|
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Oreads: all alternate racial traits, favored class options, racial archetypes, racial equipment, feats, magic items, and spells are legal for play.
The unchained summoner qualifies for all existing summoner archetypes, save those that modify the eidolon's type or base form.
The Oread boon gives me access to the race and thereby to Shaitan Summoner per Additional Resources for Advanced Race Guide, and it's clearly and explicitly stated as legal. The Society Unchained post is a blog post which says archetypes that modify the base form are not legal. So which is it? Which is more authoritative in this case? Because they are contradictory statements.
Also, if Shaitan Binder were just "grandfathered" for regular Summoners, it should be called out as not legal except when grandfathered in. That seems to be how it's usually done, but that is not the case with Shaitan Binder.
EDIT: It has also occurred to me there's a lot of ambiguity in what they mean by "base form." Is it the feature "Base Form" or base form as in bipedal/serpentine/quadruped? Because technically the Shaitan Binder does not *have* to pick bipedal, they just lose out on the +2 to a stat if they do not. So it is modifying the Base Form feature of the Eidolon, but not the actual base form selection (biped/quadruped/serpentine).
|
My guess is Oreads are uncommon enough in PFS that it just wasn't addressed when Unchained came out.
Also, since this is a question about what is a legal option to take in PFS, I've flagged it to be moved to the PFS forums. It's not a question about how the archetype works. It's a question about whether or not it's allowed to be taken in PFS. So John, Linda, or Tonya would be the ones to answer the question. They're much more likely to see it over there.
|
|
Archetypes that modify the base form are not legal for Unchained Summoners which are the only legal version of summoners you can make.
But archetypes like Shaitan summoner are perfectly legal for grandfathered APG Summoners.
It similar to saying racial traits and feats are legal and then banning the race. If you somehow get a legal way to play the race you already know what material is legal.
|
|
Shaitan Binder modifies the base form and is therefore illegal.
Base Form: At 1st level, if a shaitan binder's eidolon has the biped base form, it gains a +2 bonus to one ability score. The shaitan binder must make this choice at 1st level. If at any time the shaitan binder's eidolon has another base form, it loses this bonus until it returns to biped form. A shaitan binder's eidolon does not gain the share spells ability.
|
|
My guess is Oreads are uncommon enough in PFS that it just wasn't addressed when Unchained came out.
Also, since this is a question about what is a legal option to take in PFS, I've flagged it to be moved to the PFS forums. It's not a question about how the archetype works. It's a question about whether or not it's allowed to be taken in PFS. So John, Linda, or Tonya would be the ones to answer the question. They're much more likely to see it over there.
Thanks, sorry about that. I'll try to remember this in the future. :)
|
|
Shaitan Binder modifies the base form and is therefore illegal.
** spoiler omitted **
Problem is the ambiguity in what base form means. Adding to a stat isn't changing the shape of the creature in any way (number of limbs, types of attacks, etc on the base form). The way it is worded it could either mean Base Form the class feature, or base form, the actual shape of the eidolon. It's unclear.
Also, it's explicitly allowed in additional resources still, which seems it would be a more authoritative source than a blog post. You may be totally right, and I accept that, but there's enough ambiguity here that I was hoping someone could help clear that up.
EDIT: Also, forgot to mention, having that blog post be the only reference stating that certain Unchained Summoner archetypes are not legal defeats the purpose of the Additional Resources document, which is to have a single go-to source for all questions of content legality. I noticed the Wild Caller is still included as legal in Races of The Wild (but that one is unquestionably modifying the base form, as it gives you entirely new base forms to choose from. And it modifies type, [plant, extraplanar]).
|
|
Shaitan Binder modifies the base form and is therefore illegal.
** spoiler omitted **
Problem is the ambiguity in what base form means. Adding to a stat isn't changing the shape of the creature in any way (number of limbs, types of attacks, etc on the base form). The way it is worded it could either mean Base Form the class feature, or base form, the actual shape of the eidolon. It's unclear.
Also, it's explicitly allowed in additional resources still, which seems it would be a more authoritative source than a blog post. You may be totally right, and I accept that, but there's enough ambiguity here that I was hoping someone could help clear that up. :)
Did the previously legal archetypes that changed the base form get removed from the additional resources list once unchained came out?
If not, then the fact that it's listed as legal on that list doesn't do anything to override the rule that it's illegal for the unchained summoner.|
|
Shaitan Binder modifies the base form and is therefore illegal.
** spoiler omitted **
Problem is the ambiguity in what base form means. Adding to a stat isn't changing the shape of the creature in any way (number of limbs, types of attacks, etc on the base form). The way it is worded it could either mean Base Form the class feature, or base form, the actual shape of the eidolon. It's unclear.
Also, it's explicitly allowed in additional resources still, which seems it would be a more authoritative source than a blog post. You may be totally right, and I accept that, but there's enough ambiguity here that I was hoping someone could help clear that up. :)
Did the previously legal archetypes that changed the base form get removed from the additional resources list once unchained came out?
If not, then the fact that it's listed as legal on that list doesn't do anything to override the rule that it's illegal for the unchained summoner.
Additional Resources makes absolutely no mention of the legality of applying pre-unchained archetypes to unchained classes at all, anywhere. For all of this, players must reference other material outside Additional Resources. Further, the FAQ for Pathfinder Unchained is completely silent on the topic of archetypes. And, the post stating how Unchained interacts with non-Unchained archetypes reads more like a clarification than a rules-update.
Here's the entirety of the Pathfinder Unchained entry in Additional Resources for PFS:
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Pathfinder Unchained
The following parts of Pathfinder Unchained are legal for play:Classes: all classes on pages 8-39 are legal for play; Skill Unlocks: the skill unlocks and Signature Skill feat are only available through the rogue's edge class ability.
The blog post for Society Unchained has been live for months now, so at the very least Additional Resources needs to be updated. It's incomplete and misleading right now; people are going to be making illegal characters if they only reference Additional Resources. And at best, I am hoping we can get clarification on whether "base form" is referring to the Eidolon "class" feature as a whole, or the actual shape of the eidolon itself (limbs, attacks, etc).
I'm not planning on making my Oread anytime soon, but when I do, I would really love if Additional Resources was clear one way or the other.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Shaitan Binder modifies the base form and is therefore illegal.
** spoiler omitted **
Problem is the ambiguity in what base form means. Adding to a stat isn't changing the shape of the creature in any way (number of limbs, types of attacks, etc on the base form). The way it is worded it could either mean Base Form the class feature, or base form, the actual shape of the eidolon. It's unclear.
Also, it's explicitly allowed in additional resources still, which seems it would be a more authoritative source than a blog post. You may be totally right, and I accept that, but there's enough ambiguity here that I was hoping someone could help clear that up. :)
Did the previously legal archetypes that changed the base form get removed from the additional resources list once unchained came out?
If not, then the fact that it's listed as legal on that list doesn't do anything to override the rule that it's illegal for the unchained summoner.
I mean, looking at it, I'm not seeing that it modifies the base form. It gives it a bonus if it is a certain base form, but it's not like the First Worlder or Synthesist that actually modifies what the eidolon's base form is. So I'm inclined to agree that it is a legal archetype for the Unchained Summoner, but I'm obviously not the design team, so I'll await what they say rather than continuing to argue the point.
|
|
I mean, looking at it, I'm not seeing that it modifies the base form. It gives it a bonus if it is a certain base form, but it's not like the First Worlder or Synthesist that actually modifies what the eidolon's base form is. So I'm inclined to agree that it is a legal archetype for the Unchained Summoner, but I'm obviously not the design team, so I'll await what they say rather than continuing to argue the point.Shaitan Binder modifies the base form and is therefore illegal.
** spoiler omitted **
Problem is the ambiguity in what base form means. Adding to a stat isn't changing the shape of the creature in any way (number of limbs, types of attacks, etc on the base form). The way it is worded it could either mean Base Form the class feature, or base form, the actual shape of the eidolon. It's unclear.
Also, it's explicitly allowed in additional resources still, which seems it would be a more authoritative source than a blog post. You may be totally right, and I accept that, but there's enough ambiguity here that I was hoping someone could help clear that up. :)
Did the previously legal archetypes that changed the base form get removed from the additional resources list once unchained came out?
If not, then the fact that it's listed as legal on that list doesn't do anything to override the rule that it's illegal for the unchained summoner.
Yeah exactly. It has juuuuuust enough ambiguity that I am hoping we can get Additional Resources updated to be a bit clearer. Also Wild Caller should probably be called out. Haa!
|
The reason some Summoner archetypes are still legal in the Additional Resources, even though they conflict with the Unchained blog post is probably purely for grandfathered Summoners. If they were to remove those entries then any grandfathered summoner using that archetype would have to be rebuilt according to the rebuild rules.
Just my 2 cents as why certain conflicting archetypes are still listed in the Additional Resources.
Another thing of note: I just went into Hero Lab and created a new Oread Summoner and the Archetype in question was listed as legal in Hero Lab. Of course that doesn't mean it is legal though - for instance, I used to have a Spinosaurus as an animal companion, and then they went and removed it from the Additional Resources, and that was some time ago that it got the ban hammer, but Hero Lab still lists it as valid.
Pretty much this.
I'm also not sure how you can consider any change to the base for as not modifying it. If it is no longer the same as it was before, it has been modified.
|
|
The reason some Summoner archetypes are still legal in the Additional Resources, even though they conflict with the Unchained blog post is probably purely for grandfathered Summoners. If they were to remove those entries then any grandfathered summoner using that archetype would have to be rebuilt according to the rebuild rules.
Just my 2 cents as why certain conflicting archetypes are still listed in the Additional Resources.
Another thing of note: I just went into Hero Lab and created a new Oread Summoner and the Archetype in question was listed as legal in Hero Lab. Of course that doesn't mean it is legal though - for instance, I used to have a Spinosaurus as an animal companion, and then they went and removed it from the Additional Resources, and that was some time ago that it got the ban hammer, but Hero Lab still lists it as valid.
Add a single clause to the APG that says any archetypes that were legal when the Summoner was made are legal for that character only. Done. Summoner isn't legal either, they just grandfathered it in. And that grandfathering can be done in the APG entry so they don't have to repeat that caveat all over the place.
I'm also not sure how you can consider any change to the base for as not modifying it. If it is no longer the same as it was before, it has been modified.
Already explained it. There's ambiguity in whether the reference is to the "base form" i.e. bipedal/quad/serpent OR "Base Form" capital B.F. the class feature.
And back to David's post, yes, AR needs to be updated regardless of the legality of Shaitan Binder. It's unclear. People looking to make a character who are looking only at AR do not have enough information to make a legal character. It would appear to them that Wild Caller and Shaitan Binder are actually legal (Wild Caller 100% definitely is not). So, I'm not sure how you can consider the AR failing its most basic purpose completely acceptable. Expecting players, and GMs to sift through every little blog post for legality-crumbs that are not included in the AR completely defeats the purpose of having it in the first place. How are people even capable of disagreeing with this concept?
|
|
Wild caller is a legal archetype. End of story. Can the unchained summoner take it? No. But it's still a legal archetype. You might as well be complaining about the Purifier Oracle being legal even though being an Aasimar isn't legal normally. Or complaining that Eldritch Scoundrel rogue can't be on an unchained rogue even though unchained said all rogue archetypes work for Unchained rogue.
"OMG I went and made an Aasimar Purifier Oracle since it's a legal archetype and I go and find out that me choosing Aasimar was illegal. We should put a note on this archetype and ALL the other archetypes that are similar to this one and note that they are banned and then make a note saying that they are legal if you meet some condition."
Oh wait, that's what we have now. It tells us what stuff is legal for a character, and if all your choices are legal you're good to go. If something legal is predicated on being something that is illegal, you can't choose it unless you make the foundation legal first.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"There's ambiguity in whether the reference is to the "base form" i.e. bipedal/quad/serpent OR "Base Form" capital B.F. the class feature. "
I just...can't. My canning is officially exhausted. Can is not what I feel canning inside my skin.
I hope you get a satisfactory answer at some point, I do, but also that you give a long hard look at the straws you've grasped.
|
|
I'm also not sure how you can consider any change to the base for as not modifying it. If it is no longer the same as it was before, it has been modified.Well that's the thing, whether or not it actually modifies the eidolon's base form is unclear.
You've more or less got three layers of ambiguity here:
1) Does Base Form refer to the entire Eidolon's starting package, or the Base Form entry written into each eidolon type? Or hell, just the eidolon's specific form.
i.e., an Agathion eidolon has "Biped (claws, limbs [arms], limbs [legs]) or quadruped (limbs [legs, 2], bite)" written under its base form entry and the Oread racial archetype changes none of those features.
In turn your eidolon's base statistics are 'determined' by your base form, which at best leaves it ambiguous if they're one and the same.
2) Does the class feature intrinsically modify the eidolon's statistics, or is it something separate because it's described as a bonus rather than an actual change?
Not only is it worded as a bonus rather than an alteration, but it's a bonus that only applies situationally at that. If this disqualifies the Shaitan binder it brings up the silly question of whether or not the archetype is okay if you're using a Serpentine eidolon instead of a bipedal one, because the archetype explicitly doesn't modify non-bipeds.
3) If the former is correct in 2, is modify being used to refer to the explicit game term or is it being used colloquially to refer to any change?
Notably the Shaitan Binder doesn't modify the eidolon for the purposes of archetype stacking. It's completely compatible with any archetype that changes your base eidolon.
..."There's ambiguity in whether the reference is to the "base form" i.e. bipedal/quad/serpent OR "Base Form" capital B.F. the class feature. "
I just...can't. My canning is officially exhausted. Can is not what I feel canning inside my skin.
I hope you get a satisfactory
Finally someone getting the point I am trying to make. And yeah the +2 is provided as an untyped bonus, so technically if the base form grants 13 STR, the base form STILL grants 13 str and remains unchanged, but the *eidolon* gets a +2 untyped bonus to whatever stat (probably STR).
I know it's clear which one I want to be true. But, at the same time I completely agree either case could be true, which is why I was hoping for clarification. I will even cede that it is more likely that Shaitan Binder is not legal; I just don't think it is 100% clear. Nevermind the issues with the AR not clearly communicating the archetype's legality without the need to reference another external source (blog post).
But as usual people just want to argue and insinuate my intelligence score is below 10.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Eidolons don't have a class feature. They are the class feature.
Everything under the Base Form heading is part of the Base Form. Anything in that paragraph that changes, is added to, or is subtracted from, modifies the base form.
Any perceived ambiguity is wishful thinking.
|
|
Constructive: While I can see where some ambiguity might be perceived, I'm looking at it the same way I do the archtype stacking rules clarified for PFS. If it basically even mentions that particular ability, it is consider to modify it. Ex. two archtypes that both add class skills do not stack, even if they don't modify the specific skill.
I concur it's dumb. I lost a Shaitan Binder when Unchained was released because I opted to volunteer and GM rather than play. [edited to remove comments about org play volunteers before paizo staff does]
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I agree that this is ambiguous enough to require clarification. I'm inclined to think it's not allowed, and I certainly wouldn't recommend someone try to build one given the disagreement, but I think there is a reasonable case to be made for it being legal.
|
Contributor
|
I agree that this is ambiguous enough to require clarification. I'm inclined to think it's not allowed, and I certainly wouldn't recommend someone try to build one given the disagreement, but I think there is a reasonable case to be made for it being legal.
This is pretty much where I am, although slightly more optimistic. I've submitted it for inclusion in Campaign Clarifications. ^_^
|
|
How will they know that it's illegal? By looking up the post that says it is.
How will they most likely find out? By going to a table and someone that knows it's illegal will tell them there's a post saying it's illegal.
This argument is similar to the UMonk and archetypes and UBarb and archetypes. Both have archetypes that are legal for the core version but not for the unchained version. "What lets someone know that the UBarb can't be an urban rager? UBarbs are legal and urban ragers are legal." "Why can't I take maneuver master with my UMonk? it has all the class features to trade out."
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hmmm... I don't see the shaitan modifying the eidolon's base form. It's starting stats are its starting stats. This option grants a bonus to a stat, but loses the share spells ability. Share spells is modified, not the base form.
If "Anything in that paragraph that changes, is added to, or is subtracted from, modifies the base form," is accurate then buying the limbs or the improved ability evolution (as well as adding +1 to Str/Dex at level 2) modifies the base form.
I also don't see a difference in base form and Base Form.
Just my opinion of course.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I also don't see a difference in base form and Base Form.
In the Paizo style guide, class features aren't capitalized, and they weren't capitalized in the blog post. The people capitalizing it are trying to emphasize a distinction that doesn't exist in the text of the blog post.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe the Additional Resources Doc at some point in the future should be modified so that it calls out whether a given archetype that is legal for Unchained Summoner vs Chained Summoner. The same could potentially be done for Unchained Rogues and talents not from the RPG line.
Just a thought.
|
Contributor
|
Hmmm... I don't see the shaitan modifying the eidolon's base form.I didn't until i looked it up and the stat bonus is written under a big old heading of "base form"
Why, so it does. That's not promising.
|
|
So because someone in 2012 didn't know how to write archetypes, one of the most cool and flavorful summoner archetypes is now ruined for Pathfinder Society. That's legitimately upsetting.
Thank you for understanding my frustration. :P Oreads can use neither of their racial archetypes unless this is cleared up in favor of Shaitan Binder. I am just going to sit on my boon until I find out either way.
And seeing as there is a Season 7 scenario which is granting the boon now... a lot of people are going to be sad, or worse, unknowning GMs and players might be leveling up and playing illegal characters. (Depending on which way this goes, if it goes anywhere.)
|
|
Hmmm... I don't see the shaitan modifying the eidolon's base form.I didn't until i looked it up and the stat bonus is written under a big old heading of "base form"Why, so it does. That's not promising.
** spoiler omitted **
Eh, I think it's a bit much to say the writer of "one of the most flavorful" archetypes didn't know how to write them, when the chief complaint is about how a book three years into the future would affect it in organized play.
|
Should the restriction on UC archetypes be on the AR? Sure, a small section under Unchained. AR is for legalities, and this is an issue of whether an archetype Is legal. Is it as big of a failure or problem as you're making it out to be? To put it simply, no, it isn't.
I am just going to sit on my boon until I find out either way.
You'll probably be sitting on it forever then if you don't want to take the answers of people who've probably been around longer than most in this thread combined.
|
|
Should the restriction on UC archetypes be on the AR? Sure, a small section under Unchained. AR is for legalities, and this is an issue of whether an archetype Is legal. Is it as big of a failure or problem as you're making it out to be? To put it simply, no, it isn't.
I am just going to sit on my boon until I find out either way.You'll probably be sitting on it forever then if you don't want to take the answers of people who've probably been around longer than most in this thread combined.
If AR gets updated as it should have been already, then I'll have my answer. AR still says Shaitan Binder is legal. The blog post mentioning Unchained Summoners is not clear because of Paizo's style guide. The style guide also causes confusion about whether a particular text is referencing a race or subtype in many cases. But that's beside the point; AR needs to be updated.
|
|
Oreads can use neither of their racial archetypes unless this is cleared up in favor of Shaitan Binder.Oreads can't use the monk archetype?
I misspoke; race doesn't have anything to do with the Maneuver Master. I was still thinking of Summoners. Oreads can use Maneuver Master; Unchained Monks cannot. Oread chained Monks can use Student of Stone; Oread unchained Monks cannot. Just got my wires crossed, sorry.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And then you read what's under that heading and realize it anything at all and just if you pick a specific type of eidolon and you're back to square one? `Bingo.Hmmm... I don't see the shaitan modifying the eidolon's base form.I didn't until i looked it up and the stat bonus is written under a big old heading of "base form"
Huh?