Ultimate Intrigue and Unchained Monk

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Ultimate Intrigue adds two new Monk Archetypes. They're clearly meant to be usable by Unchained Monk, as they have each have a parenthetical mention in an ability that mentioned unchained monk. But the actual rules on what new Monk Archetypes are Unchained legal aren't clear.

Is this how valid Unchained monk archetypes are identified?

If Counselor didn't have Deceptive Ki (the only ability that explicitly mentioned unchained monk) would it be un-usable with Unchained Monk?

Do newly printed Monk archetypes still not work with Unchained Monk by default?

[Shiroi]

To my understanding the only reason old archetypes aren't compatible with UnMonk is because the UnMonk doesn't have most of the class abilities they would alter. The vast majority of monk class features became UnMonk Ki Powers, and a Ki Power slot at that level instead. In addition, flurry was vastly reworked and anything which modified old flurry or relied heavily upon the way old flurry worked is unpredictable at best with UnMonk.

As such, if the archetype doesn't replace the abilities old monk took for granted but UnMonk must take as Ki Powers, or seems written based on the new version of flurry, it probably isn't incompatible with UnMonk. DM discretion is advised during this change, of course, but honestly a lot of old archetypes actually do work with UnMonk. I've made an "of the Four Winds" which wasn't allowed to take abundant step at any level and wasn't granted a ki power selection at that level, because the archetype replaced the abundant step class feature. It worked fine.

Most new archetypes *should* be compatible with UnMonk and old monk, or should specify which, though I can't hold 3pp to that standard since not every 3pp publisher will have and or acknowledge Unchained as a thing that happened. But I'd be *very* surprised if Paizo ignored the major update to produce an incompatible archetype.

Even if they did, just pay close attention to how the archetypes work in general. Don't replace class abilities you don't have, and consider UnFlurry and Old Flurry two separate class abilities, and you should be fine.

[Mark Seifter]

They still wouldn't necessarily work with Unchained monk by default. It's tricky to make a good archetype for both monks because Unchained monk is a strong chassis to start with, so it wouldn't be a good idea to use it with some of the chained monk archetypes that were large power boosts (which it probably needed at the time). In Intrigue's case, we managed to find some archetypes that matched both types of monks well by being careful about what we were changing.

[Shiroi]

Mark Seifter wrote:

They still wouldn't necessarily work with Unchained monk by default. It's tricky to make a good archetype for both monks because Unchained monk is a strong chassis to start with, so it wouldn't be a good idea to use it with some of the chained monk archetypes that were large power boosts (which it probably needed at the time). In Intrigue's case, we managed to find some archetypes that matched both types of monks well by being careful about what we were changing.

Am I correct in assuming it would be noted if a new archetype was published which was incompatible with one version or the other?

[Mark Seifter]

Shiroi wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

They still wouldn't necessarily work with Unchained monk by default. It's tricky to make a good archetype for both monks because Unchained monk is a strong chassis to start with, so it wouldn't be a good idea to use it with some of the chained monk archetypes that were large power boosts (which it probably needed at the time). In Intrigue's case, we managed to find some archetypes that matched both types of monks well by being careful about what we were changing.

Am I correct in assuming it would be noted if a new archetype was published which was incompatible with one version or the other?

What I recall is that the Player Companions have a solid policy where they'll tell you on each one. For the RPG line, we don't do it quite the same way, but it'll say "Unchained Summoner" in the parens (like feycaller) if it's for Unchained, and otherwise, it's for chained by default (or both if Unchained gets a specific mention in the rules).

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Mark, is there any chance you can give some feedback on that policy so that future RPG line products make it explicit? Monk's the main one where it matters, and it seems very error prone to rely on happening to have an Unchained ability modified rather than making it explicit.

[Mark Seifter]

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

Mark, is there any chance you can give some feedback on that policy so that future RPG line products make it explicit? Monk's the main one where it matters, and it seems very error prone to rely on happening to have an Unchained ability modified rather than making it explicit.

I'll be sure to mention it. We'll be looking at the reaction in general to mentioning the adjustments for Unchained in the archetype like we did when it comes to future endeavors (if people don't want to see any Unchained mentions and just want everything to be chained-only, if people want Unchained-only as the default, etc). In the meantime, if it doesn't mention it, it's not for Unchained.

[Shiroi]

That's not the direction I personally expected it to go (I *love* unchained monk and would rather see support for core monk dry up and everything go to unchained, including a possible conversion chart for officially using old archetypes modified to be flavorful and fair with UnMonk) but I do respect the design decision and hope it works well with the community either way. But if I have any vote and you're taking notes on who likes what, my group has outlawed old monk and custom redone the old archetypes for people who want them at this point. We don't old monk anymore.

[James Risner]

I'll go on record to say that if the archetype can be made to be compatible with both, good. If not, I'm more interested in Unchained versions.

I'd also like to see a "Unchained Revisited" where the iconic archetypes get updated.

Master of Many Styles, Maneuver Master, etc.

[Ascalaphus]

I'd welcome a conversion book/table that would handle:
- Unchained versions of Chained Monk archetypes
- Unchained versions for rogue talents in softcovers
- Unchained versions for rage powers in softcovers

I'm not really read into the summoner, but I'm sure something similar applies.

[Manly-man teapot]

Ascalaphus wrote:

I'd welcome a conversion book/table that would handle:

- Unchained versions of Chained Monk archetypes
- Unchained versions for rogue talents in softcovers
- Unchained versions for rage powers in softcovers

I'm not really read into the summoner, but I'm sure something similar applies.

I'd buy that. Especially if it also has archetypes for a better Unchained Summoner (the casting nerf was long overdue but the Unchained Eidolon just shat the bed without actually fixing anything).