Altering ability bonuses for PCs playing orcs or goblins

[Gronka]

So I am putting together a campaign world where goblins, kolbolds, and orcs aren't necessarily evil (They were created as evil, but the gods left hundreds of years ago and don't control the morality of their minions any more)

I would like the players to have the chance to play them if they want, but I am going to alter the ability scores some because the +4 Str or Dex is too much, so I wanted to get an idea if this would be upsetting the balance too much or if people foresee any problems.

I was thinking for orcs +2 str, +2 wis, -2 int. I originally had though +2 str +2 con -2 int, but that seems like it would make them the uber choice for any fighter or barbarian. +2 wis -2 int seems good because orcs are usually presented as naturally cunning and perceptive but placing no value on education.

For goblins, definitely +2 dex, -2 cha, since goblins are generally unpleasant and quick. I was thinking maybe the other +2 could go in to con? since they seem to be natural survivors and are ok with eating all sorts of gross things. Or maybe +2 int?

For Kobolds, +2 dex; probably -2 str. For the other +2, either int or charisma, since they are presented as schemers who are at least distantly related to dragons.

Any input would be great.

[Gronka]

Oh, also. NPC and enemy monstrous races won't have their ability scores changed; just the PCs.

[Hazrond]

Gronka wrote:

Oh, also. NPC and enemy monstrous races won't have their ability scores changed; just the PCs.

This right here is a no-no, if you are gonna change Orcs and Kobolds you should change ALL Orcs and Kobolds, making the PCs objectively worse than every other member of their race is no bueno.

[Gronka]

I would be making PCs objectively better than standard kolbolds and better rounded than the standard orc (+2 str and wis,-2 int instead of +4 str but -2 int,-2 wis,-2 char)

[Hazrond]

Gronka wrote:

I would be making PCs objectively better than standard kolbolds and better rounded than the standard orc (+2 str and wis,-2 int instead of +4 str but -2 int,-2 wis,-2 char)

Maybe for some, but either way you really should make them the same as other Orcs or Kobolds unless they are in some way different, such as being magical experiments or some such, and also some would prefer those stats in my experience (I had a blast with an Orc Warpriest for instance)

[Deadmanwalking]

I give all Orcs no Wis penalty (or no Cha penalty, their choice), give them the Half Orc Intimidating Racial Trait (+2 to Intimidate), and up their Darkvision to 90 feet. These changes don't meaningfully matter for cannon fodder Orc NPCs (indeed, you can give the standard Bestiary Orc Int 8, Wis 9 and literally nothing changes except their Intimidate going to +4) and allow pretty balanced PCs (I had an Orc Barbarian Princess PC...that was cool).

I don't bother changing Goblins. They're pretty balanced as a PC race as-is.

Kobolds are indeed too weak. I assume any PC Class Kobolds (whether actually PCs or not) get the following stat-spread: -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha. Despite still being a little low in total points, that actually makes PC valid Kobolds in my opinion, because their race traits are actually way better than any PC race has if you ignore their stat-mods. They had to be pretty special as Kobolds go to get a PC clas in the first place, so this works for me.

[Gronka]

I guess allowing +4 to an ability feels like even more power creep to me. If someone boosts their str up to 22, at level 1 that means +6 or +9 damage; power attack means another 2 or 3, so +8 or +12. That seems like a lot.

With dex up to 20 or 22, a level 3 goblin unchained rogue could outdamage and likely out-ac the average fighter. You could bump up constitution to get a lot of hp and basically take on the role of fighter while having a whole lot more utility outside of combat.

I'm not saying I expect that to happen, just that +4 to one ability score seems like a pretty big deal compared to what most PCs get.

[Deadmanwalking]

+4 is nice, but in both races (even by my rules) it's paired with two -2s. that's a net bonus of 0 rather than the +2 conventional PC races get. I feel like it balances out pretty well in play.

[Sundakan]

Your Orc looks solid.

I'd give Goblins a +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis. They're generally described as crafty buggers, but bugf!#$ nuts down to the last goblin with their pyromania and irrational fears of words, dogs, and horses.