So a PFS agent walks into a prison with an elixir of love...

[steelhead]

The background:
For a scenario this weekend I was debating buying a medlance from a previous scenario boon to try and make a debuff warpriest. I thought the medlance would allow me to buy debuff potions and I could use the technological medlance to deliver them as a standard action in combat.

The problem:
After discussing it with some folks, I realized it wouldn't work because when you buy debuff potions in PFS you have to buy them at the lowest level which means the save DC will be really low - resulting in my enemies making them more often than not. So I had ruled out the medlance, then my GM said we needed to make a prison break and we were given some items to help. One of those items was an elixir of love. Needless to say, the temptation to jab one of the guards with a medlance filled with EoL to have him fall in love with one of our party members was too hard to pass. I know, I know, you should never go into a scenario and impulse buy, but the prison break was very successful. However, I now have a medlance that is arguably relatively useful at best, and will probably be useless as I go up in level and our enemies get better saves.

The fix?
So I humbly submit to all of your experience, how do I make the medlance more immediately useful, and what about the long term? What are the best debuff spells for potions? Or which scenarios can I play that have good pharmaceuticals as buffs? Please put the latter as spoilers.

[Moskau]

I bought the medlance not as a debuff, but instead as an "oh, crap. It just X" item. Currently, I keep it stocked with Elixir of Spirit Sight to deal with invisibility and incorporeal without ruining my action economy via a spring-loaded wrist sheath. I've actually used this for 3 scenarios in a row.

[Disk Elemental]

Medlance is already pretty useful. Being able to give an unconscious person a potion as standard which doesn't provoke is great. My Faerie
Dragon familiar carries around a medlance with a potion of Cure Serious Wounds in it.

[Azothath]

okay... #1 problem with potions as an offensive item is right IN the PRD potion description.

Potions: PRD wrote:

Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).

thus an imbiber (by choice or not(via Poisoner's Gloves)) can choose not to be affected or to end the effect.

An unconscious target doesn't get that choice and the spell effect goes off.

[steelhead]

Stephen Ross wrote:

okay... #1 problem with potions as an offensive item is right IN the PRD potion description.

Potions: PRD wrote:

Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).

thus an imbiber (by choice or not(via Poisoner's Gloves)) can choose not to be affected or to end the effect.

Yes, but the drinker of the potion is the target (see my bold text above). If the caster of a spell targets themselves with a doom, well that just isn't very smart because they are now the target of their own offensive spell. The target's "control" changes depending on whether the spell is offensive or defensive. Just like an imbiber of poison cannot choose to be affected or not, the target of an offensive spell cannot make any choices about the spell.

[Azothath]

controlling the effect means choosing to end it.

The trick about making choices addresses Energy Resistance etc, is it fire, electricity... One of the home rules I use is that if you are a caster and the spell is on your list you can change the specifics at the time of casting (why else be a arcane caster with spellcraft?).

For PFS, the potions just aren't gonna work. GMs will make the simple decision.

Some potion descriptions are written contrary to that general rule... and in those cases it will work. Those are specific whammy potions, like cursed items.

I know, this rule shot down my Gaseous Form potion in Poisoner's Gloves idea... (sheds a tear a little bit)...

[steelhead]

@Randy Saxon: That is a really good use, except I'll need to buy Adventure Path #39: The City of Seven Spears to use it legally in PFS. Just a see invisibility would help a little with action economy. I have seen a few combined potions on PFS boons, and need to look into those, as they are often "Oh crap. It just Xed"-items. Disk Elemental's idea is good, but perhaps not for a warpriest, who can already channel to stabilize allies (often being able to move just enough out of combat so he doesn't provoke). It might be useful to loan the medlance out to other characters at higher levels if I use it for that.

[Mimo Tomblebur]

So Stephen, I'm trying to understand your position, so let me start with a specific example: a potion of cause moderate wounds. This is an instantaneous spell with no save. If someone were to imbibe it, the potion description says they become the target and the caster. Are you saying that the spell effect would not do damage to the person unless they wanted it to?

If so, I think that runs counter the statement that the imbiber becomes the target. If you drink a potion of haste you cannot decide to delay the start of the spell duration until you want it to start, the spell goes off immediately; you are not the caster in the sense of selecting the target or deciding when it is activated.

[kinevon]

Eric Ives wrote:

So Stephen, I'm trying to understand your position, so let me start with a specific example: a potion of cause moderate wounds. This is an instantaneous spell with no save. If someone were to imbibe it, the potion description says they become the target and the caster. Are you saying that the spell effect would not do damage to the person unless they wanted it to?

If so, I think that runs counter the statement that the imbiber becomes the target. If you drink a potion of haste you cannot decide to delay the start of the spell duration until you want it to start, the spell goes off immediately; you are not the caster in the sense of selecting the target or deciding when it is activated.

On that potion of inflict moderate wounds, can you drink it, and hold the charge, since it is a touch spell, then use the spell as a touch attack on someone else?

Unfortunately, that is a (very) gray area, especially since it should, indeed, give a Will save for half damage to the target taking the damage. Indeed, if you drink a more common potion of cure light wounds, can you hold the charge to use it as a touch attack on an undead target?

@steelhead: Note that you cannot have a potion of see invisibility, as that is a personal range spell.

[Ferious Thune]

Martin, for your question about the inflict potion, no, you cannot hold the charge and target someone else, because the drinker of the potion is the target.

[Azothath]

Eric Ives wrote:

So Stephen, I'm trying to understand your position, so let me start with a specific example: a potion of cause moderate wounds. This is an instantaneous spell with no save. If someone were to imbibe it, the potion description says they become the target and the caster. Are you saying that the spell effect would not do damage to the person unless they wanted it to?

Inflict Moderate Wounds has Saving Throw: Will (half); Spell Resistance yes. Description: This spell functions like inflict light wounds, except that you deal 2d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +10). As a potion at minimum level in PFS that's 2d8+3, Will DC 13 for half. (I went with 10+1(Wis 12)+2).

In my case, Gaseous Form, the spell is dismissable. Should have made that clear(er). I agree I seemed contrary in general context... *sigh*... on me...

[Azothath]

Martin Weil wrote:

On that potion of inflict moderate wounds, can you drink it, and hold the charge, since it is a touch spell, then use the spell as a touch attack on someone else?

no

as quoted by PRD, steehead, Ferious Thune; imbiber is the target.

[Ascalaphus]

I keep my medlance loaded with Essence of Independence.

Unlike Protection from Evil, there is no "save vs. harmless" that a charmed/dominated creature might be forced to undertake to stop me helping them. And then it just receives a new save to end the control.

[Ferious Thune]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

I keep my medlance loaded with Essence of Independence.

Unlike Protection from Evil, there is no "save vs. harmless" that a charmed/dominated creature might be forced to undertake to stop me helping them. And then it just receives a new save to end the control.

Neat item. That wouldn't be bad to put into a syringe spear, either, if you don't have access to a medlance. It does have some disadvantages when compared to Protection from Evil, though. Namely that it doesn't come with the immunity to further attempts to dominate, and that it's once per day. But definitely worth it for an Alchemist or Investigator or anyone without easy access to Protection from Evil. And, yeah, if your GM has dominated characters save vs Protection from Evil, that's a big benefit to the essence.

[nosig]

Ferious Thune wrote:

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

I keep my medlance loaded with Essence of Independence.

Unlike Protection from Evil, there is no "save vs. harmless" that a charmed/dominated creature might be forced to undertake to stop me helping them. And then it just receives a new save to end the control.

Neat item. That wouldn't be bad to put into a syringe spear, either, if you don't have access to a medlance. It does have some disadvantages when compared to Protection from Evil, though. Namely that it doesn't come with the immunity to further attempts to dominate, and that it's once per day. But definitely worth it for an Alchemist or Investigator or anyone without easy access to Protection from Evil. And, yeah, if your GM has dominated characters save vs Protection from Evil, that's a big benefit to the essence.

it appears that it would also work for those "Neutral" dominators that the Society seems to bump into so much... the ones that skirt around Prod Evil.

[Ferious Thune]

Good point. I'll definitely pick some up on at least a couple of my characters.

[Ascalaphus]

nosig wrote:

Prod Evil.

Heheh.

[BigNorseWolf]

Flutter definitely needs the spear and freedom combo, for charmed characters and from some of the poorly treated critters the aspis are wandering around with.

[steelhead]

Stephen Ross wrote:

Martin Weil wrote:

On that potion of inflict moderate wounds, can you drink it, and hold the charge, since it is a touch spell, then use the spell as a touch attack on someone else?

no

as quoted by PRD, steehead, Ferious Thune; imbiber is the target.

So it seems we are in agreement? Correct me if I'm wrong about that, but a medlance used to inject a potion will affect the target immediately as though the target were either the beneficiary (in the case of a cure spell) or the victim (in the case of a doom spell). In effect, the target of the medlance is the target of the spell whether, beneficial or harmful.

@Lau Bannenburg, that is a great option. It seems the medlance is going to be best used as a forcible buffing item, or to expand my buffing options at low level. The debuffs just aren't going to have high enough save DCs to make it worthwhile.

Anyone have any other ideas?

[FLite]

Stephen Ross wrote:

controlling the effect means choosing to end it.

The trick about making choices addresses Energy Resistance etc, is it fire, electricity... One of the home rules I use is that if you are a caster and the spell is on your list you can change the specifics at the time of casting (why else be a arcane caster with spellcraft?).

For PFS, the potions just aren't gonna work. GMs will make the simple decision.

Some potion descriptions are written contrary to that general rule... and in those cases it will work. Those are specific whammy potions, like cursed items.

I know, this rule shot down my Gaseous Form potion in Poisoner's Gloves idea... (sheds a tear a little bit)...

This is only the case if the spell in the potion is dismissible. And even then they would need to spend a standard to dismiss it. (Gaseous form won't work because it is "Willing target" only.)

Though I vaguely recall an errata or proposed errata out there based on using personal spells (via an alchemists elixer) and poisoners gloves that says they just don't work unwilling targets. But that isn't really relevant to this discussion.

[Azothath]

I agree these kind of tactics work best on allies, or people that want the spell to affect them. That's probably the best most cost effective usage. The medlance moves the full round action to 'feed a potion' to a standard or move action and action economy is always nice. The 10 uses for $500 is not so nice (see syringe spear which is PFS legal).

as with other threads about this topic (offensive spell use of items) the main issue is once you find a spell that will work;

1) the DC is going to be minimal for an offensive option due to PFS crafting rules. That means most targets are going to make their save. Poisons have a higher DC and cost in general.

1a) directly affects cost effectiveness of the attack. You don't want to spend $300 an attack to have it produce no results. 5 such attacks with one effect make it 5 times the price for the one that did work.

2) spells with no save and no SR are going to be the most effective. There are issues with them in the spell descriptions (willing target, dismissable, ...).

3) touch item so you have to get into combat. Not a good idea for most casters who generally have poor combat skills. Magus, some Alchemist builds are better and certainly Alchemists have a more cost effective mechanic for this.
Other items;
>> Traps... of course you'll have to prepare them each adventure and I'd suggest an add on to a bear trap.
>> Touch Injection spell Alch 2, Sor/wiz 3.
>> Syringe Spear, martial two-handed weapon (no reach but 20' range as thrown weapon) $100.
>> Poisoner's Gloves, wondrous item $5000 but two potions per day.
>> Medlance, $500 and 10 uses.

This generally isn't a cost effective method for spell casters. Items lower the DC for a similar effect that you can cast without monetary cost. Most casters are going to avoid hand to hand combat. Long Arm magus 1, sor/wiz 1 spell gives you +5ft reach <grin> or Spectral Hand sor/wiz 2 is a classic bad touch technique.
Alchemists... yeah... and Magus with spell combat have this built into the class. The analog is the bad touch cleric build.

For combat types a medlance is effective with moderate entry fee for infrequent uses. If you have a handy haversack a loaded syringe spear might do the same with a little damage.
For consistent usage Weapon Wand spell is the way to go. It's the same spell in a can method but a two step. You get the weapon "to hit" combined with the wands cost efficiency. It also works with your primary weapon. Activation is the issue.
A dip in a arcane caster class will give you spell lists and make UMD redundant. Not going that route means you are signing up to pay potion costs per attack and that's fine as this is probably an infrequent attack.