rapid shot or 2 weapon fighting?


hello forum members i'm looking for advice on the feat my newly dinged lvl 3 character should take.

now before you look at my build there is something big that needs to be pointed out.
we are using a revised system of feats from this link http://theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/

now with that out of the way here is my current character

roger norton
lvl 3 human stygian slayer (with alternate human trait that gives 3 skill focus feats)


with alternate favored class bonus 1/6 th of a slayer talent each lvl

lvl 1 precise shot, skill focus (perception)

lvl 2 slayer talent (trap finding)

lvl 3 ?

lvl 4 no slayer talent invisibility 1/day

lvl 5?

lvl 6 slayer talents weapon taining kukri, slayer talent combat trick slashing grace

lvl 7 greater twf

lvl 8 skill focus (stealth)(from alt human trait), slayer talent (ranger style) manyshot

lvl 9 improved crit (kukri)

and that's all I have so far so i'm wondering whether i should take rapid shot at lvl 3 or 5, or should I take two weapon fighting at lvl 3 or 5? or maybe I should focus on something else?

Why are you doing both melee and ranged?

Pick one and stick with that.

You seem to have more feats dedicated to ranged attacks using your Slayer talents to get ranger combat styles so I would stick to that.

Rangers can get Point Blank Master through their Combat Style and don't provoke AoO when firing, so there is no point in putting anything into melee combat.

Even though you are a slayer, follow this basic guide.

Because id like to be able to to do both ranged and melee and I plan on picking up the assassinate advanced slayer talent later and that's melee only

Grand Lodge

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Declindgrunt wrote:
Because id like to be able to to do both ranged and melee and I plan on picking up the assassinate advanced slayer talent later and that's melee only

No one here is really going to support that stance. If you try to "be good at everything" then you're just going to end up sucking and not being good at anything. Pick something to focus on (like archery) and do that.

then what would i do with all my other feats because for archery all you really need it precise rapid and many shot

Declindgrunt wrote:
Because id like to be able to to do both ranged and melee and I plan on picking up the assassinate advanced slayer talent later and that's melee only

Well, from a mechanics perspective it's a bad decision.

If you want to do melee-ranged you're doing what's called a switch hitter build. But if you're doing so then the above build is a mistake.

Switch hitters are mostly melee, and only shoot arrows until the enemy is close enough for melee. However, your character stats aren't really set up to support this. And if you're going to do it you should focus on a single two-handed weapon, not on TWF.

Declindgrunt wrote:
then what would i do with all my other feats because for archery all you really need it precise rapid and many shot

No no no no my friend. You are incredibly mistaken.

Please go back and reread that first link I place, you need:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Deadly Aim
Weapon Focus
Point Blank Master or Improved Precise Shot (6th level Style feat)
POint Blank Master or Improved Precise Shot (10th level style feat, which you didn't take before)

This will take you up to level 10, and you will have only one feat not spoken for.

Perhaps try Ranged Feint since you get sneak attack. Of course clustered shots is a better recommendation since DR will only apply against your attacks once.

Edit: Since your feat taxes remove Point Blank Shot and Deadly Aim as feats, you have two feats to work in. I suggest clustered shots, combat reflexes, and snap shot.

Although I don't discourage switch hitting as much as claudekennilol, there are many more ranged feats worth considering.

Snap shot line, weapon focus, deadly aim, clustered shots, point blank master, and improved precise shot to name a few.

Archery feats:

Precise shot
Many Shot
Rapid Shot
Clustered Shots
Point Blank Master
Improved Precise Shot
Weapon Focus
Snap Shot
Improved Snap Shot
Greater Snap Shot

These are without deadly aim and point blank as I see they are removed in your game. You want all of the above.

You need far more than those two feats.

Archery feats: Point Blank Shot*, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, Manyshot, Deadly Aim*, Clustered Shot, Improved Precise Shot, and Point Blank Master.
*indicates feat removed via the house rule you are using.

If you want to go for attacks of opportunity you can go with Combat Reflexes and the Snap Shot tree.

Then the non-archery feats you can take are:
Iron Will (your will save is bad), Toughness (hp is always good), Mobility (Dodge), and Shadow Strike (for your sneak attacks).

okay then so lvl 3 ill get rapid shot

lvl 5 combat reflexes

lvl 6 weapon focus longbow, many shot (slayer talents weapon training, style feat)

lvl 7 snapshot

lvl 8 skill focus stealth, improved snapshot (Slayer talent)

lvl 9 cluster shot

lvl 11 improved precise shot

lvl 12 greater snapshot (slayer talent) , some other slayer talent?

how does that sound?

Slayers make good STR-based TWFers, since they can ignore DEX prerequisites on the feats that matter the most. However, since you're doing a DEX to damage build, you can't TWF. Slashing Grace (and the other X Grace DEX to damage feats) prohibit you from TWFing with it. So drop the TWF feats, since they're not going to work with DEX to damage anyways. Also consider picking up some goodies to fill out and customize your character concept.

For your archery chain...

Take Weapon Focus, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Point-Blank Master, Manyshot, and Improved Precise Shot. I'd recommend taking Improved Precise Shot or Point-Blank Master as your 6th level Ranger Style feat.

If you don't pick Point-Blank Master as your 6th level feat, you should consider the Empty Quiver Style chain, since it lets you threaten up close using your bow as a melee weapon. If your take Point-Blank Master, then you could consider the Snap Shot feat chain and Combat Reflexes, which also lets you threaten up close using your bow. The rest of the Snap Shot chain lets you threaten in an area further away from you, which is pretty cool.

ok so lvl 6 Ill pick up many shot with a combat trick slayer talent and improved precise shot then what about lvl 5 7 9 etc...

You don't need to pursue ranged of melee exclusively, but an attempt to become equally competent at both may prove futile - particularly if you want to fight with two melee weapons. Which style is more exciting to you? With you ability scores, ranged combat seems the easy choice. Since you using a set of rules that gives you free access to feats like weapon finesse and power attack, you will be able to pick up a sword and use it when you want. My suggestion is that you neither split your feats equally or invest completely in one style or the other. Give one style about 2/3 of your feats, and give 1/3 to the other. If you are undecided on which to focus on, that is OK. By the time you get to 3rd level, you should have a better idea which you spend more time using.

Well, this is interesting. Normally taking two styles is impossible. It's only just about plausible with Slayer or Ranger because they can miss some of the pre-requisites. Even then, it's normally limited to a two-handed melee side with limited archery, dropping the bow once the enemy are up close.

However, this altered feat list makes things much easier. If your plan is only to do archery while you're actually at range, and given that Deadly Aim is free, then you could probably get away with taking Ranger combat style: archery as your L2/L6/L10 picks, and going Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and probably Improved Precise Shot at 10. Or you could get the IPS at 6 and take Manyshot as a normal feat, given that (compared to normal) you have bags of feats spare.

And that leaves you free to spend most of your feats on melee. TWF still isn't the best style, but this is one of the classes that do it relatively well. Sneak attack and studied target help.

If you wanted to be an archer who also TWFs, you could take Precise Shot at level 1, then Rapid as a style at 2, then TWF at 3, Accomplished Sneak Attacker at 5. 6 and 7 would bring Manyshot and Improved Precise. After that... well, you could get weapon focus in everything. I mean, play through to it and you'll have a better idea.

Alternatively, if you wanted to play up the TWF, start with that, still take Rapid Shot as a style at 2, and take Accomplished Sneak Attacker at 3. 5 is... kind of open. I mean, it could go precise shot to converge with the "more archery" list, allowing IPS as style and Manyshot as standard feats. You'd actually be running a little short of feats to throw at pure damage for TWF- you could take weapon focus, but double slice doesn't do much for you except open up two-weapon rend at L11. You could actually just stick with rapid shot + manyshot for archery all the way until 10, and instead pick up Deft Maneuvers and start doing all kinds of fun stuff.
Edited to add: Brain fart on my part! Of course you'd want the modified Greater TWF at 7. Obviously.

Incidentally, did you consider multiclassing rogue for dex-to-damage and a bit more sneak attack? If TWF is your favourite thing, it might be worth it.

Also, I think most of your respondents missed the altered feat tree, which is unfortunate.

Out of interest, why str 13 int 14, not the other way round?

Claxon wrote:

Why are you doing both melee and ranged?

Pick one and stick with that.

I wouldn't say that you need to stick with one, but if you want to do both, then it is generally best to do so with very specific goals and builds in mind.

For a switch hitter, there would be two main routes: 2 handed and archery, or throwing.

With 2 handed+archery, it is about simplicity. 2 handed only needs 1 feat really, and then everything else can be archery. It doesn't see the crunch of trying to get two feat intensive styles, archery and TWF, on the same build.

With throwing... it has a lot of potential, since it CAN combine the two styles or ranged and TWF, but a lot of crunch. With ricochet shot making throwing viable, it is perfectly legitimate to make a build that could just as easily throw a dagger as shank the guy right next to you. The advantage here is that your weapons and specialized feats (like weapon focus) applies to every kind of attack you usually make, and your TWF feats can apply as ranged feats for the 'need more attack bits.

In the throwing build, after getting the 'can shoot into melee' starter pack for ranged feats, I would go with a TWF focus since it applies to both ranges. Still, rather feat intensive (ricochet shot, bare bones archery, TWF).

I think that certain weapons allow for twf and the rapid shot style feats. Mainly throwing weapons and crossbows, although with crossbows you need to reload them fast enough. With twf and gtwf and rapid shot, I believe that you can do one more attack than a straight archery build with manyshot. Ideally this build would work best with a melee weapon that can also be thrown, daggers specifically would be great for this.

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