Is it possible to roll Aqueous orb multiple times (in the same round) against creature that was succesfull with reflex save?
I mean could I reroll it over that creature again in the same round (as long as it has left some feets of movement)?
I yes, should I wait till the Orb will go over (which means at least 15 feets before returning) or could I bounce it (5 feet toward, than 5 back and then once again)?
The main usage will be with dazing metamagic.
I think it's possible to just wobble 5 feet over and over to force a ton of saves but it's approaching what some people would consider cheesy.
Dazing pushes it fully into un-fun-ness, but that has more to do with Dazing than it does Aqueous Orb.
I think it is cheesy only with dazing metamagic. Without it deals only 2d6 per bounce (reflex negates) and chance to engulf (if creature will not save the second Reflex). And Engulfed creatures have free Reflex save every turn to get out.
With dazing metamagic it starts to shine. It basically do the same think as persistent metamagic if GM allows returning only after rolling over. It doesn't allow spell resistance so bouncing it would be overpowered (in my opinion) but within RAW.
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"In the path" to me means:
-the orb has to leave the targets square completely and return.
-no back and forth 5' wobble (although a figure eight is fine)
Reasons:
5' wobble can create 12 saves per round (assuming they keep passing) against a single target in a round allowing up to 12d6 damage far exceeding the bounds of the spell intent and time concerns hogging table time by single player.
Grey_Mage – I am not sure I understand.
Would you allow (if orb starts adjacent to creature) to go forward 5 feet, then 5 feet backward, then 5 feet forward, then 5 feet backward, then 5 feet forward (total of 25 feet movement)?
Which means maximum of 3 saves if the creature is always successful?
1 save per round per spell is how I would rule it.
Caveat: I haven't checked the text of the spell yet. No time at the moment.
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Grey_Mage – I am not sure I understand.
Would you allow (if orb starts adjacent to creature) to go forward 5 feet, then 5 feet backward, then 5 feet forward, then 5 feet backward, then 5 feet forward (total of 25 feet movement)?
Which means maximum of 3 saves if the creature is always successful?
If a creature fails the first but succeeds on the second (repeatedly) = 6 saves in one turn. Sorry math is not my forte first thing in the morning :)
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From the spell text the orb can move 30' per round, and it is a move action to control that movement. So one limitation I would make would be that you can't take a second move action to move it again. Even though you have the action, the orb can only move 30' So that limits your wobble, which seems legal by raw, to 3 saves per round, 5' in (save), 5' out (no save), 5' in (save), 5' out (no save), 5' in (save), 5' out (no save).
They of course only applies if they don't fail a save, once engulfed they can't get multiple saves.
In a home game I would likely rule 1 save per round per creature.
Forcing multiple saves per round from a single spell, from a simple non-combined application, is so far from normal procedure that I would never consider it unless the spell explicitly requires it (which it doesn't). "In the path" then becomes a simple yes/no test, which is consistent with how similar spells work.
Thanks guys!
I agree with Cerulean Monsianta.
Manly-man teapot (or anybody else) – do you think that RAI is 1 save per round?
Because by forcing multiple saves for one target (theoretically up to 4 targets) means you cannot affect other creatures. That does not sound so overpowered for 3rd level spells.
Having now read the spell, I'd go along with that. Up to 3 saves, as long as the first ones are successfully saved.
It's probably better when used against multiple opponents.
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Since the escape from AO takes a full round and leaves them adjacent to the orb (3-6 more saves next round?) It seems overpowered indeed.
If you stay in the orb you take 2d6 but if you get out you can be subjected to 6d6 from 3 more saves?
I'm afraid RAI really seems once per round but admit I understand your argument based on the wording.
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Since the escape from AO takes a full round and leaves them adjacent to the orb (3-6 more saves next round?) It seems overpowered indeed.
If you stay in the orb you take 2d6 but if you get out you can be subjected to 6d6 from 3 more saves?
I'm afraid RAI really seems once per round but admit I understand your argument based on the wording.
Creatures within the orb may attempt a new Reflex save each round to escape into a random square adjacent to the aqueous orb.
No mention of the time needed for the save, so we should refer how saves work normally. They take no time and require no action.
Any creature in the path of the aqueous orb takes 2d6 points of nonlethal damage. A successful Reflex save negates this damage, but a large or smaller creature that fails its save must make a second save or be engulfed by the aqueous orb and carried along with it.
More debatable, but "in the path" isn't "in a square touched by aqueous orb". Path is the full area covered by the orb movement during a round. I would say that a creature must make a single save and is damaged once in a round. Not multiple times.
As for "in the path" argument: lets imagine hallway wide 10 feet which is turning right. Creature is standing in the corner. Aqueous orb is adjacent with the creature. Caster then moves the orb around the corner: it is over the creature after 1st 5 feet, creature is succesfull with reflex save, orb then continues turning right and is adjacent to creature after 5 feet of movement.
Then it can go back 2 more times.
I do not see difference in effect of the spell for going forward and then backward.
Getting out of the orb should be free action on creatures turn (in my opinion).
As for "in the path" argument: lets imagine hallway wide 10 feet which is turning right. Creature is standing in the corner. Aqueous orb is adjacent with the creature. Caster then moves the orb around the corner: it is over the creature after 1st 5 feet, creature is succesfull with reflex save, orb then continues turning right and is adjacent to creature after 5 feet of movement.
Then it can go back 2 more times.
I do not see difference in effect of the spell for going forward and then backward.Getting out of the orb should be free action on creatures turn (in my opinion).
Doesn't matter how many times the path intersects a creatures square that creature just counts as "in the path" and saves the one time.
So Wally the Wizard casts Aqueous Orb. As his move action he wills it to travel a 30' path in a straight line. After that path has been determined by Wally you ask, "Is anyone in that path?" Oh, Fred the Fighter is in that path so Fred gets a save not to be taken for a water ride.
Next Suzy the Sorcerer casts Aqueous Orb as well. As her move action she wills the orb to move back and forth between two squares. After that path has been determined by Suzy you ask, "Is anyone in that path?" Oh, Barry the Bard is in that path so Barry gets a save not to be taken for a water ride.
Wow, do you mean, that there will be only one save per Orb for whole duration?
Wow, do you mean, that there will be only one save per Orb for whole duration?
No, because each round as a move action it can be directed on a new path. Is someone in that path? If yes they get a save.
Since the escape from AO takes a full round and leaves them adjacent to the orb (3-6 more saves next round?) It seems overpowered indeed.
If you stay in the orb you take 2d6 but if you get out you can be subjected to 6d6 from 3 more saves?
I'm afraid RAI really seems once per round but admit I understand your argument based on the wording.
If you make the save, you take no damage. If you fail a save, you can't be affected again that round. Max damage is 2d6. The spell is better used to affect more creatures not reversed over the same one repeatedly. This is why I changed my mind, however I'd be fine with either interpretation.
It looks like you persuaded me :)
Thanks you all for participation.