Despite what some people have been arguing in this and other threads, the rules for this feat are pretty clear. You can use both a two-handed weapon and your shield. There are no other restrictions added on (other than the shield check penalty being applied to attacks) and there is nothing saying that anything else changes, so you use both the weapon and shield normally.
That is, you can still gain the bonuses from the shield, bash with it normally, and get all of the two-handed benefits for your weapon. Heck, with the right weapon choice, you could even use a double-weapon along with your shield!
|
That is, you can still gain the bonuses from the shield, bash with it normally, and get all of the two-handed benefits for your weapon. Heck, with the right weapon choice, you could even use a double-weapon along with your shield!
I agree with all of that... except the possible implication that you can use TWF to get an extra shield (or 2H weapon) attack. That isn't "normal" usage and thus there are no rules for how it would work (e.g. what is the TWF penalty for a two-handed weapon?).
You could use iterative attacks from a high BAB to swap between shield bashes and 2H weapon attacks, but you couldn't do your full iterative attacks with the 2H weapon plus one extra (from TWF) with the shield.
A monk's spade is a polearm double weapon and thus qualifies under this feat. What exactly is preventing the combo from working?
Ah, so you're saying you can't get an attack with a one-handed weapon and a two-handed weapon in the same round, even while dual-wielding?
The whole "handedness" FAQ thing?
God I hate unwritten rules.
The feat is clear, you may use BOTH the shield AND the weapon. There are no real provisos added that limit using both--AT ALL. Ergo, you can dual-wield both.
Ah, so you're saying you can't get an attack with a one-handed weapon and a two-handed weapon in the same round, even while dual-wielding?
The whole "handedness" FAQ thing?
God I hate unwritten rules.
The feat is clear, you may use BOTH the shield AND the weapon. There are no real provisos added that limit using both--AT ALL. Ergo, you can dual-wield both.
I have a hunch that arguments like this will end up getting the feat banned in PFS...
Actually I've found that whenever something comes out and I find it awesome (cause it's powerful and good for martials) it ends up getting banned in PFS...
Yeah, PFS really is terrible about that sort of behavior.
|
|
Ah, so you're saying you can't get an attack with a one-handed weapon and a two-handed weapon in the same round, even while dual-wielding?
Actually... you can EXCEPT for dual-wielding.
A character with BAB +11/+6/+1 could make a shield bash attack at +11 to bull rush an opponent back (with the appropriate feats) and then polearm reach attacks at +6 and +1.
However, they could NOT use TWF with the shield and polearm to get a fourth attack (either 3 shield & 1 polearm or 3 polearm & 1 shield). Setting aside the lack of three hands... there are no TWF penalties listed for two-handed weapons. Because the situation is assumed to be impossible for characters with only two arms. So, if you allow this then you have to make up new penalties... or treat the two-handed weapon as if it were one-handed, at which point it should also lose 1.5x strength.
Basically, there are no rules for TWF with a two-handed weapon & one-handed weapon. There is no 'normal' situation to base such an ability on. It would be a new thing which would need additional rules to explain how it works. The feat does not contain any such rules.... ergo, no TWF with shield and polearm/spear.
|
|
ergo, no TWF with shield and polearm/spear.Unless the polearm or spear is a double weapon, and then you could TWF with Shield + one end of the double weapon, because you would be wielding it as a one handed or light weapon.
That's... odd, but yes it probably works.
The only uncertainty is that while a double weapon is treated as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon for TWF penalties, there is no classification of one being the 'light weapon' side. Thus, it isn't clear whether heavy shield plus one half of a double weapon would be two one-handed weapons or a one-handed weapon (shield) and a light weapon for TWF penalties. Light shields are light weapons and thus don't run into this issue. I'd probably treat 'one side of a double weapon' as a one-handed weapon, but that's purely a personal ruling for a situation that the rules do not cover.
So I could wield a monk spade (attacking with both ends) while using my sheild to protect me? Alternatively, I could attack with one end of my monk spade as well as my shield?
If that's what's being said, then I agree; that lines up with my own thinking.
|
That's one interpretation.
Devil's Advocate, it could be argued that a double weapon is still a two-handed weapon, and the exception allowing TWF only applies to the weapon itself.
Even still, you would be able to attack with both ends of the monk spade/weighted spear and keep the shield bonus to AC.
If it's a two handed weapon that takes two hands to use...no, you couldn't use a double weapon with a shield.
If it's a one handed weapon that can be used as a double weapon...yes, you could.
But otherwise...most dual weapons cannot be used effectively in one hand. They are always used in two hands, using one or both ends as desired.
Look on the weapon table. If they are under one handed weapons, you're fine.
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If it's a two handed weapon that takes two hands to use...no, you couldn't use a double weapon with a shield.
If it's a one handed weapon that can be used as a double weapon...yes, you could.
But otherwise...most dual weapons cannot be used effectively in one hand. They are always used in two hands, using one or both ends as desired.
Look on the weapon table. If they are under one handed weapons, you're fine.
==Aelryinth
Yes, you seem to be basing your interpretation off the general rule, but you seem to be failing to account for the exceptions provided by the Shield Brace feat.
|
Developer
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is not an official answer, and not a faq.
You can use armor spikes and a two-handed sword at the same time, in that armor spikes just sit on your armor and a two-handed sword can be held in two hands. You can also have a spiked gauntlet on at the same time. But the armor spike rules tell us you can't attack with both armor spikes and the two-handed sword, because you are using both hands for the sword.
The armor spikes don't require a hand to use, but the game (though the faq) still limits you to making attacks with as many hands worth of weapons as you have hands. You can use armor spikes and a spiked gauntlet to attack and, though still holding your two-handed weapon, you can't make a two-handed attack that turn.
Unless a rule specifies it allows you to bypass that limitation, you should assume it doesn't. So you can use a shield with Shield Brace while using a two-handed weapon, but that doesn't mean you can attack with the shield while attacking with the two-handed weapon, for the same reason that the fact that armor spikes say you can make a regular attack or off-hand attack (a specific rule) doesn't allow you to do so while using a two-handed weapon (a general rule).
That faq is part of the rules we consider when writing new material, Shield Brace included.
Thank you for your unofficial interpretation, Mr. Stevens. If it is as you say though, how come Shield Brace doesn't specify that you still can't attack with both?
As written, it clearly states that you can "use both" with no caveats whatsoever on the manner of use.
Also, devs have made it clear in the past that FAQs only pertain to themselves and that one should not project their meaning onto other areas of the rules. Is that not exactly what you are doing here? This isn't about spiked gauntlets, two-handed weapons, and armor spikes. This is about Shield Brace.
|
|
So I could wield a monk spade (attacking with both ends) while using my sheild to protect me? Alternatively, I could attack with one end of my monk spade as well as my shield?
If that's what's being said, then I agree; that lines up with my own thinking.
Theoretical configurations with Shield Brace;
Iterative attacks from high BAB split between shield and both (or one) sides of double weapon - Definitely
Iterative attacks from high BAB split between shield and 2H spear/polearm - Definitely
TWF with both sides of double weapon & shield for protection - Definitely
TWF with shield & one side of double weapon - Possibly
TWF with shield & both sides of double weapon - Definitely not
TWF with shield & 2H spear/polearm - Definitely not
Without Shield Brace, or some similar ability, all of the above would be 'Definitely not'.
Thank you for your unofficial interpretation, Mr. Stevens. If it is as you say though, how come Shield Brace doesn't specify that you still can't attack with both?
As written, it clearly states that you can "use both" with no caveats whatsoever on the manner of use.
Also, devs have made it clear in the past that FAQs only pertain to themselves and that one should not project their meaning onto other areas of the rules. Is that not exactly what you are doing here? This isn't about spiked gauntlets, two-handed weapons, and armor spikes. This is about Shield Brace.
I believe it's important to note that what we're saying is that you can use both normally. Since we mean to use them normally, it doesn't circumvent the normality that is the Armor Spikes FAQ, which is "No 1.5x Strength Main Hand + 0.5x Strength Off Hand."
I'll also chip in about the whole "Double Weapon usable One-Handed" thing:
You can choose to wield one end of a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
It's quite clear the intent is that a Double Weapon defaults to being used and treated as a two-handed weapon when not being used as a Double Weapon. The only weapon that I noticed which may not function this way is the Taiaha, and even that's sketchy, because it's mentioned in the one-handed weapon list, but the Double weapon property says it's used two-handed when not using as a Double weapon.
Sadly, Shield Brace does not say "normally" anywhere in its text.
It says "You can use a two-handed weapon sized appropriately for you from the polearm or spears weapon group while also using a light, heavy, or tower shield with which you are proficient. The shield’s armor check penalty (if any) applies to attacks made with the weapon."
Nowhere does it specify the manner of use. As written it opens up an exception to the "normal" rules for both traditional shield use with a two-handed weapon, and using the shield as a weapon alongside a two-handed weapon.
I understand that, that may not be the intent, I'm just saying that, that particular interpretation of intent isn't reflected anywhere in the feat.
|
|
Ravingdork, if you are arguing for 'TWF with shield & 2H spear/polearm' or 'TWF with shield & double weapon' then you need to be able to answer the question; 'What are the TWF penalties for using a two-handed or double weapon?'
We know the TWF penalties for light and one-handed weapons... but not two-handed or double weapons. Without those, you're arguing for a scenario that there are no rules for.
This is not an official answer, and not a faq.
You can use armor spikes and a two-handed sword at the same time, in that armor spikes just sit on your armor and a two-handed sword can be held in two hands. You can also have a spiked gauntlet on at the same time. But the armor spike rules tell us you can't attack with both armor spikes and the two-handed sword, because you are using both hands for the sword.
The armor spikes don't require a hand to use, but the game (though the faq) still limits you to making attacks with as many hands worth of weapons as you have hands. You can use armor spikes and a spiked gauntlet to attack and, though still holding your two-handed weapon, you can't make a two-handed attack that turn.
Unless a rule specifies it allows you to bypass that limitation, you should assume it doesn't. So you can use a shield with Shield Brace while using a two-handed weapon, but that doesn't mean you can attack with the shield while attacking with the two-handed weapon, for the same reason that the fact that armor spikes say you can make a regular attack or off-hand attack (a specific rule) doesn't allow you to do so while using a two-handed weapon (a general rule).
That faq is part of the rules we consider when writing new material, Shield Brace included.
That is pretty much the way that I was thinking. Thank you.
Correct, Ravingdork; this means that it's wielded as if you could use both at the same time, whereas without the feat, you cannot.
There's nothing in the feat that says the two-handed weapon is wielded in one hand, or is treated as a one-handed weapon, or that it overturns the unwritten rule. So what are we left with? The general rules. You know, the ones we fall to when the specifics aren't mentioned anywhere.
The general rules are that if a weapon is a two-handed weapon, it deals 1.5x Strength modifier, and it cannot be used with TWF, as it breaks the unwritten rule. (At this point, the unwritten rule might as well be a written rule.)
|
|
At this point, the unwritten rule might as well be a written rule.
So far as I'm concerned, it always was.
Armor spikes always said they could be used as an off-hand attack. That should have been sufficient for people to realize you couldn't use them if you didn't have an off-hand attack available because both your hands were in use.
Shield bashes always said the type of weapon they should be treated as for TWF penalties. That should have been sufficient for people to realize you couldn't use them if you were already using both hands for other things.
Et cetera. It is only an 'unwritten rule' in the sense that they didn't think to write, 'you cannot use more hands than you have'. Everything else was there all along.
|
Developer
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sadly, Shield Brace does not say "normally" anywhere in its text.
Okay, I'll take a step down into the pedantic death spiral these types of debates usually turn into.
You can use a two-handed weapon and a shield with Shield Brace.
However, according to all the shields descriptions in the Core Rulebook, when shield bashing "Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon."
Does Shield Bash allow me to use a martial bludgeoning weapon with my two-handed weapon? No, only a shield. If a use a shield to bash, it becomes a martial bludgeoning weapon. I am now not using it as a shield, so the ability to use it with a two-handed weapon no longer applies, I am using it "as a weapon" (as written later in the shield bash description), not as a shield.
Does parsing the rules that thinly make sense? No, not really. But that's the direction this kind of argument goes.
Sadly, Shield Brace does not say "normally" anywhere in its text.Okay, I'll take a step down into the pedantic death spiral these types of debates usually turn into.
LOL.
Ravingdork, if you are arguing for 'TWF with shield & 2H spear/polearm' or 'TWF with shield & double weapon' then you need to be able to answer the question; 'What are the TWF penalties for using a two-handed or double weapon?'
We know the TWF penalties for light and one-handed weapons... but not two-handed or double weapons. Without those, you're arguing for a scenario that there are no rules for.
lol. You got me there.
Sadly, Shield Brace does not say "normally" anywhere in its text.Okay, I'll take a step down into the pedantic death spiral these types of debates usually turn into.
You can use a two-handed weapon and a shield with Shield Brace.
However, according to all the shields descriptions in the Core Rulebook, when shield bashing "Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon."
Does Shield Bash allow me to use a martial bludgeoning weapon with my two-handed weapon? No, only a shield. If a use a shield to bash, it becomes a martial bludgeoning weapon. I am now not using it as a shield, so the ability to use it with a two-handed weapon no longer applies, I am using it "as a weapon" (as written later in the shield bash description), not as a shield.
Does parsing the rules that thinly make sense? No, not really. But that's the direction this kind of argument goes.
Seems a bit tortured to me, but I see your point.
Sadly, Shield Brace does not say "normally" anywhere in its text.Okay, I'll take a step down into the pedantic death spiral these types of debates usually turn into.
You can use a two-handed weapon and a shield with Shield Brace.
However, according to all the shields descriptions in the Core Rulebook, when shield bashing "Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon."
Does Shield Bash allow me to use a martial bludgeoning weapon with my two-handed weapon? No, only a shield. If a use a shield to bash, it becomes a martial bludgeoning weapon. I am now not using it as a shield, so the ability to use it with a two-handed weapon no longer applies, I am using it "as a weapon" (as written later in the shield bash description), not as a shield.
Does parsing the rules that thinly make sense? No, not really. But that's the direction this kind of argument goes.
It doesn't make sense, since a feat still allows you to retain its use as a shield while still using it as a weapon. The argument fails because a shield is both a defensive tool and an offensive tool, at the same time.
Thankfully, it doesn't have to, since the unwritten rule keeps the concept of TWFing with them in check. Besides, that's a lot of feats a Fighter has to invest in if he wants to keep both his offense and defense relevant...
Sadly, Shield Brace does not say "normally" anywhere in its text.Okay, I'll take a step down into the pedantic death spiral these types of debates usually turn into.
You can use a two-handed weapon and a shield with Shield Brace.
However, according to all the shields descriptions in the Core Rulebook, when shield bashing "Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon."
Does Shield Bash allow me to use a martial bludgeoning weapon with my two-handed weapon? No, only a shield. If a use a shield to bash, it becomes a martial bludgeoning weapon. I am now not using it as a shield, so the ability to use it with a two-handed weapon no longer applies, I am using it "as a weapon" (as written later in the shield bash description), not as a shield.
Does parsing the rules that thinly make sense? No, not really. But that's the direction this kind of argument goes.
Thank you for spelling it out so clearly. Was this another feat you authored? If so, i have to admit i am quickly becoming a fan of your work :)
Just to keep the drag down going though, Shield Brace wouldn't interfere with the normal functions of a weapon besides adding the shield's ACP to attack rolls... meaning a double weapon such as a monk's spade could be used as a double weapon with shield brace so long as no new attacks are added to the routine from the shield?
You'd be using the Double Weapon as a One-handed and Light Weapon when you TWF with it, not as a Two-handed Weapon, so it wouldn't function.
The intent behind the feat, according to Owen, is you use the subjects as they're intended to be used, and nothing more. If you're using a Two-handed weapon, you can't use it as a Double weapon and expect to maintain usage of the feat, if you're using a Shield, you can't use it to attack and expect to maintain usage of the feat.
This is a lot like the current Slashing Grace, except all of the limiting text that you see in Slashing Grace, isn't currently there for Shield Brace.
Darksol, so you're saying that because the feat specifically references two-handed weapons, and because when you are dual-wielding you are treated as having a one-handed weapon and a light weapon, not a two-handed weapon, that you cannot dual-wield a double weapon in conjunction with this feat?
If that's what you're saying, than I don't personally believe in that interpretation for a moment.
Darksol, so you're saying that because the feat specifically references two-handed weapons, and because when you are dual-wielding you are treated as having a one-handed weapon and a light weapon, not a two-handed weapon, that you cannot dual-wield a double weapon in conjunction with this feat?
If that's what you're saying, than I don't personally believe in that interpretation for a moment.
Don't believe it if you want. I don't believe the factor that you cannot attack with the Shield while using a two-handed weapon, but according to Owen, you can't do that with this feat, because attacking with the Shield makes it something that isn't a Shield (a Martial Bludgeoning Weapon).
The same concept applies here. You can't attack with a Two-handed Weapon with the Double property as a Double weapon, because attacking with the Two-handed Weapon as a Double weapon makes it something that isn't a Two-handed Weapon (a One-handed and Light Weapon).
If it makes you feel any better, I don't agree with it either. I'm just appropriating what Owen's interpretation is in relation to the question posed. That being said, you still can't TWF with a Two-Handed Weapon and a Shield because of the unwritten rule, and as you've already demonstrated, trying to TWF with a Double Weapon while using a Shield is quite questionable. I find it better to err on the side of "It's not happening." Even if it is plausible (though by Owen's argument, it shouldn't be), I have no idea why you would do that, considering how extremely feat intensive you become for doing so.
Let's take a typical Human Fighter, shall we?
1. Power Attack, Shield Focus, Shield Brace
2. Two-Weapon Fighting
3. Weapon Focus
4. Weapon Specialization
5. Shield Specialization
6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7. Double Slice
8. Greater Weapon Focus
9. Greater Shield Focus
10. Two-Weapon Rend
11. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
12. Greater Weapon Specialization
13. Greater Shield Specialization
14. Penetrating Strike
15. Hammer the Gap
16. Greater Penetrating Strike
17-20. Anything
That is an extreme amount of feats that you take to optimize being able to wield both a Double Weapon and a Shield at the same time. The good news is, it comes online by 2nd level, and only gets better. The bad news is, you don't really spend your feats on anything else except that until 17th level.