I cannot believe I forgot this one! Metamagic! Wizards don't take as long as sorcerers do when casting metamagic'ed up spells!On the flip side though, wizards have to prepare metamagic in advance, committing higher level spell slots.
I'd agree that sorcerers tend to benefit more from metamagic feats. Those new high level spell slots where you've only got one spell known? Now they can be used for a variety of powerful metamagic spells.
On the other hand, metamagic rods are better for wizards. Wizards get the benefit of spontaneous use, and unlike a sorcerer, they can draw the rod as a move action in the same round.
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I cannot believe I forgot this one! Metamagic! Wizards don't take as long as sorcerers do when casting metamagic'ed up spells!On the flip side though, wizards have to prepare metamagic in advance, committing higher level spell slots.I'd agree that sorcerers tend to benefit more from metamagic feats. Those new high level spell slots where you've only got one spell known? Now they can be used for a variety of powerful metamagic spells.
On the other hand, metamagic rods are better for wizards. Wizards get the benefit of spontaneous use, and unlike a sorcerer, they can draw the rod as a move action in the same round.
Yeahh, I agree. Since every caster worth their salt carries multiple metamagic rods (ie the rods are much, much better than the feats). Wizards can use the rods as a standard action while sorcerers have to use a full round action. This is a pretty clear advantage for Wizards.
The real question here is, why even bother playing a Sorcerer when the Blood Arcanist exists?
The real question here is, why even bother playing a Sorcerer when the Blood Arcanist exists?
They might want the feats and bonus spells. If they plan to be binding outsiders a sorcerer is more likely to have a higher charisma making the task easier. Arcanist also still have to prepare spells, and that is one reason to avoid an arcanist and a wizard.
The real question here is, why even bother playing a Sorcerer when the Blood Arcanist exists?They might want the feats and bonus spells. If they plan to be binding outsiders a sorcerer is more likely to have a higher charisma making the task easier. Arcanist also still have to prepare spells, and that is one reason to avoid an arcanist and a wizard.
While I can get the sentiment, you can easily make the Feats up with the Metamagic Exploits, Potent Magic for Spell Focus, Dimensional Slide for mobility (versus the ever present Nimble Moves) and a higher Int to offset the Skill Focus feat thats generally in the pool.
I suppose Bonus Spells from the Bloodline is a decent reason, though being stuck to Charisma again is a downer.
Preparation is easily fixed by Quick Study, but maybe I look a little too much into it.
The real question here is, why even bother playing a Sorcerer when the Blood Arcanist exists?They might want the feats and bonus spells. If they plan to be binding outsiders a sorcerer is more likely to have a higher charisma making the task easier. Arcanist also still have to prepare spells, and that is one reason to avoid an arcanist and a wizard.
While I can get the sentiment, you can easily make the Feats up with the Metamagic Exploits, Potent Magic for Spell Focus, Dimensional Slide for mobility (versus the ever present Nimble Moves) and a higher Int to offset the Skill Focus feat thats generally in the pool.
I suppose Bonus Spells from the Bloodline is a decent reason, though being stuck to Charisma again is a downer.
Preparation is easily fixed by Quick Study, but maybe I look a little too much into it.
Those abilities may not replace the feats of the specific bloodline.
If you are asking from an optimization point of view then the arcanist is a better class in my opinion, even without that archeytpe. Otherwise it all boils down to what the player wants specifically for that build.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The real question here is, why even bother playing a Sorcerer when the Blood Arcanist exists?
Because the Mongrel Mage Sorcerer is so cool!
Mongrel Mage is actually broken, and not in a good way. Yes, it lets you use your Mongrel Reservoir to activate Bloodline Powers at your full Sorcerer level, choosing powers of level that goes up with yours . . . Until you get to 7th level. No Bloodline has a 7th level Bloodline Power! The next Bloodline Power in any Bloodline is at level 9, and the next one after that is at level 15, which Mongrel Mage doesn't even address until you get to level 20. It also takes away Bloodline Spells, and then consumes the (admittedly usually not great) Bloodline feats to get them back in weirdly bunched intervals.
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While there has been some power creep, arcane casters have had incredible power potential since day one. I think at this point it's basically the responsibility of the players to try not to break the game.
Mongrel Mage is actually broken, and not in a good way. Yes, it lets you use your Mongrel Reservoir to activate Bloodline Powers at your full Sorcerer level, choosing powers of level that goes up with yours . . . Until you get to 7th level. No Bloodline has a 7th level Bloodline Power! The next Bloodline Power in any Bloodline is at level 9, and the next one after that is at level 15, which Mongrel Mage doesn't even address until you get to level 20. It also takes away Bloodline Spells, and then consumes the (admittedly usually not great) Bloodline feats to get them back in weirdly bunched intervals.
Its pretty obvious that that ability comes online at 9th and its hardly a deal breaker.
You get to switch your Bloodline Arcana from day to day and get to swap out your bloodline spells! If thats not awesome I guess I dont know what is.
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Let me just state that this argument is silly.
Well-played sorcerers and well-played wizards (and arcanists too) both kick ass, but in different ways. I love sorcerers because I love spontaneous casting and charisma and social skills. Mnemonic vestment, wands and scrolls fill my weak spots.
All the arcane casters are great. This argument is old. The thing to remember is that each has different strengths that you can build towards, and different weaknesses that you can shore up.
Vive la difference!
Hmm
Since a lot of people here seem to be really good at this, how do you think the balance would be for giving sorcerers bloodline spells 1/day the level before they get access to the equivalent spell (bumping it back two levels from where it is, to where wizards get access to that level of spell)?
Also, for all you wizards and especially Thassilonian Specialists, what schools do you eschew? I have a hard time picking, though Necromancy is usually one of them (though it has some really useful spells, like spectral hand and false life)
That would be a huge boost in power for sorcerers. I would move them forward 1 level, so that 2nd is less of a dead level, and sorcs always get at least two spells of a given level to cast.
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That would be a huge boost in power for sorcerers. I would move them forward 1 level, so that 2nd is less of a dead level, and sorcs always get at least two spells of a given level to cast.
I do this and give them 4 skill points per level and a couple of Class skills (Knowledge-Local and Performance).
Works pretty well in my experience.
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The real question here is, why even bother playing a Sorcerer when the Blood Arcanist exists?Because the Mongrel Mage Sorcerer is so cool!
And also Razmiran Priest. I played this in a short campaign before I started forum browsing and catching onto good class options, so man was I surprised to feel so powerful. I did abuse the costly material component work around without really even realizing it, which helped.
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I prefer wizards, because prepared spellcasting, you can prepare stuff to suit the day. Like if the table has no divine caster, you're going underwater for a jaunt, you can just go get a waterbreathing up. Facing a red dragon? Communal resist energy from a reach rod. Standard action. High int gives you more skills, and an excuse to yell at the party, beat that skeleton with a stick, not a sword.
With clever wordplay/bruising intellect/student of philosophy, wizards can be the party face. They have more skill points to burn too.
I'm happy not to be the party face. Enough people can't understand me when I get excited anyway(It's in part an accent problem, and also I'm not allowed to make too much noise where I play). Plus, I don't talk crap well on the fly.
Since a lot of people here seem to be really good at this, how do you think the balance would be for giving sorcerers bloodline spells 1/day the level before they get access to the equivalent spell (bumping it back two levels from where it is, to where wizards get access to that level of spell)?
Also, for all you wizards and especially Thassilonian Specialists, what schools do you eschew? I have a hard time picking, though Necromancy is usually one of them (though it has some really useful spells, like spectral hand and false life)
It wouldn't really matter. The player's effectiveness would only marginally increase.
As a wizard I tend to sacrifice the enchantment and illusion schools, but I still prefer sorcs because I have more fun with them.
Mongrel Mage is actually broken, and not in a good way. Yes, it lets you use your Mongrel Reservoir to activate Bloodline Powers at your full Sorcerer level, choosing powers of level that goes up with yours . . . Until you get to 7th level. No Bloodline has a 7th level Bloodline Power! The next Bloodline Power in any Bloodline is at level 9, and the next one after that is at level 15, which Mongrel Mage doesn't even address until you get to level 20. It also takes away Bloodline Spells, and then consumes the (admittedly usually not great) Bloodline feats to get them back in weirdly bunched intervals.
Its pretty obvious that that ability comes online at 9th and its hardly a deal breaker.
You get to switch your Bloodline Arcana from day to day and get to swap out your bloodline spells! If thats not awesome I guess I dont know what is.
I don't feel safe playing something that has been so poorly thought out that it wasn't even proofread at a basic level.
Lol, i read that guide and my first thought was "just build a witch", battlefield control, buffs and debuffs, sounds like a witch's territory. The witch can't put out damage, but it doesn't matter when everything has been hexed to sleep and you're just coupe de gracing all day with a greataxe.
Your best source of advice for starting out as a wizard is Treantmont's Guide to Pathfinder's Wizard: Being a God. Understanding how the spells work, particularly how battlefield control works and how much buffing helps and debuffing hurts, is the real key to playing a wizard.
When Treantmonk wrote that guide, there were no Witches.
So what I'm kind of getting from this is there is nothing that makes a sorcerer better than a wizard.
Razmiran Priest archetype does provided you make full use of it. Beyond that not really.
1 use is not no use.
In wrath of the righteous, mythic gives a huge edge to sorcerers in that you can spend a mythic point to cast any wizard spell - so sorcerer's get wizard versatility. I played a mystic theurge in that AP as a sorcerer/oracle and had to reign back my character to not hog the spotlight.
In regular games, I still prefer sorcerers over wizards because the flexibility of not picking your spells each day means you can cast 20 fireballs in one day or cast 20 glitterdust, etc.
As a wizard, you have to pick and choose what you can cast in a battle, especially early in the day; often choosing to not use an optimal spell for an encounter, because you want to save it for a more important encounter.
Because of this, I think it takes more skill to build and play a wizard well than a sorcerer.
Reverse actually. It takes more skill to play a Sorcerer, because if you make poor choices in your spells, you become incredibly weak. A Wizard can easily fix this issue at the next town. And the flexibility of knowing more spells is superior and helps to make Wizards easier to play.
Reverse actually. It takes more skill to play a Sorcerer, because if you make poor choices in your spells, you become incredibly weak. A Wizard can easily fix this issue at the next town. And the flexibility of knowing more spells is superior and helps to make Wizards easier to play.In wrath of the righteous, mythic gives a huge edge to sorcerers in that you can spend a mythic point to cast any wizard spell - so sorcerer's get wizard versatility. I played a mystic theurge in that AP as a sorcerer/oracle and had to reign back my character to not hog the spotlight.
In regular games, I still prefer sorcerers over wizards because the flexibility of not picking your spells each day means you can cast 20 fireballs in one day or cast 20 glitterdust, etc.
As a wizard, you have to pick and choose what you can cast in a battle, especially early in the day; often choosing to not use an optimal spell for an encounter, because you want to save it for a more important encounter.
Because of this, I think it takes more skill to build and play a wizard well than a sorcerer.
It's not rocket science to pick useful sorcerer spells if you spend time making spell selections.
If you have that down, I stand by my assertion that picking the right feats and spell selection as a wizard is more difficult than playing a sorcerer effectively.
But the same is true of the Wizard. It's not rocket science to make good preparations at the start of the day and easier on you since you can change them the next day.
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I can think of a reason to go sorc instead of wiz. Like if the campaign involves lots of water crossings/underwater stuff, of too low level for extradimensional storage(I.e handy haversacks), and no waterproof inks then yes. In fact please steer clear of any class that uses spell books/formulae books. Its the water and the ink running, you know?
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For those who dislike some of the first level Bloodline powers, I'd recommend a look at the Bloodline Familiar option in the Familiar Folio. An Abyssal Bloodline cat Familiar with the Mauler Familiar archetype looks interesting, for example (1d6/1d6/1d8 natural attacks when it gets the Battle Form feature at level 3) for those looking for an arcane 'combat pet', or a Bloodline Familiar with the Sage archetype for those wishing to make up for the Sorcerer's lack of Knowledge skills (compared with a Wizard, that is).
Generally I find Sorcerers better specialist casters, due to certain of the Bloodline Arcana (if you stack the bonuses with Feat and Trait bonuses and the like). That's not to suggest they can't step outside their particular specialty of course (and no opposition school penalties either) and they usually only need a couple of key spells to fulfill that role.
As for Sorcerers and Intelligence... I don't think I've created a Sorcerer with less than 13 Intelligence since Ultimate Magic came out - the Spell Specialization Feat is an absolute must for most of my Sorcerer builds (works best on blasters, of course, as does everything based on increased caster level).
On the other hand, there are lots of options for giving Wizards spontaneous or pseudo-spontaneous casting these days (and everyone can get Bloodline powers with some Feats now), so the gaps between the classes are really quite blurred.
IMHO, of course.
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Oh, and slightly off-topic, but somewhere waaay upthread there was an opinion that few Sorcerers would take Feather Fall. Whilst I'd not suggest taking it as one of your first spells known, it's an absolutely brilliant spell for Sorcerers to take - just remember that it's an immediate action to cast and works on objects as well as creatures and you should see how it can be a life-saver against many types of traps or natural hazards (anything involving stuff falling towards you, really)... plus defending against people who've taught their pet bird the 'bombard' trick...
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Derek - sorry to burst your bubble, a sorcerer starts with only 2 spells known per day. Lets assume you pick mage armor and magic missile, since shield is too short duration to do jack.
Most sorcerers won't have a str score of more then 10 (unless doing DD route, which is more unorthodox), so you get to do 4 magic missiles per day, for 1d4+1, if you don't use mage armor? How...useful. Considering acid splash does 1d3+1 (once you use adventurers armory), and you can spam it unlimited number of times.
Mage armor lasts for an hour. Unless you don't need to travel anywhere, you won't be able to hold it up for long. The best defence for sorcerers, really at low levels is to find someone to hide behind.
Also, usually the fighter, if not the rogue, is the one who trips the traps, so it shouldn't be you having to take the pit. The fighter has the hp for it, the rogue will probably make his reflex save and not fall in. The use of featherfall to prevent bombard is also not allowed.
This spell has no special effect on ranged weapons unless they are falling quite a distance. If the spell is cast on a falling item, the object does half normal damage based on its weight, with no bonus for the height of the drop.
Since alchemist fires and the lot have like a 10 feet range increment, it's definitely not going to be falling that "quite a distance" and so the spell will have no effect.
As mentioned before, one of the best early spell's is color spray, which requires you being fairly close to melee.
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Sorcs and Wizards are very different despite sharing the same spell list. I would say that Wizards are easier to play at low levels (1-5) but after that point Sorcs really begin to shine. At higher levels the ability to cast spontaneously is a huge benefit in both preserving and making the most of your spell slots. Wizards and Sorcs also complement each other amazingly well and a high level party will find that there is not much that their Wizard-Sorc or Sorc-Wizard duo cannot accomplish.