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What is the penalty to attack with a Titan Fighter's one-sized-too-large-two-handed-weapon?
Giant Weapon Wielder (Ex): At 1st level, a titan fighter can wield two-handed melee weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself, treating them as two-handed weapons. He takes an additional –2 penalty on attack rolls when using an oversized two-handed weapon. This ability replaces the fighter’s 1st level bonus feat.
One size larger is -2, normally, right? So with the additional penalty, -4 on the attack rolls?
But then:
Incredible Heft (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan fighter becomes more skilled at wielding weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself. The penalty on attack rolls for using such weapons is reduced by 1, including when using oversized two-handed weapons. At 7th level and every 4 levels thereafter, this penalty is reduced by another 1 (minimum 0). This ability replaces armor training.
At 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th and 19th, reduces the penalty by 1. Is there anyway that the weapon would have a -5 penalty or greater due to being oversized? The class features are only affecting the weapons one-size too large and originally two-handed.
As I read it, the minimum 0 bit means that the 19th level bit has no effect, as -4 should be the max penalty for any one step oversized weapon affected by the "giant weapon wielder (ex)" class feature.
Just spitballing here, but maybe if the weapon itself adds a penalty...
Like the Double Crossbow. You take a -4 penalty to hit with it even if proficient due to the size and weight.
This isn't the greatest example, since the abilities aren't actually applicable to it, but a weapon with a similar "feature" (an inherent penalty due to it's heft) could be negated by the class feature.
Maybe...
Yes, -4 at level 1.
Yes, the ability starts reducing penalties that are no longer.
Pathfinder has made using oversized weapons completely suck, no real way around it without being a tiefling.
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Thanks for the Clarification.
Though regarding oversized weapons sucking, I got some funny looks from the GM when I showed off how much damage a Core raging level 1 barbarian can do with a large Morningstar
Core Barbarian level 1
Half Orc (+2 on str)
Str 20 (+5 mod. +7 with rage)
Large Morningstar is 2d6 damage (+7 with str mod, +10 with rage).
I took Power Attack at level 1 (+3 damage at level 1).
+1 BAB
-2 penalty on attack rolls (morningstars are normally 1-handed).
So, Power attack without rage, +3 to attack and 2d6+10 for damage.
With rage and power attack, jumps to +5 to attack and 2d6+13 damage.
Mind you, the 20 str really cost me, and I ended up being blinded by a Darkness Cleric within the first PFS session...50% miss-chance was a real annoyance to this build. lol.
I know, question was about fighters, not barbarians, but that basic 2d6+10 is pretty sweet for a fighter, though I'd be at only +2 on the attack roll at level 1. Still, I think I'm getting a reach weapon (like a long spear) at that 2d6+10 damage. Should be pretty impressive.
So? I can do that with a greatsword. And I don't have to have a large penalty to hit by using an oversized weapon. And I have a better crit range.
I'm taking a leap here, that you read "oversized weapon", and thought that actually meant "overSIZEed weapon",
Unfortunately, the RAW for Titan Fighter / Titan Mauler is meant only to assist with the wielding of appropriately sized weapons (relative to your character's size), but were meant originally meant for larger creatures.
In example: a throwing knife that was originally sized for a hill giant (large) would make a passable dagger for a Halfling (small), provided the Halfling in question could figure a way cope with the balance and the grip being designed for much larger hands.
That is all that class feature does. Absolutely nothing else. Per RAW. (As written, I can't see this class feature serving a realistic purpose, outside of: 1- It keeps the rest of the party from stealing your stuff, because none of it is useable to anyone else because of the oversized grips and off-balance construction. or 2- it keeps you from having to go to town to get gear modified, if for some reason absolutely no one in your party has any inkling on how to re-size the grips on a pre-existing weapon.)
A lot of the reason RAW deliberately cops out on letting a character play around with wielding truly oversized weapons, is that it would be challenging to find a way to balance this under existing rules.
Imagine a level 1 half-orc barbarian wielding a an overzied greatsword. Would it be fun for the other players when the result to every encounter is "Orc Smash!", and every CR appropriate baddie is eliminated automatically with even a minimum damage roll?
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That said: If you do entertain thoughts of a character wielding something on the order of Cloud's bastard sword from FF7, or Sanouske's horse killing sword from Ruroni Kenshin, then I offer a link to a houserule I had suggested on the topic awhile back.
I think it provides a decent framework to limit the abuse, while still making it possible for a character to wield such weapons within balance.
Homebrew "Fix" for Titan Prestige/Titan Fighter
(EDIT: Obviously, this wouldn't work for organized/PFS play. - Just put it out there as an alterative for those who might benefit from the idea in a non-organized game.)
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So? I can do that with a greatsword. And I don't have to have a large penalty to hit by using an oversized weapon. And I have a better crit range.
To each their own, I guess. Greatsword is another good route, if you like that weapon.
For the medium titan Fighter, it would be 3d6 base damage with a Large Greatsword, with a -4 penalty on the attack rolls.
Personally, I'd rather have Brace and Reach with a 2d6 weapon than neither with a 2d6 version. Though I'll admit to being tempted by the Longaxe/Longhammer (3d6 with Reach). The bigger the weapon, the more fearsome Brace becomes.
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There's really no way to get -5 from oversize penalties. A medium character could wield a large light or 1-h weapon as a 1-h or 2-h, respectively, for -2. He could wield a huge light weapon as 2-h for -4. A Titan Fighter or Titan Mauler, in addition to those, could wield a large 2-h weapon at -4 (-2 for 1 size too big, -2 for wielding an oversized 2-h weapon).
Well, the medium Titan-Mauler is -6 for Large Greatswords and such (-2 for being oversized and -4 from the Massive weapons class feature).