
Galadryel |
Hi,
I'm currently making a adventure for another group and I have been tasked about making a quest for a party of 4+1npc of relatively high level 15-16.
Quick reference, they have finished the Shattered star path last sunday.
My problem lies in what a ''normal party'' of that level look like.
The group I play with is let's say... strange.
They don't optimise, don't care about party balance nor being a bunch of good guy's (to the point of eradicating themselves) and they like it really gory.
Thus my question:
Could anyone help me figuring out what I could expect of their characters, please.
Thank you for your time.

Galadryel |
You can expect 8th level spells from at least 1 player, fairly fast combat, everyone can probably fly, they can probably escape fairly easily with magic, so feel free to put something really scary they should run from in there, good luck thinking of what though.
note note ... as for really scary would a really high lv Npc (20+) familiar with the aera and it's inhabitant having a score to settle sound?
thanks for the input!

lemeres |

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:Beyond 12th level, there is no such thing as a "standard" party.I'm pretty sure that most group won't use their only ranged character as monster bait... or their wizard as food... or poisoning one another before a big fight...
1. Eh, I can do a high AC boltslinger. One handed cross bow, a buckler, mithral breastplate, and scaling bonus to AC when in light armor. Add in some of the various abilities that remove AoOs with loading and shooting crossbows, and they can be a fine tank. Good fort and reflex, decent wisdom for grit...
2. I know of how to use the paladin for food. It was the odd result of a thread discussing cannibalism, the harsh realities of sea travel, and the realization tht paladins have restoration and decent healing abilities. Of course, I realized the only moral choice in that scenario was for the paladin to suffer the pain of getting cut up fo food and healing himself, rather than allowing another to suffer.3. I am not familiar with all the pathfinder options, but some pokemon builds rely on poisoning yourself to activate rather conditional special abilities. I wouldn't be suprised if pathfinder had "get +4 str when poisoned" type abilities that no one bothers to use.

Galadryel |
Are they using the same characters they used in Shattered Star? If so, you can just ask to look at their character sheets.
I would have done that, but their GM came to ask me about replacing him temporary for the following weeks after his group left...
An I would fell real bad if I can't at least bring something to the table (at least enough for a session) thus my interest in what to expect.Lemeres, thanks a lot for that idea!

voideternal |
voideternal wrote:Are they using the same characters they used in Shattered Star? If so, you can just ask to look at their character sheets.I would have done that, but their GM came to ask me about replacing him temporary for the following weeks after his group left...
Sorry, I don't quite understand. Is there something preventing you from asking your players what kind of characters they will bring to the session?
Without any information on your players, for combat encounters, I would go by the Monster Creation Chart for a guideline on how strong the monsters should be. I would pick a combination of monsters between CR 11 to 17, and I would aim to make the encounters CR 15.
For out of combat encounters, I would keep in mind that spells of 8th level or lower is fair game. That generally means they should be able to muster up an answer to pretty much anything.

Galadryel |
Galadryel wrote:voideternal wrote:Are they using the same characters they used in Shattered Star? If so, you can just ask to look at their character sheets.I would have done that, but their GM came to ask me about replacing him temporary for the following weeks after his group left...Sorry, I don't quite understand. Is there something preventing you from asking your players what kind of characters they will bring to the session?
Without any information on your players, for combat encounters, I would go by the Monster Creation Chart for a guideline on how strong the monsters should be. I would pick a combination of monsters between CR 11 to 17, and I would aim to make the encounters CR 15.
For out of combat encounters, I would keep in mind that spells of 8th level or lower is fair game. That generally means they should be able to muster up an answer to pretty much anything.
I'll try to be more clear (English is not my native tongue), I can't contact any of them at the moment thus my ability to make something for their group is out of my reach. And since I never did a quest for the ''higher tier's'' I'm pretty much in a pinch.
I'm sorry that I have trouble explaining myself in English sometime...

Galadryel |
If that's the case, use these characters as guidelines:
Fighter
Cleric
Rogue
WizardKeep in mind that your players will have PC gear, and not NPC gear like above. They will likely be stronger.
Ouch, now I see where the bar need to be set for them to enjoy their adventure.
Thank you very much.
Going to put some numbers down now :)

SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |

Expect lots of "counters" to special abilities and attacks and barriers and hazards.
Expect lots of immunities and resistances, and not just to damage and energy types.
Expect a lot of Save or Die situations. Expect initiative to REALLY matter.
Expect the PCs' action economy to really out balance the bad guys'.

SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |

It's the number of actions per turn you (or each side) gets.
For example, 4 PCs vs 1 monster usually has the 4 PCs attacking 4 times against the monster, then the monster attacking once against the 4 PCs.
But if one of the PCs is a druid, the PCs might get 5 attacks per round due to the animal companion. A high level sorcerer with Quicken Spell might get 2 spells off per round. A fighter with the Leadership feat essentially controls 2 characters. High level warrior-types get multiple attacks per round. A cleric might use planar ally to gain a celestial ally. The wizard might use simulacrum to create copies of himself. The bard might charm allies who will fight for her. A necromancer might have undead minions. And pretty much any spellcaster can summon allies with summon monster or summon nature's allies.

Galadryel |
It's the number of actions per turn you (or each side) gets.
For example, 4 PCs vs 1 monster usually has the 4 PCs attacking 4 times against the monster, then the monster attacking once against the 4 PCs.
But if one of the PCs is a druid, the PCs might get 5 attacks per round due to the animal companion. A high level sorcerer with Quicken Spell might get 2 spells off per round. A fighter with the Leadership feat essentially controls 2 characters. High level warrior-types get multiple attacks per round. A cleric might use planar ally to gain a celestial ally. The wizard might use simulacrum to create copies of himself. The bard might charm allies who will fight for her. A necromancer might have undead minions. And pretty much any spellcaster can summon allies with summon monster or summon nature's allies.
Hoo... so that's what it is. Thank for the info!

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You're in a bad situation when it comes to designing a high level adventure - you haven't done it before, and you have no idea of the party's makeup or capabilities. Usually my first advice for a newbie high level GM is to match the enemies against the party, but you can't do that. But here's what advice I can give:
Feel free and make the goal of the adventure seem impossible. 15th level PCs have capabilities and resources to deal with practically anything, so nothing should be off the table. Psychic lich in an airless dungeon? Go for it!
Several monsters is a better threat than one big one, but high level monsters can get complex. Make sure you examine the stat blocks for anything you use to see how they should fight. Don't be afraid to have reinforcements show up if the players are winning too easily...
...but also let them win a couple of seemingly tough fights pretty easily. Part of the fun of playing high levels is using your nifty toys to win what should have been a tough battle.
Make the adventure require the high-level things, as opposed to shutting them down. For example, it's better to require teleportation to even reach the site than it is to simply shut it down inside. Imagine a dungeon of completely isolated rooms, where each room tells you the location of 1 or 2 more and you have to use teleportation magic to travel between them as you discover them.
Hope some of this helps!

Galadryel |
Thanks for all the input, I'm less lost and have started to piece a little something for the first game this Sunday.
Could I ask how you would feel if your Gm added a fail zone on your DC checks?
example: trying to unlock a door at DC 30 then rolling under let's say 10 and implementing a, you broke it! and it's stuck close now.

voideternal |
Could I ask how you would feel if your Gm added a fail zone on your DC checks?
example: trying to unlock a door at DC 30 then rolling under let's say 10 and implementing a, you broke it! and it's stuck close now.
If you fail by 5 or more, something goes wrong. If the device is a trap, you trigger it. If you're attempting some sort of sabotage, you think the device is disabled, but it still works normally.
"Fail zones" already exist in the game. You can add more.
Also, a stuck door won't stop a level 15 party.

SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |

OK, sorry about that Galadryel.
Most high level parties will be well equipped to deal with swarms (most magic-users have some kind of area effect spell), but a lot of high level characters become super specialized and focus on their magic items, and therefore lack some of the mundane equipment lower characters use, such as alchemist fire.
Higher level parties are better equipped to both be more mobile (higher speed, fly, dimension door, haste, passwall, freedom of movement, spider climb), AND shut down their opponent's mobility (various wall spells, create pit, summoned monster mobs, stone shape, etc.).

Galadryel |
Il try to have a good size area with multiples zones (castle). Filled with enemies of decent level (14-15) and able to harass or retreat to group depending of the situation. Without forgetting about some puzzles and traps plus 1 or 2 higher cr encounter (17-18) and see how they react to it all.
That should be good for a first session... I hope.
I'll keep up to date on how it goes :)
(bow) thanks for all your help.

SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |

Another thing to consider is that high level combat takes longer than lower level combat. Iterative attacks, large lists of spells prepared or known to choose from, lot and lots of dice to roll and add up, multiple conditions and buffs to calculate and re-calculate.
So don't over plan too much. Depending on how long or short your session is, you might only have 1 or 2 combat encounters.

Galadryel |
As promised a follow up.
I fannaly know what they have as characters.
A human Paladin lv16 (main atk), Human Fighter lv15 (tank), a elf bard lv 15 (buff) and a elf wizard lv 14(non AoE caster!).
Thanks to all the help given here we had a great time :)
from my ''new group'' and myself thank you very much for all.

RegUS PatOff |
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For more ideas, take a look at the GM's Guide to Creating Challenging Encounters and the associated discussion thread. When you're looking at an average party level of 15, you need to think about having some of the encounters be around CR18-20 to provide a challenge.
Also, since you're thinking about high level encounters, remember that single boss-type monster fights rarely go well. There's a good thread, Combat advice for a DM - single foes, attacks of opportunity and combat mobility, on things to throw in to spice up and make a high-level encounter more challenging. Hope this helps!

SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |

You might want to pre-roll damage rolls since they're often 4d8+6d6+37 x4. And that can take a lot of time to add up. :-P
And seriously consider stealing--I mean borrowing--the Legendary Actions rule from 5th Edition, and possibly even Legendary Saves (3 times per day, when you fail a saving throw, you can choose to succeed at it instead), and Lair Actions (special environmental effects that gets its own action at initiative count 20, losing on ties, like sprays of lava, ghostly shades, entangling vines, falling rocks, earthquakes, poisonous clouds, etc., thematically tied to the BBEG).