILE WARRIOR
The wording needs a lot of word. For the sake of simplicity, I would keep the dodge bonus set instead of having it decrease.
COMBAT AGILITY
Movement speed and agility aren't quite the same thing, but I suppose that's not a big deal. It would be easier if you just called this Fast Movement, like the monk and barbarian.
PAGE/SQUIRE/KNIGHT CLEAVE
I'd think that if I called a 6th or 11th level fighter a page or a squire, he would probably cleave me or slap me with a steel gauntlet at the very least. I think you could come up with some more thematically suitable names.

Cellion |

As other people have already noted, your raw numerical bonuses are way out of line. The Fighter is already in an OK place regarding their attack and damage bonuses, and all the additional flat bonuses here are just far too much.
Brains with Brawn - Should be called "Brawn over Brains". There are only a few feats that a fighter would want that thematically fit but that he is unable to easily get (INT 13 prereqs are generally the big offender). Getting to easily take things like Eldritch Heritage while dumping CHA is going to be possible with this feature... not sure how I feel about that. Also, requiring the PC to be a full fighter or the feature turns off is very inelegant. I would apply some brakes to the ability as a whole and take the restriction off.
Fighting Man - Having this at level 1 is frontloading you too much. You're granting full bab, 2 bonus feats (one of which is SUPER flexible) and challenge to a player that 1 level dips into the class. Also: How many times per day can the feat be switched? Why is there an option to remove a feat by not replace it?
I'd switch this to coming in at level 4 (this will also let you lift the inelegant restriction regarding 1st character level), and probably give fewer overall slots by level 20. I think you underestimate how powerful having a fully flexible slot like this is.
Challenge - Its a flat bonus on attack and damage with few limitations on a class that already has access to a lot of flat bonuses.
Bravery - This is a little weaker numerically than superstition while having none of the restrictions (ie. its always on, no issues with allied spells cast on you, covers all saving throws rather than a subset). Adding 2+Intimidate skill ranks to will saves vs fear on top of this might as well read: "You succeed on all will saves vs fear". (@10th level with 10 WIS, you have: +3BASE WILL +3BRAVERY +10INTIMIDATE +2 = +18 to will saves vs. fear with no other investments). If your intention is for the Fighter to be immune to fear, just give him that as a feature rather than beat around the bush. Otherwise this version of superstition is really strong.
Armor Training - By this point I was seeing a trend. More and more scaling bonuses here too. AC is typically not an issue to a well built Fighter.
Mobile Fighter - I agree with Ciaran, having the bonus AC scale up with level and down while using it is unwieldy. There is probably also no reason to provide bonus AC here (the player can pick up Mobility if they need it).
Weapon Training - Doubling up on the weapon training bonuses is also too much. At 17th you get to do even more doubling for no reason.
Special Tactics - Many of these items are thematically off (The brand abilities are something that the alchemist would be doing) or just more combat bonuses after your other features have laid out tons of combat bonuses. The Fortitude/Will/Reflex tactics are particularly out of line (At mid levels you get to auto succeed on two saves/day, plus you start being immune to conditions?). Also you probably switched stunned and staggered around on Honed Reflexes.
Cleave features - Grants way too many free attacks. Since your attack bonuses are sky high you effectively can't miss except on a 1, making the Fighter get so many extra attacks that the combat math completely falls apart. At 11th level, with the cleave features, good reach and other features of the class, you make 6 attacks whenever you full attack while also being able to move around up to 20ft. Also note that this favors melee over any other option in a big way.

DrNegative |

Thank you all for the feedback.
I now see my trend of just scaling so many things out of control.
It will probably take me a little while to go through and make all the necessary adjustments (not all of them will be done at once).
I hope to come back with something much better soon, and thanks again for the outside overview.
If you have any other suggestions, let me know and I will take a look.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
One other quick thing.
Could this still be called an alternate fighter, or should I come up with another name and make just a new class?

Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

Dr. Negative's Fighter is just fine for a name.
Dont' be too worried about changing martial versatility, although moving it back a level might not be bad.
I'd make Challenge a set bonus and tie it to x/day, with requirements of belonging to an knightly order or following a code of chivalry, or treat it as 'anti-rage' with a lawful req.
==Aelryinth

Scud422 |

I would like to see this as an archetype change to challenge or perhaps a tactic that adds this effect to the challenge:
Challenge – At 1st level, 2 times per day, the fighter can mark an opponent with a Challenge. As a swift action, the fighter can mark an enemy within 30ft. This mark lasts for 1 hour or until the enemy is slain. While marked, the enemy has -4 to attack and -2 to damage when attacking anyone except the fighter. If the enemy moves more than 60ft away from him, the mark is lost. At 6th, 11th, and 16th level, the fighter gains an extra use per day of this ability. At 11th level, the ranges which the mark can be made and which the mark is sustained and lost are doubled.
Also, a note: you changed Bravery to Battle Focus but many tactics in the doc still mention Bravery.

Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

You're putting in a double relationship into the combat where you want to keep it singular. Just make it a +2 bonus to hit the mark and a -2 to hit anyone else while marked.
remember the base fighting ability of the fighter is already high, you don't NEED a large bonus. This is something that will basically be brought out for an edge in boss fights.
==Aelryinth

My Self |
I've said this already, but perhaps you could include options (or built-in features) that significantly reduce ACP? Clerics and Warpriests casting Effortless Armor get a better ACP reduction than Fighters do. Also, a special tactic that lets you use Tower Shield effectively (reducing or removing the -2 to hit and ACP) would be nice.

DrNegative |

I've said this already, but perhaps you could include options (or built-in features) that significantly reduce ACP? Clerics and Warpriests casting Effortless Armor get a better ACP reduction than Fighters do. Also, a special tactic that lets you use Tower Shield effectively (reducing or removing the -2 to hit and ACP) would be nice.
I increased the ACP reduction with Armor Training (to -6 reduction), as well as adding a small ACP reduction in Armor Mastery.
I also created 2 new tactics, Shield Training and Tower Shield Training, to help with using shields more effectively as you suggested.
What do you think?

Goth Guru |

A lot of this is good, if sometimes confusing, but all versions of fighter need a tourniquet on the skill point Intelligence "bonus".
If the Int "bonus" is negative, it should not effect the number of available skill points.
While I think fighter skills should start at the fighter level, then extra skill points can be added, that might fall into the my idea of a fighter category.

My Self |
My Self wrote:I've said this already, but perhaps you could include options (or built-in features) that significantly reduce ACP? Clerics and Warpriests casting Effortless Armor get a better ACP reduction than Fighters do. Also, a special tactic that lets you use Tower Shield effectively (reducing or removing the -2 to hit and ACP) would be nice.I increased the ACP reduction with Armor Training (to -6 reduction), as well as adding a small ACP reduction in Armor Mastery.
I also created 2 new tactics, Shield Training and Tower Shield Training, to help with using shields more effectively as you suggested.
What do you think?
Shield Training seems a bit... uh... feat tax-y. Most shields (Tower Shield excluded) have a low enough ACP that the investment is usually not worth it.
Also, the ACP reduction is most needed at early levels, when you can't power through the penalties with your skill ranks. Maybe you frontload it a bit and set it to a base +3, and increase by 1 every armor training level? Also, include the text about increasing ACP reduction at 19th level under regular Armor Training, not Armor Mastery.
The Cleave stuff is confusingly worded. Suggested rewordings:
Warrior's Cleave
At 6th level, the Fighter gains Cleave as a bonus feat. The second target of a Fighter's Cleave need not be adjacent to the first target. 3 times per encounter, as part of a full attack, he may Cleave in place of a single attack, using that attack's bonus to calculate his Cleave attack bonus.
Gladiator's Cleave
At 11th level, once per round, the Fighter may take a free 5-foot step between targets of a Cleave, including the Cleave granted by Warrior's Cleave. This 5-foot step provokes attacks of opportunity, but the Fighter gains the Mobile Warrior dodge bonus for this step. After a Gladiator's Cleave, the Fighter takes an additional -2 to AC until the start of his next turn.
Champion's Cleave
At 16th level, the Fighter learns to sweep through rows of enemies with his strikes. He may take 5-foot steps and extra attacks from Gladiator's Cleave any number of times per round. He takes a cumulative -2 to hit each successive enemy after the second. The Cleave ends as normal if he fails to hit an enemy. After a Champion's Cleave, the Fighter takes a -2 to AC until the start of his next turn, which stacks with the -2 from Gladiator's Cleave.
This form of Warrior's cleave slightly more powerful in a way than your version, since it gives actual Cleave and lets you burst all your Cleave attacks against a pair of targets. You could add the line "He may only use this ability once per round" or something, but this should simplify the wording. Though I'd also reconsider the 3/encounter limit and perhaps just have at will, 3+STR/day or 1/round.
Also, perhaps you have the Mobile Warrior dodge bonus apply to all 5-foot steps, not just the ones that provoke AOOs? So if somebody readies an action to smack you when you step away, you get the dodge bonus?

DrNegative |

DrNegative wrote:My Self wrote:I've said this already, but perhaps you could include options (or built-in features) that significantly reduce ACP? Clerics and Warpriests casting Effortless Armor get a better ACP reduction than Fighters do. Also, a special tactic that lets you use Tower Shield effectively (reducing or removing the -2 to hit and ACP) would be nice.I increased the ACP reduction with Armor Training (to -6 reduction), as well as adding a small ACP reduction in Armor Mastery.
I also created 2 new tactics, Shield Training and Tower Shield Training, to help with using shields more effectively as you suggested.
What do you think?
Shield Training seems a bit... uh... feat tax-y. Most shields (Tower Shield excluded) have a low enough ACP that the investment is usually not worth it.
Also, the ACP reduction is most needed at early levels, when you can't power through the penalties with your skill ranks. Maybe you frontload it a bit and set it to a base +3, and increase by 1 every armor training level? Also, include the text about increasing ACP reduction at 19th level under regular Armor Training, not Armor Mastery.
The Cleave stuff is confusingly worded. Suggested rewordings:
** spoiler omitted **...This form of Warrior's cleave slightly more powerful in a way than your version, since it gives actual Cleave and lets you burst all your Cleave attacks against a pair of targets. You could add the line "He may only use this ability once per round" or something, but this should simplify the wording. Though I'd also reconsider the 3/encounter limit and perhaps just have at will, 3+STR/day or 1/round.
Also, perhaps you have the Mobile Warrior dodge bonus apply to all 5-foot steps, not just the ones that provoke AOOs? So if somebody readies an action to smack you when you step away, you get the dodge bonus?
Noted.