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Here's what I have:
Str: 10-2 (8)
Dex: 15 (15)
Con: 10+2 (12)
Int: 18 (18)
Wis: 10 (10)
Cha: 7+2 (9)
Alt. Racial Traits:
Gift of Tongues (hatred, defensive training)
Pyromaniac (gnome magic, illusion resistance) +1 lvl for bomb dmg (includes rogue)
Traits:
Alchemical Adept (+2 alchemy, dont fk up by 5 or more)
Reactionary
1st
Alchemist
Alchemy, Bomb 1d6, Throw Anything, Chameleon Mutagen, Point-Blank Shot (1st)
2nd
Alchemist
Alchemical Weapon, Precise Bombs, Discovery: Explosive Bomb
3rd
Alchemist
Bomb 2d6, Swift Alchemy, Precise Shot (3rd)
4th
Alchemist
Discovery: Explosive Missile
5th
Rouge
Sneak Attack 1d6, Trapfinding, Ricochet Splash Weapon
6th
Rogue
Chemical Weapon, Rogue Talent: Bomber
7th
Rogue
Sneak Attack 2d6, Trap Sense +1, Extra Bombs
8th
Rogue
Precise Splash Weapon, Uncanny Dodge
9th
Alchemist
Bomb 3d6, Extra Discovery: Bore Bomb
10th
Alchemist
Directed Blast, Discovery: Wings
11th
Alchemist
Bomb 4d6, Iron Will
12th
Alchemist
Discovery: Frost Bomb
Plan:
Hybridization funnel tangleburn bag and acid flask precombat. Imbue the hybrid into your bomb using your Grenadier ability as a move action. Place your bomb on your crossbow bolt using Explosive Missile as a standard action (Weapon of choice being Heavy Underwater Crossbow) and fire! You need not spend an action to reload due to Explosive Missile. Also, the weapon should have the Conductive ability, so you can spend 3 uses of bomb (2 must be of same type) and effectively get 2 bombs off in one attack. The bolt damage, magic damage from bow, bomb damage from Conductive, bomb damage from Alchemical Weapon, damage from the hybrid tangleburn/acid flask and potentially sneak attack damage.
Note:
The Conductive ability allows you to say whether or not you want to imbue the ability until you “strike the opponent.” (official wording: When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, which suffers the effects of both the weapon attack and the special ability. ) This means you can see if you hit, then do even more damage!
I realize bows are just better than crossbows (generally) and for thematic purposes of being small size and a gnome, I decided to go with a crossbow to not deal with the strength issues and just go for raw damage. I'm just here looking for general advice. Items, alchemical stuff, vague feats/discoveries that would be thematic and effective.
Also, I based this character off Gaetan 'The Mole' Moliere from the 2001 film, Atlantis.
FYI. The build for this character is based on information from this thread.
bump
Anyone?
I think they were all turned off by the "Gnome" and "Crossbow" parts. ;)
A couple points:
You couldn't use the Grandier's Alchemical Weapon ability on a bomb (since it doesn't exist prior to the action you use to attack with it), but since you're using it with Explosive Missile anyway, just use it on the ammunition instead.
The other big one is whether or not you can use a tangleburn bag with a hybridization funnel - most will say no.
Now, that said, if you're going the crossbow route, Rapid Reload into Crossbow Mastery opens up the opportunity to use a Launching Crossbow...
A couple points:
You couldn't use the Grandier's Alchemical Weapon ability on a bomb (since it doesn't exist prior to the action you use to attack with it), but since you're using it with Explosive Missile anyway, just use it on the ammunition instead.
The other big one is whether or not you can use a tangleburn bag with a hybridization funnel - most will say no.
Now, that said, if you're going the crossbow route, Rapid Reload into Crossbow Mastery opens up the opportunity to use a Launching Crossbow...
I'm sorry. I meant to place the hybrid onto the bolt and not the bomb due to action economy and it not yet existing. Thanks for the feedback. I don't want to go to a table and look stupid.
haph hazardly written. Hopefully legible. Ended up with a bit more time before my appointment
About the plan:
Hum. I don’t know if you really need Rogue talent Bomber and/or extra bombs. Also I don’t’ think in general you need or really want Bomber. It will only do 2d6 damage, no INT, and only INT uses per day. I really feel like these both aren’t terribly useful. But of the two; Extra bombs is likely more useful.
Pyromaniac helps with the damage. The bombs from alchemist would all be 1d6 higher and same for the rogue bombs. I also plan on taking the gnome favored class bonus for more bombs.
So it might always be fire even if your Explosive missle does force damage (my preference)
Explosive Missile does not do force damage.
Another note about conductive. Depending on the GM again (on whether conductive is the actual ability or just a new effect copying it) then precise bombs may or may not help. So a concern there.
See the discussion here and here on the topic. I do not know of anyone who disagrees that this works together.
Also techicnally speaking. Explosive missle can not fire the Rogue bomber’s bombs. IT SHOULD be allowed, but if your GM is one of the more …specific on details types. It won’t. Because those bombs are not “alchemist’s bombs” they’re different bombs.
Luckily the Bomber Talent says "These bombs act as alchemist's bombs." I don't think we will have to rely on a "should" there. They do work.
Regarding him taking Rogue levels: He understands the benefits and downfalls of the deal. Since Saboteur is distinctly roguelike but lacks Trapfinding he wanted to pick that skill up from somewhere. And since Underground Chemist dovetails off a bomber build so well (and allows him the ability to sneak attack with bombs (including those from the Bomber Talent) it seems to fit pretty well. Also, a few corrections for you again here...
Bomber. It will only do 2d6 damage, no INT,
Incorrect, sir.
She adds her Intelligence modifier to damage dealt with splash weapons
+
These bombs act as alchemist's bombs.
+
Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack. Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus. On a direct hit, an alchemist's bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist's Intelligence modifier.
=
It works.Basically, because the bombs from Bomber are still splash weapons regardless of the clause in the Bomber Talent stating "...except they deal damage equal to the damage dealt by the rogue's sneak attack (the rogue doesn't add her Intelligence modifier to this damage)." they would normally not add it. But because the Rogue is also an Alchemist they do because they are still splash weapons. And Alchemists DO add +Int to damage on splash weapons even if Rogues do not.
We are also aware of the action economy not allowing for more than a single arrow/bomb/alchemical/conductive goodness per turn, I don't really see that as much of a downfall here. First of all this is for PFS play and likely wont get much above 12th level. Second, that is an aweful lot of versatility and damage on a single shot. The only way to increase it would be to get Fast Bombs but he is already going to be going through an awful lot of them with his current build.
Concentrated Splash was a consideration, thank you for the suggestion. It likely deserves a second look.
Regarding enhancement bonus on the crossbow... does that actually add to the splash damage? I can see the argument for it doing so but it seems kinda fuzzy.
Firebug: Some questions...
So Quickdraw you are talking about needing for the drawing of alchemical items? As far as the ammunition goes that is a free action. If it is specific ammunition then the Efficient Quiver can help with that. Alchemical Weapons can be made ahead of time and placed onto arrows and it will last for 1 minute. Its not much but it can help if you have a bit to prepare. Do you have any other suggestions outside of vestigial arm that could help with this?
I have warned him that the attack bonus is going to be low. I suggested against going with Saboteur so that he could still make a Dex mutagen to help offset this penalty. I have also suggested picking up Iron Will to help with his Will saves. Outside of that the only things I can think of that will help him are items. I would suggest Bracers of Archery but they don't work for Crossbows. Bracers of Falcon's Aim are not PFS legal. Outside of Dex items and weapon enhancements I don't have a lot of suggestions for adding to his to-hit. Suggestions?
I don't think you can do Int to damage twice if it is all from the same source. It coming from 2 different things I think is a bit moot if the delivery device is the same. Unless there has been some ruling on this that I am not aware of?
Unchained Rogue is a good suggestion. We do not own the book yet but it would likely be a good purchase. Finesse Training doesn't work with ranged weapons and I honestly do not see him ever use a melee weapon with this character so that goes to waste. Debilitating Injury could be helpful, though.
I made a tank Alchemist for the last home game I played in. It was fun, but you are right. In the arms race that is Pathfinder one can never be too tanky. Ablative Barrier is so good with Healing Touch by the way. ;)
Right now LordAwesome is mulling over the idea of dropping Saboteur. He doesn't like the idea of giving up the iconic imagery of what a Saboteur does. But mechanically speaking the only thing he thinks he is going to miss are the Bore Bombs which I have said can't be that important if he is putting them off until 9th level.
Does anyone know of some good ways to damage structures? I think if he has this part of the concept filled then he wont have any issue with dropping Saboteur.
the implication was, that he would have other discoveries for bombs. that he would apply on it. My preference wa the force damage.
Ah, gotcha. Was confused. But yeah, and I guess that would help with the damaging structures thing.
and I have encountered more than a handful of GMs who have called Conductive its own thing that replicates an ability. This was in and out of pfs.
Fair warning seems like it can only help
Frankly I am surprised. I shouldn't be with the number of clearly wrong interpretations I have seen enforced. Either way, thank you for the heads up.
I was pointing it out cause TONS of folks love to get on alchemist's shoulder if they aren't spamming fast bombs.
Fast bombs just isn't sustainable. And besides it wont work with his schtick. Also, even if it did he couldn't be hitting their AC so he could only do it with normal bombs. So... screw those folks. ;)
In my experience having 1 full minute of prep time is never going to happen unless you are the one doing the ambushing and don't have to worry about stealth. You may have a round or two at most.
Before you go into the dungeon could work but doesn't give a lot of time before the encounter. There is also before you open that door you know has stuff behind it. But I know what you mean. But anyway, so the only solution you can suggest for this is Quick Draw? I had thought that there was an item that could help for this. I thought it was a Bandolier but can't find anything that would apply in this situation.
Heroism (+2 morale, also will save), Pale Green Prism (Cracked) Ioun Stone (+1 competence), invisibility (+2 and vs flatfooted, if it wasn't PFS sipping jacket + CL 5 potion of vanish or greater invisibility made by a summoner), Tangleshot Arrows (-1 but touch), Haste (+1 to hit), Reduce Person (+2 dex, +1 to hit, if using tangleshot your arrow doesn't do any damage anyway...), Scent + Pheromone Arrows, Ring of Tactical Precision with (Coordinated Shot, Friendly Fire Maneuvers and/or Enfilading Fire) and give it to someone who is going to be in melee anyway.
Yeah, Heroism is going to be staple for him. I suggested grabbing a potion and using Alchemical Allocation for it most of the time. Same with Haste as it also helps him with his poor movement speed. Reduce Person doesn't change the size of ranged weapons because once the ammo leaves your body it returns to normal size. So it is really only beneficial to him but it has a short duration. It also helps with Stealth though. Greater Invisibility will be great later on as he can still get his sneak attack on the bolt itself. However, it doesn't work with potions made by Summoners as that isn't how potions work in PFS.
The Tangleshot Arrows I think are the best suggestion yet as it seems like they solve the low to-hit issues almost single-handedly. There is still the bit about cost, though, but that is largely taken care of by the fact that he can make them himself. And I found a bit in the Alchemy Manual that allows them to be made as bolts. Same with Dye Arrows and they are cheaper.
Instead of Iron Will, choose extra discovery: tumor familiar with a familiar that gives +2 will, like a hedgehog. So same bonus, plus alertness and if its a protector familiar effectively shield other a good amount of the time, and its not a target because its attached. Valet and share the teamwork feats I mentioned earlier. + Invisibility extract/infusion and never making attacks on its own just providing flanking for your melee teammates.
Tumor Familiar is really one of those things that needs to be part of a concept for a character. Mechanically, I will grant you that it is better for sure. About the Valet Familiar though, that is out in PFS and likely is out outside as well due to this line:
"...the valet familiar retains the Alertness feat and does not gain Cooperative Crafting, though this still counts as modifying the alertness ability for the purpose of qualifying for archetypes."I will bring up Protector Familiar though.
Int to damage x2
Hm... I can see your point. If it requires 2 saves and hits resistance twice then it should apply Int twice.
Better when you add Mummification to be immune to the non-lethal damage and save Spontaneous healing for when you drop below 0.
Actually it equates to about the same thing since when you heal damage you heal an equal amount of non-lethal. Yeah, being immune to non-lethal is helpful but when you are healing it every round it is nearly as good and saves you a Discovery. ;)
You bolded the wrong part of Reduce Person. Look at the sentence preceding what you bolded.
So I was thinking I'd go back and take a look at your advice about the Valet familiar thinking that I missed something. So lets go back because I don't think I took anything out of context.
Ring of Tactical Precision with (Coordinated Shot, Friendly Fire Maneuvers and/or Enfilading Fire) and give it to someone who is going to be in melee anyway.
Instead of Iron Will, choose extra discovery: tumor familiar with a familiar that gives +2 will, like a hedgehog. So same bonus, plus alertness and if its a protector familiar effectively shield other a good amount of the time, and its not a target because its attached. Valet and share the teamwork feats I mentioned earlier. + Invisibility extract/infusion and never making attacks on its own just providing flanking for your melee teammates.
First of all, I think that the Hedgehog is the only familiar that gives anything to Will saves. I couldn't find another one. Unless I'm missing something?
I understand that you are changing pace with suggesting the Valet familiar vs Hedgehog but if we look at the feats that you are suggesting using with it I don't think they work.
Benefit: If your ally with this feat is threatening an opponent and is not providing cover to that opponent against your ranged attacks, you gain a +1 bonus on ranged attacks against that opponent. If your ally with this feat is flanking that opponent with another ally (even if that other ally doesn't have this feat), this bonus increases to +2.
The bolded parts are two things that Tiny and smaller creatures cannot do. A hedgehog familiar cannot threaten and it cannot flank.
Benefit(s): You initiate this feat as a standard action, making a ranged attack against a foe engaged in melee with at least one abettor. This shot deliberately forsakes normal precautions, putting your abettor at risk, but also is unexpected enough to surprise your mutual opponent.
You gain a +2 bonus on your attack roll if the attack passes through an abettor's space. If your shot misses the target, you must immediately make a second attack roll with all the same modifiers against the abettor, potentially hitting her with the attack instead of the opponent. When the attack resolves (regardless of whether either potential target was hit), the intended target's startled reaction provokes an attack of opportunity from the abettor.
You cannot use the standard action that this feat takes to activate and still use this character's schtick (Alchemical Weapon + Explosive Missile).
Also, while the hedgehog could be between the opponent and the character it wouldn't be threatening them thus it couldn't possibly stack with Coordinated Shot even if you could find a way to make it threaten while in the opponent's square. It is either threatening and in the square or it is outside of the square and you don't get the bonus from Friendly Fire.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on ranged attacks made against a foe flanked by 1 or more allies with this feat.
Not sure what part to bold here. Tiny creatures cannot flank so having a Tiny or smaller familiar with this feat is not helpful.
I think these feats could work fine with a different critter or with the aforementioned ring. But for a hedgehog familiar? Or really any familiar gained without Improved Familiar (outside of Mauler in their battle form, I suppose because they can threaten)? I'm not seeing it. So am I missing something?
The bit about making it a Protector familiar is good though. Thank you for that.