Can you use two feats in combination?


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Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I look at Power Attack and others like it as "Toggle" feats. You turn it on when you attack and every attack after that uses that toggle until the beginning of your next turn. Lunge tells you exactly what it does and can be used also.

I also don't think Combat Reflexes or Step Up and Strike are unable to be used after having used Whirlwind Attack, as the character expends a full attack action during his turn which only precludes extra attacks during the action that the feat, such as Haste, Iterates from high BAB, TWF, and others.

I had to correct a GM about this about two years ago, when Grog (PFS Character) used Whirlwind with Lunge, Power Attack and was able to use Step Up and Strike afterward.

Grand Lodge

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Heh. Point him toward the iconic archer builds.

None of them would work at all in his game, since they typically use multiple feats simultaneously, even as early as level 1.

Point Blank Shot - +1 to hit and damage against targets within 30'
Precise Shot - No -4 penalty for firing into melee
Deadly Aim - like Power Attack for ranged attacks
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization - for Fighter archers
Rapid Shot - -2 to hit for an extra attack at full BAB
Manyshot - First shot from full attack fires two arrows as a single attack
Point Blank Master - using ranged weapon does not provoke AoOs
Clustered Shots - Combine ranged weapon damage against a single target and apply DR once
Improved Precise Shot - no penalty from cover or concealment
Hammer the Gap - Each additional consecutive attack that hits the same target does extra damage

And so forth....

Choose between Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot or Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization? Seriously?

Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization are probably among the poster children for feats that are designed to work together.


Given the new information regarding the GM, he is quite literally incompetent and unfit to perform the task of being a GM. How you go from here really depends on the attitude of the rest of the group. If they are just as insane as the GM, ditch them; don't play with that group anymore because you will not have fun. If the rest of the group have even a modicum of sense, kick the GM out of the group and elect a new one because he will most certainly ruin your game.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Try these examples from the FAQ. The first clearly shows two Feats can be used together. The second disallows some specific combinations, but not just because you can't use two Feats.

Tripping

Vital Strike

Boar Style and Boar Shred can definitely be used together, it's right in their text.

There are so many canonical examples of things that get used together, that I think we're all in awe at how badly your GM has misinterpreted the rules.

Anyways, best of luck on this.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Oh, and here's an example on the magic side, although it would seem your GM isn't hosing the magic users.

Two meta magic feats being put together:

Heighten

Liberty's Edge

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

Wait...

AoO's now fall under "extra attacks"?

I feel that tripping everyone with whirlwind attack and then proceeding to get AoO's from vicious stomp and greater trip are within rules. The wording of Whirlwind Attack is "extra or bonus *attacks", not "extra or bonus attacks and/or attacks of opportunity".

Though I could see the confusion (IE there is the attack action, the attack roll, and an attack IE part of a full attack), I feel that whirlwind attack only limits attacks, no attacks of opportunity (hopefully you can see where I'm coming from, it's ok to disagree with my logic though O.o).

I think that the problem is that "and then". vicious stomp say: "Benefit: Whenever an opponent falls prone adjacent to you, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you. This attack must be an unarmed strike." so you must act immediately, when the target fall down. but you can't do that in the middle of the Whirlwind Attack, so you lose the opportunity to make you vicious stomp.

After the Whirlwind Attack has ended and that action has been completed you can take your AoO normally, But at that point the opponents are already prone and you don't have the conditions to apply Vicious stomp.


I would link your GM to this thread, you have not said anything out of line about him, so he shouldn't have any reason to get angry at you.

Most of the other people on this thread, thats another story...

Liberty's Edge

Oliver Veyrac wrote:
CampinCarl9127 wrote:

That is wrong. There are certain feats that have special actions (such as vital strike or spring attack), but those abilities are called out very specifically. If you want, you can use power attack and combat expertise and vital strike all in one.

Unless the feat says otherwise, it can be used with all other feats.

Your GM is trying to bring in his take on realism to the rules, but not everything that we consider realistic is or isn't possible within the realm of Pathfinder. If he wants to be insistent on his houserule that you can't use those feats together, then be insistent that you should be allowed to redo your build since he is now implementing a houserule that you were not told about earlier.

Vital Strike + Power Attack is a pretty much standard approach to some creatures. For example, it's the best way to sunder a weapon. Our player's for Wrath of the Righteous just began sundering when they had to deal with large monsters with reach weapons as they were exceptionally dangerous. Natural weapons are significantly weaker then manufactured weapons that are enchanted. Vital Strike + Power Attack are like gold for sundering, as you are trying to destroy things in one go. That's one part that makes feat combinations powerful.

?

Natural weapons can't be sundered, if that is what you are saying.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Oliver Veyrac wrote:
CampinCarl9127 wrote:

That is wrong. There are certain feats that have special actions (such as vital strike or spring attack), but those abilities are called out very specifically. If you want, you can use power attack and combat expertise and vital strike all in one.

Unless the feat says otherwise, it can be used with all other feats.

Your GM is trying to bring in his take on realism to the rules, but not everything that we consider realistic is or isn't possible within the realm of Pathfinder. If he wants to be insistent on his houserule that you can't use those feats together, then be insistent that you should be allowed to redo your build since he is now implementing a houserule that you were not told about earlier.

Vital Strike + Power Attack is a pretty much standard approach to some creatures. For example, it's the best way to sunder a weapon. Our player's for Wrath of the Righteous just began sundering when they had to deal with large monsters with reach weapons as they were exceptionally dangerous. Natural weapons are significantly weaker then manufactured weapons that are enchanted. Vital Strike + Power Attack are like gold for sundering, as you are trying to destroy things in one go. That's one part that makes feat combinations powerful.

?

Natural weapons can't be sundered, if that is what you are saying.

Yeah. My brain must have had a short-circuit or something. I figured out what Oliver Veyrac meant like half an hour after I wrote that while laying in bed. He meant that they sundered manufactured weapons, leaving their enemies with only (weaker) natural weapons. I did not grasp that concept, the first time ;)

Grand Lodge

Diego Rossi wrote:
Oliver Veyrac wrote:
CampinCarl9127 wrote:

That is wrong. There are certain feats that have special actions (such as vital strike or spring attack), but those abilities are called out very specifically. If you want, you can use power attack and combat expertise and vital strike all in one.

Unless the feat says otherwise, it can be used with all other feats.

Your GM is trying to bring in his take on realism to the rules, but not everything that we consider realistic is or isn't possible within the realm of Pathfinder. If he wants to be insistent on his houserule that you can't use those feats together, then be insistent that you should be allowed to redo your build since he is now implementing a houserule that you were not told about earlier.

Vital Strike + Power Attack is a pretty much standard approach to some creatures. For example, it's the best way to sunder a weapon. Our player's for Wrath of the Righteous just began sundering when they had to deal with large monsters with reach weapons as they were exceptionally dangerous. Natural weapons are significantly weaker then manufactured weapons that are enchanted. Vital Strike + Power Attack are like gold for sundering, as you are trying to destroy things in one go. That's one part that makes feat combinations powerful.

?

Natural weapons can't be sundered, if that is what you are saying.

I am fairly sure that what was intended was that; "Sundering many creatures' manufactured, magical, weapons is frequently a smart move, as their natural weapons, generally, will be much less dangerous, as they don't have all the bonuses from enhancements and feats that the creature's primary weapon would have."

I know that that stupid demon/devil/daemon (whichever it was) from 3E is ugly with its dual wielded longbows. I am fairly sure that it's natural attacks, even though it might get 4 claw attacks instead of 2-4 (or more) longbow attacks, will do much less damage, and probably not hit as often.

Liberty's Edge

Ok. Thanks, that is a reasonable explanation.
For me it is morning and I am making breakfast, so I am a bit slow on the uptake.


Manhuntrado wrote:
CampinCarl9127 wrote:
Manhuntrado wrote:
He also said whirlwind attack you lose all bonuses including dodge and weapon focus.
Hahahahaha, oh man I don't know if we can even help this one. Either we are being very expertly trolled or this GM is completely oblivious.
I was losing my mind during the session trying to keep calm to talk to him afterwards. Everything I tried he shut me down.

Hearing out your GM, what is emerging is that the game he is running isn't Pathfinder. Instead, you are just wandering around inside his little head. If it's too frustrating, it might be time to walk away.

Manhuntrado wrote:
Everything I tried he shut me down.

That is a bad sign.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Manhuntrado wrote:
My DM doesn't allow any feats that require activation. He says you can't feat a feat. His argument is that u can only use whirlwind or cleave one way and any others is illogical.

Find a new GM.


Manhuntrado wrote:
I gest started playing and I am playing a fighter. My GM told me I am not allowed to use two feats in combination like power attack and whirlwind or lunge and combat expertise. I don't think this is true but he doesn't think that feats can be use in combination and the rulebook doesn't cover it in detail.

What if you've got Weapon Focus (longsword) and Toughness? You lose your extra hit points when using longswords?

What if you're a fighter and have Weapon Focus (longsword) and Weapon Specialization (longsword)?

As has been said repeatedly, unless a combination of feats has language that makes them not work together, they do. You can use the above ridiculous examples to demonstrate that.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's important to note that this (utterly awful) GM is not restricting "always on" feats like proficiency and toughness, just ones that a player can choose to have working or not.

So all the reductio ad absurdum using "always on" feats is irrelevant.

The real situation still sucks, though.


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James Risner wrote:
Manhuntrado wrote:
My DM doesn't allow any feats that require activation. He says you can't feat a feat. His argument is that u can only use whirlwind or cleave one way and any others is illogical.
Find a new GM.

When James Risner and I both agree, that's a hell of a thing. Know that this is the truth, or this is the End of Days!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

To use trip feats with Whirlwind is quite a feat tax, I am not sure why it wouldn't work. My character took the Step Up and Strike chain instead. How high a level is this character.

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