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I have a mesh of the Pathfinder kingdom building rules and the old D&D splat Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, as I am fond of parts of each but the whole of neither.
I'd like to run my own version of "Kingmaker," set in the same location of Golarion but with no other event correlations; the spot's already been made for this, I might as well take it, even if I don't want to run the AP.
Characters will start in the mid-level range, but wealth and a couple of other factors will be tightly controlled in the beginning; for example, if we start at 11, each PC will be required to have a fluid pool of at least 20k to be used to build your stronghold and fund your empire.
The game will require a lot of player cooperation, and a lot of OOC conversations; likewise, one or more players will have to do a bit of bookkeeping, but there will be combat (possible mass, depending on how it's taken) and intrigue and all of the fun stuff as well.
I'll be several days or longer getting a doc up to explain the meshing of systems, so this is strictly to see if I should bother at all; no commitments, concepts, or obligations at this point.
Do feel free to ask any general questions you may have, but keep in mind the mechanics (and creation requirements) will be up in time.
I'm potentially interested. Will each player have their own nation? Will we be able to affect larger events in the world? Will days/weeks be abstracted for convenience?
I'm potentially interested. Will each player have their own nation? Will we be able to affect larger events in the world? Will days/weeks be abstracted for convenience?
1) That depends on the number of interested parties. I have no qualms with two groups of three each having their own areas, but if there are only a handful of people, then at least initially everyone will be in the same boat, if for no other reason than a single level 11 couldn't afford much in the way of a stronghold without sacrificing more than a level's worth of wealth.
2) Yes, absolutely, and that is part of my hopes for it. I do intend to run it as a moderate sandbox, so if the party doesn't want to go to war, I won't force it on them constantly. However, I've always wanted to play with the mass combat rules, so if a tyrant empire to rival ancient Taldor is birthed, I'd be more than happy to extend it into a game of Pathfinder Risk.
3) Doubly absolutely. I didn't use logistics lightly in the title, and if we were to play it round-by-round, I'd venture to say that half of the involved players would be senile by the time we'd accomplish anything.
I'm potentially interested. Will each player have their own nation? Will we be able to affect larger events in the world? Will days/weeks be abstracted for convenience?1) That depends on the number of interested parties. I have no qualms with two groups of three each having their own areas, but if there are only a handful of people, then at least initially everyone will be in the same boat, if for no other reason than a single level 11 couldn't afford much in the way of a stronghold without sacrificing more than a level's worth of wealth.
To me, at least, it seems like the idea is to build an empire rather than building one super-strong character. So I'd definitely be taking an approach where I'd invest a huge swathe of my resources.
Would you allow any 3pp? Path of War could be huge for something like this.
Will we be allowed to take Leadership?
Maybe....
Hopefully!
To me, at least, it seems like the idea is to build an empire rather than building one super-strong character. So I'd definitely be taking an approach where I'd invest a huge swathe of my resources.
Would you allow any 3pp? Path of War could be huge for something like this.
Will we be allowed to take Leadership?
That is indeed the intention, but I still wouldn't want a level 11 to only have 4th or 5th level wealth; that would hinder a great many classes when the individual encounters occur.
I've not yet set any limitations on material, and since it's largely homebrew, I'd be open to 3PP products; admittedly, I'd need to familiarize myself with many of them, but as the beginning of the campaign will be largely mechanicscombat-light, I feel like I'll have ample time to balance an encounter around classes I'm not super knowledgeable about.
Leadership is fine; there is also a Landlord feat that I'll be forcing on everyone from the splat, which I'll detail further in the actual recruitment, but simply, it provides extra income specifically for kingdom purposes, representative of some generous donor giving you money for whatever reason.
Sounds like a really interesting game. Stronghold Builder's Guide was my favourite 3rd ed book! I kept trying to convince GMs to let me take landlord.
Would really like to see your document.
That said, I'm currently adapting to a new schedule that has left me with very little head-space, so I probably shouldn't sign up for another game no matter how much I want to.
:(
Uhm... dotted... because I always liked Birthright :)
Definitely intrigued...
Dotted for later.
Sounds like a really interesting game. Stronghold Builder's Guide was my favourite 3rd ed book! I kept trying to convince GMs to let me take landlord.
Would really like to see your document.
That said, I'm currently adapting to a new schedule that has left me with very little head-space, so I probably shouldn't sign up for another game no matter how much I want to.:(
I'll be at least a week getting the document up properly; I've never written it for the general public, and there are a lot of instances of me referencing things I know without proper direction.
So, you'll have time to change your mind! Keep an eye out next week or so for the actual Recruitment thread, and if your schedule is more free by then, stop on by!
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Glad to see this level of interest. I'm not going to take this down any time soon, for the reason above. Likewise, for all interested parties, do bear in mind that this will require at least one of you to take on some extra bookkeeping typically not seen in a "traditional" campaign. It's best if everyone splits the load, but it's just as likely that one person (which would be me; I love this sort of thing) will want to shoulder a larger portion of it simply because they enjoy it.
sounds fun I Can't wait to see the outline rules
This does sound interesting.
Dot for birthright mention.
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I'd like to add that there may be times when the players will need to pick up and run an encounter as NPCs. Let me give an example.
Your country is still forming, but you want to send a trade ship over water to some Tian Xia country. However, none of the PCs have the time to leave their land for the months-long journey. I'll roll random events off screen to see if the ship has any problems. Simple things like weather or a single pirate vessel, I'll leave to the die, but if it should come up that an entire fleet of privateers, or a giant water monster attacks, then I think everyone would rather have some control over what happens. In that instance, I'll generate appropriate officer NPCs, and you as players can dictate their actions for the encounter. Random fate shouldn't decide to ruin your 10s of thousands of GP investment. Things like this will obviously diminish as you gain more resources, and can afford to send an entire fleet.
I'm tentatively interested. I'd actually be full on interested if the setting were changed. I'm currently playing in a Kingmaker game but I am a huge fan of Birthright as well as the Kingdom building rules.
It could change, depending on what the accepted players want. I picked the Stolen Lands simply because it's already there and open; setting it most other places requires editing the region.
If, after the recruitment goes out, players want to forge out part of the Isle of Kortos, or Katapesh, or wherever, I'd be willing to move some stuff around.
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Land of the Linnorm Kings has at least three un-ruled regions if memory serves. Plus we'd be able to slay a Linnorm!
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Land of the Linnorm Kings has at least three un-ruled regions if memory serves. Plus we'd be able to slay a Linnorm!
That's actually a great idea, and provides a meaningful encounter other than some random beastie early on.
Obviously I'd be in too, but I want to restate that I think it'd be cool if each character be given control over their own regions/kingdoms at some point.
I do recall that the minimum level to fight a Linnorm is 15 and the fight needs to be done alone.
I do recall that the minimum level to fight a Linnorm is 15 and the fight needs to be done alone.
...if you wish to rule over the Ulfen. If you initially set up a keep, operate trade, maybe help defend against Jadwiga, they'll probably leave well enough alone. At least, until you want to conquer/rule them, in which case, solo linnorm becomes a necessity.
I see what you mean would have to see it running in game.
I can run my own NPC / PC events, done it many times.
If we are going the PC + Realm + NPCS root, my want to hive our a kind of flat Leadership meta feat for all PCs, so they have an even playing field
Fix the numbers sort of thing so that Low Cha or Poor PCs are not discriminated penalized for have a cool idea for a PC but not going power monkey root.
This sounds ... interesting. Definitely interested, even if (especially as?) I have only the vaguest sense of the kingdom rules, and am particularly interested in learning more.
This sounds ... interesting. Definitely interested, even if (especially as?) I have only the vaguest sense of the kingdom rules, and am particularly interested in learning more.
That was basically the reason for my interest as well!
(...)If we are going the PC + Realm + NPCS root, my want to hive our a kind of flat Leadership meta feat for all PCs, so they have an even playing field (...)
There is a metric by which your "subjects" listen to you and believe in you; it's one of the few parts of Paizo's kingdom rules I like. Leadership, the feat, is unnecessary, unless you wanted a particularly powerful cohort; when we get that far, I'll deal with anyone who'd want such but has a poor Cha on a case-by-case basis. Example being a renowned military commander; she could be the most ugly, gruff, and rude person on the planet (Cha <5), but she would still have the respect of her troops and officers.
I'm interested thought would I need to speak? And what medium will we be using to play the game?
It'll be a PbP here on the boards. Verbal communication is unnecessary, but not frowned upon; with all of the stuff to track, if it so happens that all players have a day a week/two where our schedules line up and we can use some voice medium to hash things out at a far greater pace than by post, that'd be fine with me, but it's neither compulsory nor expected.
Well, I've never liked the kingdom building rules that Paizo published, so I'd definitely be interested in an alternative.
What are the possibilities for establishing a dynasty? arranging marriages, having children, etc. should be an important part of kingdom building, but seems to be sadly neglected.
Well, I've never liked the kingdom building rules that Paizo published, so I'd definitely be interested in an alternative.
What are the possibilities for establishing a dynasty? arranging marriages, having children, etc. should be an important part of kingdom building, but seems to be sadly neglected.
Depends on how the players take it; it'll be mostly sandbox, and at least at the start, the focus will be on establishing your place from next-to-nothing.
Once it's settled, to be a bit blunt, I don't care what everyone does, and if all want to fast-forward to the next generation or something, we can do that. I'd rather enjoy determining breeding potential, too, if that's where it goes.
Breeding, unfortunately ... tends towards the norm. Exceptional individuals do not, as an unfortunate rule, have exceptional offspring. Might be interesting in regards to how to set up a 'perfect' rulership ...
This sounds very interesting.
As of right now, I have the image of a Chelish noble (maybe Hellknight, not sure), funded Christopher Columbus-style to forge a new colony in the northern land for Cheliax.
That's where his "Landlord" money could come from, taxes on the people itself and backing from Cheliax.
Obviously very law-focused, but perhaps without all of the specific devilry.
Edit: an Asmodean Advocate playing the devil's court game would actually be quite fantastic. Evokes a certain image of a leader who is willing to bend his words to get what he wants, if necessary.
Edit 2: although, a Burned Flames oracle/Signifer of the Order of the Nail is certainly a wonderful option as well. Using "holy fire" to destroy the uncivilized rabble and carve out a new safe haven from the wilderness.
Hmm...I'll have to think about this...
Whatever the case, count me interested!
Also very interested! I love the kingdom building rules, and the opportunity to play with such on a potentially large scale in Golarion is fracking awesome to me!
Won't worry about a character concept just yet, but I have several in mind, depending.
Breeding, unfortunately ... tends towards the norm. Exceptional individuals do not, as an unfortunate rule, have exceptional offspring. Might be interesting in regards to how to set up a 'perfect' rulership ...
With a variety of mid-to-high level spells, there's absolute potential for magical genetic manipulation of a fetus. I've never done anything like that, nor heard of it being done (nor even looked to see if others have suggested stuff for it), but if that's the direction taken, I'm more than willing to go there. It makes for a neat thought experiment and ethical debate, in any case.
I believe I have settled on an interesting concept for this game:
An Elf looking to reclaim the wilds of Golarion.
Of another particular note (mostly for my benefit, so I remember to include it in the actual recruitment); alignment will be far more philosophical than is traditional. By the most strict definition, the supreme majority of people fall as true neutral, with leanings to one or another axis. If I can find an old chart again, I'll post it, as it provided a better example of an alignment spectrum than most D20 systems, PF included.
There will be no alignment restrictions on classes; some abilities may need altered, but a lot of 3PP materials (or 3.5 stuff) has already been modified accordingly, and I of course reserve the right to change bits of those as well, as I see fit. No spell will require an alignment to cast, no deity will restrict people to only casting Cure. Spontaneous/energy channeling will be as normal, but there is no reason a Cleric of Sarenrae wouldn't be able to cast Inflict if she wanted to do so. Likewise, non-divine class worshippers do not have to conform to any axis of their deities alignment; a deluded madman who murders people by anyone else's eyes could still believe himself doing divine good.
Edit: This isn't to say I'm not open to suggestions. For all but the alignment, which my group at home has been using for several years, this is essentially my alpha playtest. If I say or post something that seems obviously broken or disagreeable, don't hesitate to let me know, and I'll either justify my choice to you or reconsider my design.
Would this alignment restriction affect domains/blessings? or would all alignment domains and blessings simply be eliminated? What about summoned creatures with a planar alignment?
Just curious because I am considering a Warpriest of Abadar; devoted to bringing civilization to the wilderness, even at the point of a sword. The Lawful blessing would seem appropriate, off the top of my head.
It would not; I will word it better (and not type from mobile) in the proper recruitment, but what I meant was you could play a LN Paladin, or a Chaotic Monk, etc.
Divine casters would still need to be within one step of their deity, as per normal. However, if you were to worship Torag, or Sarenrae, or any good deity as a Cleric, I wouldn't prohibit you from casting Inflict simply because it has the Evil descriptor; you would still have to channel positive energy, and spontaneously cast Cure.
Dot for interest.
This sounds interesting. Would we be able to create unique communities? Like a tree house community run by eleven rangers, or Underground/mountain community?
Will we start in untamed wilderness, or an area with already established military and political alliances?
1) Yes. Both get discounts to their creation because they're made of the materials locally plentiful, too!
2) There is no true area of untamed wilderness, without going to Arcadia or Casmaron or one of the other little-detailed continents. Whether we start in the Stolen Lands of Kingmaker, unclaimed territory in the Land of the Linnorm Kings, or the vast desert spaces of Garund, there are other people around that will have opinions on your presence. This won't be a small-scale wilderness fort, you will be building an empire from the start, and it's up to the party to decide how to deal with other claimants to the land and their budding sovereignty.
Let me know when you put up a recruitment thread proper and I'll try and fit my character concept to the recruitment hook.
Is this a colony that will be backed by some power, and if so, which one? or are we going to start as independent and try to recruit local peasants to colonise our land?
Also interested in this... Strongholds builder manual is best 3.5 book.
keeping an eye on this.
Just curious how this is going. No rush and not impatient, more like excited to see where this goes, and hopeful I'm able to play :)
It's going. I have an outline, and about a quarter typed. It's difficult for me to write it as though a reader is completely ignorant of any of the system (which I should do; experience levels vary), and I keep finding myself rewriting sections to improve their readability.
But once all of that is finished, I still have to construct the beginning campaign outline, highlight any timelime/lore variances, and set out recruitment requirements.
Liberal estimate? Two weeks. Engineer's estimate? A month and a half. Likely somewhere in the middle
Timeline/Lore variances?
Depending on where I set this, I may have to alter the surroundings or major Golarion events to make it fit. I'm too involved in constructing the rules document to worry about the "campaign" part of the campaign, but I have a few ideas that'll take some looking into once I finish the mechanics.
I missed a couple of questions; I apologize, and promise it wasn't intentional.
@WreckTall again - Regarding the city of glass, yes, the SBG has specific rules for crafting glass strongholds, including magical reinforcement. There are also reductions in price based on the payer's ability to self-cast.
@Gavmania - Likely not; if any one specific organization backs you, it will be something more akin to the Aspis Consortium, rather than a direct governmental influence.
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Meet your neighbor, The City-State of Corrinhold.
The document is old, and I did little but change a few typos I caught as I re-read it. There are some locational discrepancies, and a checklist for personal use at the bottom, but it's a good example of the degree to which I'd expect the PCs to take their particular settlement.
This is definitely going to be set on Golarion, right? Asking so I can sort of work up a background and develop a solid PC concept now so I have a bit of a head start for the actual recruitment.