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I was more miffed that I missed the option to raise the dead Pathfinder.I certainly would have allowed you to pursue that option had you brought it up; however, in hindsight, perhaps I should have explicitly asked if you wanted to do so.
I think we just rushed the mission briefings and debriefings a bit too much. I look forward to taking a little more time on that part when I run this in the future.
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So, I guess my question as I'm planning on running it at con this Memorial Day:
What would you prioritize in terms of time for this scenario?
This is a difficult question and strongly depends on how well you know the players and characters, as well as the typical combat tactics. As such, here are my loose recommendations:
Farabellus intro: 5-10 minutes
Emir Intro to incident notification: 5-10 minutes
Initial scene investigation: 2-3 minutes
Combat 1: 45-75 minutes (so many combatants!)
Post-fight: 5-10 minutes (my players used a Speak With Dead here on Imlathre and the limited info available from Harkas and Rosham make them quick)
Leadership: 15-20 minutes
Combat 2 + clean-up: 30-45 minutes
Combat 3: 15-75 minutes
SOE arguments: 5-10 minutes
Scenario clean-up: 10-20 minutes
Total estimate: Between 2.25 hours and 4.75 hours. Adjust estimates for table-talk tax by adding about an hour and you're looking at 3.25-5.75 hours. Note that some of that table talk should be getting to know the character capabilities for use during combats 2 and 3. While Loaralis didn't have the full dossiers, she clearly should have been informed of some basics of the party (mounted lancer, 2 wizards, look out for X tactic, etc. level info).
My table pushed past upper limits on RP sections and had a bit more table talk, particularly as one of the players forgot her character sheet and had to have it delivered. As such, that pushed me up to 6.5 hours.
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The players at my table conveniently realized, with no prompting, that they could hand Imlathre's equipment off. This neither soaks them for gold on the chronicle nor takes items from their characters. In either subtier, the armor, ring, and headband will cover the players for the +4 equipment bonus.
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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To those who have already GMed this and noted how long it took you to go from start to finish, thank you. This is really helpful information, especially as I develop Part 2 and write Part 3. Seeker-level adventures are, after all, relatively uncharted territory for me.
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So I was the GM for andreww, and he did a good job of summarizing the mission (while I was writing the summary myself!) - but I'll add a couple things.
In the introduction, one detail to add is to have the Emir ask the PCs to introduce themselves, only to have Saabira cut in and name everybody and then add "I've been studying up on them for the past hour. I don't need introductions." It's slightly off-putting and helps set up both the dossiers of the 3 groups and why Saabira is so prepared for them later.
The timing of 4.5 hours is right, but would've been slightly shorter had I been a bit more familiar with blink. Also I'll be finishing up my prep and putting that up - I was constantly looking up things on my iPad while I was running. We'll of course see how long it takes the 2nd time I run it.
Encounters that depend on something bad happening to the PCs are a big no-no. The first encounter depends on someone going to the astral plane, which is not great. I'm fine with how I resolved the situation in retrospect, but it felt like a hack at the time.
(Also, the party was never aware that there was anything on the astral plane, which led to the Kernaug group asking "Wait, so we're supposed to check to see if there's any extraplanar activity on ANY plane around there? What are you, nuts?")
I actually liked the round-by-round tactics - high level characters have lots of possibilities, but the encounter needs to feel a certain way, and this helped focus me on getting the feel of the encounter through, even if I didn't follow those tactics exactly for 2/3 of the encounters.
There's a LOT in this scenario that's negated by freedom of movement, and the encounters all happen within a short time of each other. 2 of the combats want to grapple the pcs, and the third depends on repulsion and anti-life shell. I realize that freedom of movement negates a lot, but it would've been nice to see an encounter that didn't just get run over by that.
Super excited to run this again and to see the rest of the series!
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@andreww - not quoting everything because I'd have to pull it out of spoiler tags. Shouldn't really need them in the GM thread, mind you.
Imlathre: I was similarly dismayed by the lack of Freedom of Movement and other buffs. Similar to your play experience, my table didn't get pulled in, so he quickened Plane Shift to arrive, then threw out a persistent Feeblemind before turning into a popsicle.
Return to Pashow: Treat that as a failure of the stealth check, IMO. That's the best I can guess.
Leadership bits: I treated the items like one would sundered loot or consumed potions - they're still there for the chronicle and don't detract from the gold. As I posted above, the headband, armor, and ring cover the +4 version of the bonus for each team.
re: boon - one of the most important aspects to bear in mind is "who finds the portable hole?" For most tables, this will have a significant impact on the RP that follows. Did the LG inquisitor find it? What about the CN sticky-fingers rogue? At my table, an Iomedaean inquisitor found it, announced what was found, and wouldn't let the rest of the party near the vials, more or less.
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Thursty and Jon get an A+ for content on this one. Great story and worthy of a group of Seekers. I am very much excited to get into the meat of it.
Due to time constraints, we are running everything through the initial interaction with The Emir through e-mail, so when we gather on Saturday we can jump right into the first encounter.
Based on commentary sneaking out through the players I'm discovering the following, which can be of concern for GMs with particularly suspicious groups:
So what I'm doing, even if it's subtle enough, is to get a name of somebody "in power" associated with each of the six primary convoys. In other words, spread the potential mole to everybody in the room so the players aren't instantly pointing at one. Instead suspicious groups start questioning everybody involved (or become less suspicious in everybody if they are really trusting). Here are my associations:
The Faithful Procession: Clearly called out as being suggested/offered by Kaarim.
Inquisition of Inevitables: High conjurer Farhaana the conjurer that is doing all the teleportation magic.
Pashow's Parade Caravan: Saabira Taheri suggested the military contingent (since a good contingent would come from her guard).
Pathfinder Delivery: After being approached, Marcos Farabellus suggests this one.
Lord Lightfoot: The Citadel of the Alchemist itself suggested Lord Lightfoot due to work he has done with them in the past.
Sable Company Envoys: The Emir, who has contacts in Korvosa offered up this contract.
I have no idea if this will work, or even if it will help keep players on-task, but they seem to be picking up on it.
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Leadership bits: I treated the items like one would sundered loot or consumed potions - they're still there for the chronicle and don't detract from the gold. As I posted above, the headband, armor, and ring cover the +4 version of the bonus for each team.
Honestly, I'm not sure about this. I feel as though the PCs should be giving up, well, something for those bonuses. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but this doesn't sit fully right with me.
Now, if the PCs just gave away found consumables, then, yes, I'd think of it as if they used it themselves during the game.
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Thursty and Jon get an A+ for content on this one. Great story and worthy of a group of Seekers. I am very much excited to get into the meat of it.
Due to time constraints, we are running everything through the initial interaction with The Emir through e-mail, so when we gather on Saturday we can jump right into the first encounter.
Based on commentary sneaking out through the players I'm discovering the following, which can be of concern for GMs with particularly suspicious groups:
** spoiler omitted **...
Good points on that. My table was actually more suspicious of the faithful procession due to a fantastic Kn: Arcana on the Juggernaut and determining that someone could likely walk up to it with a holy symbol and just take the SOE.
One thing I specifically did to mitigate some concern was assure the PCs that the caravans themselves all thought they had the real thing. I also detailed several caravans coming in to deliver the elixir in the exact same manner as the real ones and the vials looking exactly the same.
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I was more put off by the fact that the Emir was telling all of us about these caravans as lackeys were running in and out of the tent. No mention of scrying protections either.
In and out of the tent? The briefing and discussions are supposed to be occuring in the Emir's house with minimal involvement of anybody not "inside" the plan. At least I read the latter due to the location of the former.
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First off, awesome scenario. I'll try to consolidate more thoughts as I dig into things.
Even though it's high level, and it involves high level combats, the real linchpin to this entire story are the social encounters. Without them it's "just combat". So when you're running it, make sure the players are relaying the story back to you. What I've found works is to ask the players to describe what they think is going on to their superiors, or to the Emir, or to the team's they're coordinating. It consolidates the storyline in their head and turns it into more than just block text.
More importantly is the "You be a VC" section of the story. This can be run very well, but it's very easy to screw up (I tended more towards the later). Trying to give the PCs the ammunition they need to become the Venture Captains without letting them hang themselves with mechanics is key. In other words, even though it's easy to give yourself more time for combats at the expense of this section - don't. Provide sufficient time. Having them be venture captains is key, because without it, this scenario is just fighting.
It starts by providing large note cards & post-its.
On the post-its, include "ideas for kinds of missions you could send the team on". These should be elevator pitches, not information about "I suspect this will happen with this group," and more a "your objective is". More blank ones can be provided for them to create their own missions of their own choice with their own elevator pitches. The idea is to get the group thinking of what they want their Pathfinders to do.
Then, once they have their post-it notes in hand, hand out the descriptions of the teams, and a note card for each team with the team name at the top. Have the group assign the teams by putting the post-it with the mission description on the card. What this is doing is eliminating the confusion of "I intended to say". Trust me, it's easy for things to go awry at that point, especially as players start talking over each other and start suggesting "variants" of the core missions.
Next, have the player bullet point out items that will go into their mission briefing to the pathfinder team. Tell them to be creative in what they want them to investigate, who they're looking for, and what information they chose to provide.
Then say, "I'm going to hit up the restroom, get a drink, and be back in 15 minutes. After I'm back you need to give me a note card of a team with a post-it for a mission elevator pitch, and three bullet points items of what you're planning on telling your Pathfinders.
At this point figure out appropriate skills based on the post-it of the mission (most will probably come from the scenario, but if they're very creative there could be lots of options). Then determine the base bonus each team gets based on their skills and the player rolls for the knowledge skills.
Next based on the knowledge skills, be creative and tweak out their descriptions a bit (nothing too serious, but name places and/or people that their characters know about) and hand the post it back. At this time the players should be ready to actually give a briefing, and hopefully with little confusion.
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Sin, you have some amazing autocorrect or text-to-speech going on in that post.
@andreww - I would attribute your high-tier table's issues to party composition and the relatively small impact of the 4-player adjustment. That table doesn't immediately strike me as being up to the challenge in the first place, but depending on spells prepped and build choices, it should have been possible. I definitely agree that the 4-player adjustment is tiny, though.
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** spoiler omitted **
You may want to talk to your GM. There is no way to 'fail' that encounter. Tactics as written do not allow it to occur, and you will meet the encounter's BBEG. You may not receive all the background information for...
...but you absolutely should 'finish' the encounter.
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Sat on the other side of the screen for this last night as a local VO was preparing to run this at Gen Con. This is kind of a minor complaint re: editing and positioning, but for the Loaralis fight, the dispel DC is multiple pages away from the disable device bit (pg 23 vs 25-26). If there are hazards like this in future scenarios, I would strongly suggest putting all of this information in a single sidebar.
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I understand that Abadar is a LN god and that he can have Clerics of LE alignment, but I'm having trouble understanding how Kaarim's actions haven't resulted in him losing his powers.
He's personally committed theft, and his actions have directly led to the destabilization of Pashow, the interruption of lawful commerce, and have in general harmed the community. Clerics may not have quite the behavior restrictions that paladins do, but this does seem to qualify as a gross violation of Abadar's code of conduct.
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Before I run it again, I will be creating a set of cheat sheets with all of the DCs, special rules, etc., so that they are (hopefully) easy to use.
Not 100% sure what that will look like.
One thing I did, that I got positive feedback on, was when the group had the option of drinking the Sun Orchid Elixer, I went to a different room, and asked each the question individually. Felt that kept the potential problems at the table down to a minimum, since when I played it, we didn't realize it was an individual choice.
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One thing I did, that I got positive feedback on, was when the group had the option of drinking the Sun Orchid Elixer, I went to a different room, and asked each the question individually. Felt that kept the potential problems at the table down to a minimum, since when I played it, we didn't realize it was an individual choice.
Not a bad idea - it also keeps individual pissing and moaning to a minimum when somebody does decide to do it. "I stop you" isn't an acceptable answer, even though players could easily think it is.
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Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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I understand that Abadar is a LN god and that he can have Clerics of LE alignment, but I'm having trouble understanding how Kaarim's actions haven't resulted in him losing his powers.
He's personally committed theft, and his actions have directly led to the destabilization of Pashow, the interruption of lawful commerce, and have in general harmed the community. Clerics may not have quite the behavior restrictions that paladins do, but this does seem to qualify as a gross violation of Abadar's code of conduct.
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Not a bad idea - it also keeps individual pissing and moaning to a minimum when somebody does decide to do it. "I stop you" isn't an acceptable answer, even though players could easily think it is.One thing I did, that I got positive feedback on, was when the group had the option of drinking the Sun Orchid Elixer, I went to a different room, and asked each the question individually. Felt that kept the potential problems at the table down to a minimum, since when I played it, we didn't realize it was an individual choice.
It also mirrors the way I and others handle a certain deal with the devil in another Season 7 scenario.
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** spoiler omitted **I understand that Abadar is a LN god and that he can have Clerics of LE alignment, but I'm having trouble understanding how Kaarim's actions haven't resulted in him losing his powers.
He's personally committed theft, and his actions have directly led to the destabilization of Pashow, the interruption of lawful commerce, and have in general harmed the community. Clerics may not have quite the behavior restrictions that paladins do, but this does seem to qualify as a gross violation of Abadar's code of conduct.
Thanks, that works for me and fits quite well with his LE alignment.
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It also mirrors the way I and others handle a certain deal with the devil in another Season 7 scenario.Not a bad idea - it also keeps individual pissing and moaning to a minimum when somebody does decide to do it. "I stop you" isn't an acceptable answer, even though players could easily think it is.One thing I did, that I got positive feedback on, was when the group had the option of drinking the Sun Orchid Elixer, I went to a different room, and asked each the question individually. Felt that kept the potential problems at the table down to a minimum, since when I played it, we didn't realize it was an individual choice.
In general, I liked this (I was at Jack's table). I agree that individual answers should matter. The one problem I have is if a specific PC locates the portable hole and says they want to Sleight of Hand or otherwise obfuscate the objective. It's possible (though unlikely) that a PC could succeed at the Sense Motive, locate the portable hole, and teleport (however ill-advised) to the Emir without allowing the other agents the opportunity to take actions. Similarly, you could see some impressive Bluff checks that, indeed, the fireball broke the vials on the dragon's neck and the SOEs are destroyed, then Sleight of Hand the vials out of the portable hole before telling the party about your discovery.
There's also the hilarious possibility that a player tries to stuff the portable hole (with all its loot) inside their haversack.
It's a pretty big break from realism to allow individual choices to matter. I think it's right and justified, but I can imagine a number of characters who would be built and have personalities conducive to the above solutions where the players would feel robbed of character development opportunities.
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Running this today for our VC and other lodge players who did not get to play it a GenCon. This thread is very helpful, thank you!
(And yeah, I forsee the freedom of movement for PCs being an issue that will end the first fight quick.)
I will share feedback and results!
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Just played this. 5 players, high tier, Core.
Enjoyed it a lot even though the final encounter was WAY more than we could handle (we fled from it). Core does substantially reduce options, even for casters. Looking at this thread, all the groups who found the scenario easy used things unavailable to us poor Core mortals :-)
But I wanted to REALLY disagree with the following that John Compton wrote about motivations
Kaarim might have been on the way to losing his powers, but he's no doubt justified undermining Pashow based on his belief that Emir Guldis has led the city-state to near-ruin. Only by tipping Pashow closer to disaster can he help instigate its annexation by a more competent neighbor: Aspenthar. Indeed, Kaarim may even share Prince Zinlo's aspirations of empire, seeing that as a greater tribute to Abadar than a middling principality that can't guard a caravan over a 50-mile trip.
In my opinion there is absolutely NO way a cleric of Abadar is just on the way to losing his power. Abadar is all about contracts, doing what is right for a city, etc. In any home game I've ever been in a PC cleric would have lost his powers LONG before getting that far.
This single betrayal should very significantly affect the entire religion of Abadar across Golarion as it shows that its priests can NOT be trusted
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Venture-Agent, Michigan—Detroit
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Questions...
EDIT: Added spoiler tags just in case.