Why choose a wizard over a sorcerer?


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I'm looking at the primary spell casting classes and I can't seem to figure out when you would actually want to be a wizard instead of a sorcerer. Whenever I've played with Wizards they mostly sit back and shoot with a crossbow until they can afford an attack wand (such as magic missile), then they use the wand. They rarely cast their own spells, because they don't have very many cast's per day, especially compared to a sorcerer.

I've heard the argument that a wizard knowing more spells makes them better prepared, and I don't buy it. If you know what's coming and know what type of spells to prepare, then a sorcerer will just buy a couple of scrolls and be just as prepared. If you don't know what's coming and which spells to prepare than a sorcerer is more prepared because he can cast his spells with more flexibility than a wizard. Because he's not tied to exactly what he prepared, he can use all of his castings on the same spell if it's useful.

Also if you like familiars (and who doesn't) a sorcerer can just take the arcane bloodline. I think bloodline's vs arcane schools are fairly equal, neither one giving a decided advantage to the other.

I'm hoping to learn something new about casting from you guys in this discussion. I've mostly played melee'ers and skill monkeys in pathfinder. Tried Witch once and just trolled the living hell out of the GM with it, because hex's are hilarious.


lv1 sorcerer has 3 wizard has 1 and 1 from school. sorcerer +1
lv2 sorcerer has 4 wizard has 2 and 1 from school. sorcerer +1
lv3 sorcerer has 5 wizard has 2+1 and 1+1. equal and wizard has Higher level spells

lv4 sorcerer has 6 and 3 wizard has 3+1 and 2+1. sorcerer +2
lv5 sorcerer has 6 and 4 wizard has 3+1 and 2+1 and 1+1. sorcerer +1

So the wizard isn't down a ton on spells per day and will get high leveled spells sooner.

Grand Lodge

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I assumed this question was the other way around, I think of Wizards as significantly stronger than Sorcerers. Sorcerers get one more spell per day for each spell level than a specialist Wizard. But half the time, they're a full spell level behind the Wizard.

Compare Sorc 5 and Wizard 5 with a 16 primary stat:
Sorcerer - 6-0/7-1/5-2
Wizard - 5-0/5-1/4-2/3-3

Both have 12 1-3rd level spells per day, but the Wizard's getting a bunch of 3rd level spells. That extra spell level is a huge power bump, and half the time the Sorcerer is behind.


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Statboy wrote:


I've heard the argument that a wizard knowing more spells makes them better prepared, and I don't buy it. If you know what's coming and know what type of spells to prepare, then a sorcerer will just buy a couple of scrolls and be just as prepared. If you don't know what's coming and which spells to prepare than a sorcerer is more prepared because he can cast his spells with more flexibility than a wizard. Because he's not tied to exactly what he prepared, he can use all of his castings on the same spell if it's useful.

You can't always buy your way out of every problem. And you're not always one day out of a city. Wizards being int casters and having all knowledge skills as class skills will generally be more knowledegable and benefit their party about the things they need to know about the monsters they face. They also get access to higher level spells sooner, that's not an insignificant advantage. When I play wizards I usually go for the arcane bond. Having access to any of my spellbook spells once per day, is a handy pull something out of your hat trick.

It's more than just the spells, it's the style of play as well. What most people forget is that despite sharing the same spell list, the two classes are very different, and require different approaches.

I enjoy playing both classes... The characters I make for either tend to be very different. One's Jean Grey... the other's Professor X.


Well, you've hit on one of several reasons many people have to play a wizard: the number of spells known. The second, and probably most important one, is that wizards gain access to higher level spells one level before sorcerers do. Third, Wizards use Intelligence rather than Charisma as their castingstat; Intelligence is widely regarded as the obviously superior stat. Fourth, and this is just a belief of mine, many people find the image of the wizard more appealing.

Finally, the wizard really is more flexible than the sorceror. Your argument to the contrary isn't without merit but you have to admit its just worse than the wizard. Either the wizard prepares it or scribes the scroll himself, either way its cheaper than the sorcerors method (and more reliable!). Another important aspect to the wizards flexibility is that he isn't required to prepare all of his spells at once. So, when/if the situation comes for something he didn't know about in advance the wizard can adapt on the fly.

Extra-finally! (because wizards can do that!) Wizards win all arguments on the internet because of this guy schrodinger and his hypothetical cat, box and poison.

Really though, Sorcerers are very powerful even without the wizards many benefits and there is no reason why you shouldn't play one (or the other really). Many people enjoy the sorcerer precisely because it removes preparation, because they don't like merlin or gandalf, because they want to be charismtic or because they want to abuse the Human FCB ;)


Chess Pwn wrote:


So the wizard isn't down a ton on spells per day and will get high leveled spells sooner.

I actually didn't notice that the sorcerer gets it's next level spells later. That actually seems to even them out. I was thinking they advanced spell levels at the same time, the sorcerer just always got to cast more often and didn't have to prepare.

Liberty's Edge

This is why people say it's up to preference. I personally enjoy the sorcerer much more than the wizard, but I do have to say that the wizard is a bit stronger.

Sure, wizards don't get the neat and sometimes absolutely incredible powers that sorcerers get with their bloodlines, but they get metagame-4-free passes in the form of all knowledge skills, stronger spells sooner, and a wider variety to choose from.

They're really close to one another in power, having played both, but I think the wizard wins out in overall versatility.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Statboy wrote:


I've heard the argument that a wizard knowing more spells makes them better prepared, and I don't buy it. If you know what's coming and know what type of spells to prepare, then a sorcerer will just buy a couple of scrolls and be just as prepared. If you don't know what's coming and which spells to prepare than a sorcerer is more prepared because he can cast his spells with more flexibility than a wizard. Because he's not tied to exactly what he prepared, he can use all of his castings on the same spell if it's useful.

While it's true a sorcerer can spam his spells if he needs to (something that makes him pretty useful in a fight if he has the right spells), the wizard has no ultimate limit to the spells he can know. As long as he's willing to expand his spellbook, he can pick up any spells - even the ones that have really focused utility. Very few sorcerers will bother to do that.

Also, wizards can leave spell slots open and fill them, given a little bit of time, on the fly. Suppose the PCs run into a bit of text written on the wall in a language nobody knows. A wizard with comprehend languages in his spellbook, sufficient time, and a 1st level slot deliberately left open can sit down with his spellbook, prep the spell, and cast it never knowing he needed to prepare it at the beginning of the day.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:


You can't always buy your way out of every problem. And you're not always one day out of a city.

I get that, but the amount of times that has come up compared to the amount of times that we don't know what to prepare for is skewed in favor no knowing what to be prepared for. Sorcerer wins not knowing what to be prepared for, because unprepared means more flexibility in your casting.


CN_Minus wrote:

This is why people say it's up to preference. I personally enjoy the sorcerer much more than the wizard, but I do have to say that the wizard is a bit stronger.

Sure, wizards don't get the neat and sometimes absolutely incredible powers that sorcerers get with their bloodlines, but they get metagame-4-free passes in the form of all knowledge skills, stronger spells sooner, and a wider variety to choose from.

They're really close to one another in power, having played both, but I think the wizard wins out in overall versatility.

Play style matters much in these discussions. I know people who get option paralysis in trying to manage the spell lists of a prepared caster. Spontaneous casters like sorcerers and oracles work better for them.

Others are obsessive planners, for them the batman-like approach of a wizard is the appeal.

Thing is...the most important thing is that the OP has been asking the wrong question from the start.

Neither of these classes is a "better" class than the other. What each represents is a package of character tools. Some people will use both toolboxes, choosing one or the other by whim or what they're looking for a path to walk. Others will have a distinct preference by style. WOTC and Paizo built these classes to accommodate both.

Sovereign Court

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Statboy,

Sounds like you play lots of low-level stuff. When you start getting into levels 7+ the difference between Wizard and Sorcerer is palpable. Moreover, the conservation of spell slots becomes less of a priority, as combat rounds/day stop exceeding your spell slots. There have been breakdowns of spells per level per day.

One interesting thing for you to consider is the Thassilonian specialist archetype, which splits a bit of the difference between sorcerer and wizard. You trade knowledge of 2 schools for +1 school slot per level. This nets more spells/day than sorcerer, but with limited schools.

Additionally, at higher levels the power of an increased spell level outstrips the power of more spell slots. At all the odd levels the wizard will have a significant power advantage over the sorcerer. At even levels the increased spells known may or may not exceed the value of extra slots, depending on time to prepare.

When I have played wizards in the past, I often change my spells prepared depending on the general activities (down-time, travel, combat intensive, exploring). If there is time to study, prepare, or plan for encounters I have specifically studied items.

Your point about sorcerer having the same options is nuanced. While the time to prepare can provide both with the ability to get scrolls, the sorcerer will have to invest significantly more money or effort to gain that flexibility. Furthermore, a sorcerer will always be anchored to their spells known, driving long-term choices instead of level-specific choices.

Sleep is a great spell... until 3rd level.
Color spray is an awesome spell... until 3rd level.
Arcane Sight is too specific a buff spell at 8th level, but an afterthought at 14th level.
Would a sorcerer take fly and overland flight? At 10th level those spells would account for 14% of the L1 and higher spells.

You should try both at levels 7+, and decide for your self if you can feel the difference. :-)


I cannot believe I forgot this one! Metamagic! Wizards don't take as long as sorcerers do when casting metamagic'ed up spells!


Bill Dunn wrote:


Also, wizards can leave spell slots open and fill them, given a little bit of time, on the fly. Suppose the PCs run into a bit of text written on the wall in a language nobody knows. A wizard with comprehend languages in his spellbook, sufficient time, and a 1st level slot deliberately left open can sit down with his spellbook, prep the spell, and cast it never knowing he needed to prepare it at the beginning of the day.

That is something I hadn't thought of, definitely a good utility.


Statboy wrote:
I'm looking at the primary spell casting classes and I can't seem to figure out when you would actually want to be a wizard instead of a sorcerer. Whenever I've played with Wizards they mostly sit back and shoot with a crossbow until they can afford an attack wand (such as magic missile), then they use the wand. They rarely cast their own spells, because they don't have very many cast's per day, especially compared to a sorcerer.

I don't know why a wizard would bother with a crossbow instead of just using acid splash. Yeah, 1d3 is smaller than 1d6 but it's a touch attack and you don't have to waste probably 7 pounds of your very limited encumbrance on the weapon and bolts. That said, past level like 3 you're rarely going to use them.

Attack wands aren't a very good general purpose item for a wizard. They're nice in a pinch (and nearly every wizard/sorcerer I use has one) but they're certainly not your go-to.

Your best source of advice for starting out as a wizard is Treantmont's Guide to Pathfinder's Wizard: Being a God. Understanding how the spells work, particularly how battlefield control works and how much buffing helps and debuffing hurts, is the real key to playing a wizard.


Statboy wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:


You can't always buy your way out of every problem. And you're not always one day out of a city.
I get that, but the amount of times that has come up compared to the amount of times that we don't know what to prepare for is skewed in favor no knowing what to be prepared for. Sorcerer wins not knowing what to be prepared for, because unprepared means more flexibility in your casting.

You need to use your skills more. More stealth and more gather information to figure out what you're getting into before you get there. Lots of good wizard spells to help these things out that you're unlikely to have as a sorcerer.


Claire Lee-O'Blivyus wrote:


One interesting thing for you to consider is the Thassilonian specialist archetype, which splits a bit of the difference between sorcerer and wizard. You trade knowledge of 2 schools for +1 school slot per level. This nets more spells/day than sorcerer, but with limited schools.

I don't think i've played past level 15, level 8-10 is more the usual. That archetype looks nice though.

Liberty's Edge

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Play style matters much in these discussions. I know people who get option paralysis in trying to manage the spell lists of a prepared caster. Spontaneous casters like sorcerers and oracles work better for them.

Others are obsessive planners, for them the batman-like approach of a wizard is the appeal.

Thing is...the most important thing is that the OP has been asking the wrong question from the start.

Neither of these classes is a "better" class than the other. What each represents is a package of character tools. Some people will use both toolboxes, choosing one or the other by whim or what they're looking for a path to walk. Others will have a distinct preference by style. WOTC and Paizo built these classes to accommodate both.

I find this to be true with everyone I've ever played with. Many of the more casual players who get together once every few weeks will typically prefer the sorcerer, and those that have time to spare may drift towards the wizard. I see a lot of the people who enjoy the power of non-combat interaction choosing sorcerers as well.

When it comes down to it, it's not really what's "more powerful", as both of these classes are incredibly strong. When you look at the benefits and drawbacks of both classes they tend to really even out.


CN_Minus wrote:
When it comes down to it, it's not really what's "more powerful", as both of these classes are incredibly strong. When you look at the benefits and drawbacks of both classes they tend to really even out.

Oh, absolutely. If you play them right, there's a reason that people talk about the martial/caster disparity.


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I prefer sorcerers because I don't have to guess the number of times I will need each spell per day.

The spells know issue is easily overcome with magic vestments and scrolls or with pages of spell knowledge.


Arcane Addict wrote:
Third, Wizards use Intelligence rather than Charisma as their castingstat; Intelligence is widely regarded as the obviously superior stat.

Sorcerers do have an option to use Intelligence or Wisdom for casting.


Chess Pwn wrote:

lv1 sorcerer has 3 wizard has 1 and 1 from school. sorcerer +1

lv2 sorcerer has 4 wizard has 2 and 1 from school. sorcerer +1
lv3 sorcerer has 5 wizard has 2+1 and 1+1. equal and wizard has Higher level spells

lv4 sorcerer has 6 and 3 wizard has 3+1 and 2+1. sorcerer +2
lv5 sorcerer has 6 and 4 wizard has 3+1 and 2+1 and 1+1. sorcerer +1

So the wizard isn't down a ton on spells per day and will get high leveled spells sooner.

Heck the Thassilonian Specialist will have even more spells most of the time.


Charisma has a number of powerful exploits. Noble Scion of War for Initiative and Bestow Grace wands for ridiculous saves are two of the best.


MeanMutton wrote:


Your best source of advice for starting out as a wizard is Treantmont's Guide to Pathfinder's Wizard: Being a God. Understanding how the spells work, particularly how battlefield control works and how much buffing helps and debuffing hurts, is the real key to playing a wizard.

Lol, i read that guide and my first thought was "just build a witch", battlefield control, buffs and debuffs, sounds like a witch's territory. The witch can't put out damage, but it doesn't matter when everything has been hexed to sleep and you're just coupe de gracing all day with a greataxe.

Scarab Sages

Also, on the subject of spells/day: people keep forgetting that Wizards get "Scribe Scroll" right off the bat, and low-level scrolls are cheap to make. You can easily scribe a handful out of your starting gold.

Any day your Wizard is not spending all day adventuring, he should be scribing scrolls to extend his spellcasting abilities. By 5th level, he should start crafting wands for things like Magic Missile and Mage Armor that he uses every day. By 9th level he probably has enough spells to get him through even an intense day, but he can still have a few extra castings of his high level spells via scrolls.

Scarab Sages

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Benifits of wizards of sorcerer:

1) Large number of spells known: I know you mentioned this, but think about it the other way around. As a wizard, it's no problem to memorize completely different spell load outs depending on where you're going. So if you have prior knowledge that you will be facing elementals, prepare a few dismissals. Lots of trolls? Go heavy on fire. True, if you are caught with your pants down it's the same as a sorcerer, but that added bit of versatility can really help.

2) large number of spells known part 2: as a wizard, you have no problem reserving a spell slot for, say, remove curse, JUST IN CASE. Chances are you won't NEED it, but it's one spell slot amongst a lot that you have once you reach, say, level 10. The option is MUCH less appealing if you are a sorcerer, as it takes up one of the few 3rd level spells you know, and because that spell requires a caster level check, a scroll is going to only add 5 to the roll (minimum caster level).

3) Int vs charisma. Charisma for a sorcerer is less useful than Int for a wizard. As each is a primary casting stat, that is a wash, so what does Int get you over chr? High INT nets you additional skills/level, and it boosts the skills that you will most likely be using, spellcraft, knowledge-arcana, so on. Sorcerers get the same measly 2 skills/level, but without high int, they have very few skills a level, and the only skill that wich they stereotypically need that chr helps is UMD.

4) earlier access to spells. I know it's only 1 level, but man, at early levels, waiting to hit level4 for that first second level spell can really hurt.

Now, sorcs aren't BAD, and have plenty of advantages over wizards, however, there are also advantages of wizards over sorcs.


graystone wrote:
Arcane Addict wrote:
Third, Wizards use Intelligence rather than Charisma as their castingstat; Intelligence is widely regarded as the obviously superior stat.
Sorcerers do have an option to use Intelligence or Wisdom for casting.

True! But, really, if we were to keep all the options in mind at all times these discussions would become rather tedious rather quick :p

Besides, and this is more of a personal 'complaint' than anything else, I dislike how these options are entangled into certain bloodlines (as is the familiar) (although, to be more tedious, there are some expanded options for that now ;)). Although I feel in these particular instances it makes sense flavorwise I would prefer if it were separated from bloodlines.
Alternatively, give Wizards a spontaneous casting option XD

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As others have said, wizards have nearly unmatchable flexibility. I'm currently playing a Gnomish wizard in PFS, and every scenario I play I see about adding up to 4 new spells into my spellbook. At low levels, he has his issues, but as I get higher level I am going to start building various spell lists for what I prepare for different hypothetical scenarios, and I get to pick up the oddball spells, considering I took an Arcane Bond with an item, I may only get one spontaneous spell a day, but it's far better than a sorcerer's. Just as one example, I don't think many sorcerers are going to choose Feather Fall, but my wizard can use his wand (bonded item) to cast it once per day, without preparing, in case I need to jump down somewhere (or more likely Expeditious Retreat, short legs aren't good for pulling a Sir Robin)

Personally, I see Sorcerers as perfect for building a themed caster, while a Wizard is better for being a generalist.

Liberty's Edge

Arcane Addict wrote:
Alternatively, give Wizards a spontaneous casting option XD

You mean the arcanist? lol


MichaelCullen wrote:
Charisma has a number of powerful exploits. Noble Scion of War for Initiative and Bestow Grace wands for ridiculous saves are two of the best.

A 1 level oracle dip gets you use Chaisma to AC and Ref saves. Extra revelations does the same for all Knowledge checks. The ability use cleric spell items doesn't hurt either.

Steadfast Personality lets you use Cha for will saves.


CN_Minus wrote:
Arcane Addict wrote:
Alternatively, give Wizards a spontaneous casting option XD
You mean the arcanist? lol

Exactly! Now that was one hell of a fantastic idea! My favorite class! (But still weaker than the wizard :p)


There's two other things the wizard has over the sorceror. One is he's a prepared caster. I state this because this means he has access to a magic item called Pearls of Power, which with a single one of each level, he is essentially on par with the sorceror for the most part. And given their inexpensive nature for the lower levels, which are the spells you want to cast the most of (Especially level 3 and 4), they can get away with preparing a single spell they want to cast a lot of, and leave the rest for other areas.

The other thing is class features. This has been a well known mistake Paizo has admitted to, but has never fixed is that Sorcerors get their bloodline spells later than wizards. While they have a larger, if specific, range of bonus feats, they get them less often. They get two more abilities as they level compared to the wizard, but how useful they are is very heavily dependent on the campaign and the bloodline. Meanwhile a Wizard can easily get crafting feats (Craft Wonderous being super popular), metamagics, spell mastery if they want, or they can trade them for arcane discoveries.

The sorceror is far from a bad class. He's just second best is all. Nothing wrong with playing that, but when you know the inns and outs of the wizard, the effects definitely can be felt. That said, there's a few specific builds that sorcerors do better than wizards. And one you want one level of sorc for then the rest wizard.


I generally play wizard over sorcerer because they are better crafters. With the crafting, they get item creation feats as bonus feats, are int based so have better spellcraft, and they can know not only all the sorcerer/wizard spells for their crafting, but with archetypes they can cast all bard/cleric/druid spells as well.

Arcane discoveries is also a big draw because of Truenaming being so cool.


graystone wrote:
Arcane Addict wrote:
Third, Wizards use Intelligence rather than Charisma as their castingstat; Intelligence is widely regarded as the obviously superior stat.
Sorcerers do have an option to use Intelligence or Wisdom for casting.

To do so they have to basically give up their bloodline arcana, and it locks them into a specific bloodline.


Icehawk wrote:

There's two other things the wizard has over the sorceror. One is he's a prepared caster. I state this because this means he has access to a magic item called Pearls of Power, which with a single one of each level, he is essentially on par with the sorceror for the most part. And given their inexpensive nature for the lower levels, which are the spells you want to cast the most of (Especially level 3 and 4), they can get away with preparing a single spell they want to cast a lot of, and leave the rest for other areas.

Spontanious casters get Runestones though which is pretty much the same thing. Cast a spell of level-X once per day without buring a slot. Yes they cost more than the pearls, but they are more flexible in that they let you flat out buy extra spell slots to burn on any spell known.


Greylurker wrote:
Icehawk wrote:

There's two other things the wizard has over the sorceror. One is he's a prepared caster. I state this because this means he has access to a magic item called Pearls of Power, which with a single one of each level, he is essentially on par with the sorceror for the most part. And given their inexpensive nature for the lower levels, which are the spells you want to cast the most of (Especially level 3 and 4), they can get away with preparing a single spell they want to cast a lot of, and leave the rest for other areas.

Spontanious casters get Runestones though which is pretty much the same thing. Cast a spell of level-X once per day without buring a slot. Yes they cost more than the pearls, but they are more flexible in that they let you flat out buy extra spell slots to burn on any spell known.

Isn't that what Pearls do? Well, except that it's even more flexible for wizards since they can have more spells of a given level prepared on any given day than the sorcerer has spells known?

An 8th level wizard (assuming the likely specialization and 16+ int) will have up to 5 3rd level spells prepared, any of which he can recall with the proper pearl. The Pearl lets him keep his fliexibility by not needing to double up on any spell he might want more than once.
An 8th level sorcerer will only have 2 3rd level spells known, so she can only use the Runestone to cast one of those 2 one more time.

Similar thing, but more useful to the wizard.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I like both equally, though there is a different playstyle to both. Apples and oranges, both are awesome, yet are different from each other. You just have to know the strengths and utilize them to the fullest.

Sorcerers tend to be better group support casters, while wizards tend to be better specialists (when prepared for the task).

Most have a preference for one over the other, and it is usually because the player either feels that changing spell lists (wizard), or being able to spam a single spell on the fly (sorcerer) is more "free" than the other.


412294 wrote:
graystone wrote:
Arcane Addict wrote:
Third, Wizards use Intelligence rather than Charisma as their castingstat; Intelligence is widely regarded as the obviously superior stat.
Sorcerers do have an option to use Intelligence or Wisdom for casting.
To do so they have to basically give up their bloodline arcana, and it locks them into a specific bloodline.

And? I was pointing out #3 wasn't written in stone, not commenting on the relative usefulness of the options. The fact is that if someone thinks Intelligence is the obviously superior stat, that they can play a sorcerer using that stat.

Now I'll agree I'd rather have the option of casting stats not be tied to bloodline but I often don't get what I'd rather see the game do.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A quick look through here and I didn't see one of the more subtle aspects of wizards over sorcerers. Freee scribe scroll feat at first level. This cuts down on the reliance of found treasures and purchased items. Have a utility spell you like to keep handy but don't want to waste a spell slot on? Spend some down time and scroll it. Want to have a back-up blast of some sort (say lightning bolt instead of the fireball you memorize standard), write one on a scroll.

Further, free item creation or metamagic feats as a wizard mean that either your base spells have a greater level of versatility through metamagics (Yes, bloodlines can grant specific feats at specific levels) or you have a steady manner of making/recharging whatever item you like.

The main advantage my players like from the sorcerer is the limited number of spells. To them it is easier to have a limited list rather than thinking about what spells to memorize every day/adventure/whatever.


My Oracle has just reached 10th level. I get one 5th level spell, which I can cast 3 times per day (plus bonus casting from having a high stat). Just one spell.
My party wants Breath of Life, so most of the time I'll be using my 5th level slots for more 4th level spells!

My favoured class bonus gets me an extra 4th level spell known, taking that up to 3. It's very restricting, if those 3 spells aren't the ones I need, then I might be using 3rd level spells in those higher level slots, since I finally have sufficient 3rd level spells known to cover most options! Yes, I can (and have) buy Pages of Spell Knowledge, but when you want 5 or more of them of each level, the cost rapidly prevents getting other magic toys.

However, I have communal resist energy, so I can spam that granting everyone 20 pts of energy resistance vs all 4 types of energy. That's really useful and something that clerics (and Wizards) won't be able to do generally.

A sorceror vs a wizard: the wizard will have pretty much all the useful/interesting spells available, but not necessarily immediately - next day, or after filling an empty slot. The sorceror can cast the same spell repeatedly, but if that's not the right spell, he's as useless as a rogue (joke).

In combat, the sorceror will be more consistent and be able to blast (if that's what you want to do) more often. The rest of the time, the wizard will be able to solve problems and bypass difficulties. The reason that wizard is said to be the most powerful class? It's not because of combat damage, it's because they can change the situation/story to one they prefer more easily than any other class.


Arcane Addict wrote:
CN_Minus wrote:
Arcane Addict wrote:
Alternatively, give Wizards a spontaneous casting option XD
You mean the arcanist? lol
Exactly! Now that was one hell of a fantastic idea! My favorite class! (But still weaker than the wizard :p)

Arcanist has a higher floor than the Wizard, but probably a slightly lower ceiling, depending (though in either case, they're both still monstrously powerful, and the recent new options for Arcanist might push it completely ahead of Wizard). Arcanists are, however, generally equal to or better than a Wizard 60% of the time (the other 40% being the earlier spell level access levels).


Because a well played wizard has scrolls for days. He gets scribe scroll at level 1 and spends a good chunk of his wealth by level on learning new spells and scribing backup spells into scrolls. Obscuring mist is painfully situational, but the wizard has it ready on a scroll. Knock? Scroll. Mass Phantom steed? Scroll.

This means that at any given time a wizard should have a dozen ways out of a surprise, while the sorcerer has more fireballs.

Liberty's Edge

HowFortuitous wrote:

Because a well played wizard has scrolls for days. He gets scribe scroll at level 1 and spends a good chunk of his wealth by level on learning new spells and scribing backup spells into scrolls. Obscuring mist is painfully situational, but the wizard has it ready on a scroll. Knock? Scroll. Mass Phantom steed? Scroll.

This means that at any given time a wizard should have a dozen ways out of a surprise, while the sorcerer has more fireballs.

Because sorcerers, as everyone knows, are unable to purchase and use scrolls and wands.

But really, if everyone is going to extol the wizard class incessantly I think it's about time someone made a point about sorcerers.

Wizards are more flexible as far as have spells prepared for specific situations, but what happens if something happens that you don't expect? You can't sit there and prepare a spell every time a problem comes up. Meanwhile, if a sorcerer has the spell, she can pass it around the party so everyone has a solution. People also seem to think there's no way to increase your spells per day as a sorcerer when Runestones of Power exist. Sure they're twice as expensive, but they exist.

Now that we know you have essential scrolls for tasks that you won't be ready for with your limited spells, what does the wizard have over us in versatility? The answer here is, of course, that the wizard has access to the most situational spells that exist. So, wizards can solve the smallest, most obscure issues better than a sorcerer, hands down. Now we have wizard schools and bloodlines, of which the bloodlines are clearly a little bit more powerful. Where the wizard has void, divination, and conjuration, the sorcerer has fey, ghoul, umbral, arcane, sylvan, psychic, sage, and specific bloodlines for specific builds like orc or draconic. Can a wizard gain hide in plain sight? An animal companion? How about the ability to cast from multiple different stats? And god forbid your GM allows your poisoner to take the nanite bloodline VMC. Oh, and check out the daemon bloodline.

What about metamagic? I can hear some saying "wait, doesn't the wizard beat the sorcerer here?" The answer is, as usual, "sort of, a little bit". See, sorcerers can pick the spells they want meta'd whenever at the cost of action economy.This makes their spells take longer to cast than a wizard, if he knows what he wants meta'd already. That's if he does. Once again, a situation can come up (as they often do) that you didn't expect. Now what does a wizard do if he really needed a maximized fireball?

"Ok then, cyanide, what else does the sorcerer have?" Sure, I'd be glad to help! Social situations, which sometimes have more influence over a campaign than fights, are largely based off of charisma. If you want to make the senator give his vote to a bill that will later help your group, what do you do but talk him into it? Most high-ranking officials are going to be guarded at all times, with more than a few people present. Fighting your way in is counter-intuitive. This is where the sorcerer is going to edge out the wizard a bit by going in, lying to the guards, having the guards vouch for your lie to another set of guards, and eventually lying to the senator in an attempt to make him vote one way or another.

Now, none of this is to say the sorcerer is stronger than the wizard. I believe the wizard does actually edge out the sorcerer by a fraction, but for the most part they're on equal ground.

It was just annoying to hear all of the ways "wizards are better than sorcerers", as if it was an obvious, head-and-shoulders issue.


Venturing out a bit, but Rebirth Psychic does pretty well as the best of both worlds- lots of spells per day, but with one flexible spell known from off-list, Int-based with Cha as a secondary stat (leather armor or masterwork studded leather dropping Dex-reliance a bit), better class skills, and if the GM allows pulling from 4/9 or 6/9 lists for the flexible spell, you can get access to some spells a level ahead of wizards.


CN_Minus wrote:
Wizards are more flexible as far as have spells prepared for specific situations, but what happens if something happens that you don't expect? You can't sit there and prepare a spell every time a problem comes up.

You can't everytime, but then you aren't supposed to be adventuring by yourself either. Having a few surprise encounters you can't majorly participate in is better than having a single situation that your entire party can't overcome.

Liberty's Edge

Melkiador wrote:
CN_Minus wrote:
Wizards are more flexible as far as have spells prepared for specific situations, but what happens if something happens that you don't expect? You can't sit there and prepare a spell every time a problem comes up.
You can't everytime, but then you aren't supposed to be adventuring by yourself either. Having a few surprise encounters you can't majorly participate in is better than having a single situation that your entire party can't overcome.

Anytime you run into a situation that your party wouldn't be able to overcome without a wizard you can rest assured that the person who built the encounter has no idea what he's doing.


CN_Minus wrote:
Wizards are more flexible as far as have spells prepared for specific situations, but what happens if something happens that you don't expect? You can't sit there and prepare a spell every time a problem comes up.

That's the weirdest argument for me. That situation where the 5 different spells the wizard has prepared are useless, but the 2 the sorcerer has happen to be the perfect choice?

Possible, I suppose, if you prepped for one specific niche situation and ran into a completely different niche case. It's far more likely though the wizard will prepare at least some of the relatively generic spells that the sorcerer is relying on to cover all her needs. So while he may not be able to make use of all his spells in any given situation, he'll have something to fall back on.

And in the niche situations, the sorcerer may also find his spells don't apply.


I just eatz 'em for the arteecles, really I do!

Also, pokemonz feelings! Never greatzer feelingz than pickins up a new tricksies from the for-bid-den lores! You getz feelings of accomplicements for gatherins spells and Putin 'em in your spells-booker!

Liberty's Edge

thejeff wrote:
CN_Minus wrote:
Wizards are more flexible as far as have spells prepared for specific situations, but what happens if something happens that you don't expect? You can't sit there and prepare a spell every time a problem comes up.

That's the weirdest argument for me. That situation where the 5 different spells the wizard has prepared are useless, but the 2 the sorcerer has happen to be the perfect choice?

Possible, I suppose, if you prepped for one specific niche situation and ran into a completely different niche case. It's far more likely though the wizard will prepare at least some of the relatively generic spells that the sorcerer is relying on to cover all her needs. So while he may not be able to make use of all his spells in any given situation, he'll have something to fall back on.

And in the niche situations, the sorcerer may also find his spells don't apply.

Again, in niche situations you have scrolls... The really exceedingly niche situations are a wizards friend, but how important is something that comes up so little a sorcerer wouldn't have a scroll for it?

When you say wizards can prepare 5 spells and sorcerers can only prepare 2 you seem to imply wizards have access to more spells on hand. That's actually the opposite of the truth. If, as everyone suggests, you prepare a niche spell or two and leave a slot open, you actually have less versatility than a sorcerer... and the point wasn't that a sorcerer would have an answer, just that the two classes would be equal in being unable to solve a problem.

That said, some problems can only be solved by a sorcerer. Running from bulettes and come to a crevasse? Sorry, wizard, as weird as it sounds, didn't prepare fly 4 times. So, you're level 12 wizard wouldn't be able to help anyone but himself, but the level 7 sorcerer would.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
CN_Minus wrote:
That said, some problems can only be solved by a sorcerer. Running from bulettes and come to a crevasse? Sorry, wizard, as weird as it sounds, didn't prepare fly 4 times. So, you're level 12 wizard wouldn't be able to help anyone but himself, but the level 7 sorcerer would.

That's because the wizard had overland flight cast that morning and didn't need such a short term buff. But he did spend a slot on dimension door, so he grabs the whole party and pops them across that mundane barrier.


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Honestly the only issue Ive ever had as a wizard is on occassion I'll have several answers that arent quite perfect but still suitable regardless

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