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Animal companions are not proficient with armor spikes. So even if you somehow could convince your animal companion to attack with something other than its natural weapons (which an extended FAQ said is highly unlikely because animals prefer to attack with their natural weapons), you would take a non-proficiency penalty.
Don't know the PFS answer. Probably. Anything that makes PC life harder usually gets a thumbs up from them.
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Animal companions are not proficient with armor spikes. So even if you somehow could convince your animal companion to attack with something other than its natural weapons (which an extended FAQ said is highly unlikely because animals prefer to attack with their natural weapons), you would take a non-proficiency penalty.
Mainly, the point of the armor spikes would be to discourage enemies from swallow and constrict attacks on my companion...
Otherwise, I would be using the natural attack for most things.
If you want to just stick them on there, then by all means.
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Mainly, the point of the armor spikes would be to discourage enemies from swallow and constrict attacks on my companion...Armor Spikes don't do anything like that, though.
They kinda do.
Armor spikes are light piercing weapons, so can be used to cut your way out of a creature's belly if swallowed whole. Not an issue for all companions, as natural weapons are light and piercing/slashing isn't uncommon for natural attacks. Still, Companions with only hoof, tail slap, slam, pincers, tentacle, or wing natural attacks are unable to deal slashing or piercing damage, so cannot get out if swallowed whole (without defeating the grapple check). An issue for some Companions and many familiars.
And its a role playing thing. If role playing the monsters well, they'll reconsider trying to grab spiky creatures, even if there's not really a game-mechanic reason not to. Just common sense. I mean, if you have a choice of two creatures to grab, do you pick the spiky one?
Plus there's a really awesome picture in the animal archive of what can only be an triceratops with Armor Spikes and barding (back cover and page 21). Not saying this has rules value, it's just awesome.
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Animal companions are not proficient with armor spikes. So even if you somehow could convince your animal companion to attack with something other than its natural weapons (which an extended FAQ said is highly unlikely because animals prefer to attack with their natural weapons), you would take a non-proficiency penalty.
Anyway, you could train them with armor spikes with a feat, though I agree, their main attacks would remain natural ones. Just because the animal learns to use armor spikes, doesn't mean they'd replace their preferred natural attack. I'd probably not waste the feat, and just rely on BAB+Strength to make their armor spikes impressive in the rare situations where the animal sees the need to use them instead of their natural attacks (like when your horse is swallowed whole...).
There are a few additional armored spike specific feats that may be useful, though I really haven't looked into if the animal companions can qualify.
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Snakes regularly eat porcupines, spikes aren't much of a deterrent to swallow whole. Besides, as pointed out, the spike would actually make it harder for the companion to escape. It can't use iterative attacks to make weapon attacks with the spikes, and you only add the damage on a successful grapple check. They are not adding any damage when the animal is grappled, and they make it harder to escape the grapple or crawl out of the stomach thanks to the -4 proficiency penalty on grapple checks.
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Anyway, you could train them with armor spikes with a featNot according to the FAQ.
By all means, direct me to the FAQ that specifically bans Spiked Armor training for animal companions.
Snakes regularly eat porcupines, spikes aren't much of a deterrent to swallow whole. Besides, as pointed out, the spike would actually make it harder for the companion to escape. It can't use iterative attacks to make weapon attacks with the spikes, and you only add the damage on a successful grapple check. They are not adding any damage when the animal is grappled, and they make it harder to escape the grapple or crawl out of the stomach thanks to the -4 proficiency penalty on grapple checks.
Swallow Whole (Ex)
If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent grappled in its mouth (see Grab), it can attempt a new combat maneuver check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category Smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed causes a creature to take damage each round. The amount and type of damage varies and is given in the creature’s statistics. A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, while the creature that did the swallowing does not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature’s total hit points), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.
Pasted from http://www.d20pfsrd.com
A horse, for example, swallowed whole, is unable to attempt to "cut its way free," as the horse lacks natural attacks that are piercing or slashing. Spiked armor solves this.
Even non-proficent, the interior of the creature is usually much lower AC and only requires 1/10th of the HP in damage to get out. This is usually a better option for an animal companion.
And, by the way, I'm not suggesting you'd want to be eaten, so this is totally a "best of a bad situation" tactic.
Not the FAQ, but the animal companions rule section:
Animal companions can select from the following feats: Acrobatic, Agile Maneuvers, Armor Proficiency (light, medium, and heavy), Athletic, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Overrun, Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Run, Skill Focus, Spring Attack, Stealthy, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources.
So unless the companion is int 3+, it looks like no Spiked Armor Training to me (without GM approval.)
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Not the FAQ, but the animal companions rule section:
So unless the companion is int 3+, it looks like no Spiked Armor Training to me (without GM approval.)
Animal companions can select from the following feats: Acrobatic, Agile Maneuvers, Armor Proficiency (light, medium, and heavy), Athletic, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Overrun, Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Run, Skill Focus, Spring Attack, Stealthy, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources.
Yeah, completely agree here. Was certainly thinking Int 3 animals.
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Most weapons require thumbs to use properly, and even then, few animals would choose to use an artificial weapon in place of the natural weapons that have served them all their life. It's what they were born with, after all, and virtually no amount of training will change that. In the end, the GM should feel free to restrict such choices if he feels that they take away from the feel of his campaign. The rules themselves are left a little vague to give the GM the latitude to make the call that's right for his campaign.
The blog pretty much disallows the use of any manufactured weapon for animal companions. You are free to house rule for home play, but this pretty much disallows it for PFS.
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For example, do you really think you couldn't train an Ankylosaurus to use armor spikes? Seems like it would be second nature.
Although it lacks rules to this effect, the creature naturally has armor spikes:
The ankylosaurus is a powerful, squat dinosaur more than capable of defending itself against enemies. Its back is heavily armored with thick bony plates and spikes.
Pasted from PRD.
Training an ankylosaurus to use armor spikes sounds like a very reasonable houserule to consider. As far as RAW goes (and PFS without a doubt), the answer is unfortunately no.
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Most weapons require thumbs to use properly, and even then, few animals would choose to use an artificial weapon in place of the natural weapons that have served them all their life. It's what they were born with, after all, and virtually no amount of training will change that. In the end, the GM should feel free to restrict such choices if he feels that they take away from the feel of his campaign. The rules themselves are left a little vague to give the GM the latitude to make the call that's right for his campaign.The blog pretty much disallows the use of any manufactured weapon for animal companions. You are free to house rule for home play, but this pretty much disallows it for PFS.
Most weapons require thumbs...Armor spikes don't require thumbs. They don't even require limbs. They just mount to the armor the companion is already wearing (assuming you value your companion enough to give it armor).
And, again, I'm not suggesting using armor spikes as a primary weapon, but that they'd be good options for when the natural weapons just aren't cutting it.
As per the FAQ above, it isn't that the weapon training is banned from PF games, it's clarifying that the GM is free to restrict weapons if they desire.
For PFS use, nothing in the above quote or linked FAQ entry specifically bans weapon training feats. What it says is that animals are unlikely to "use" manufactured weapons instead of their natural weapons. It doesn't say you can't train them, just that they are unlikely to use the manufactured weapons.
So, while I can train a horse to use armored spikes, they'll still only use the spikes in desperate situations where their natural attacks just don't work. Like being swallowed...
Armour spikes do nothing to stop other critters either constricting or swallowing whole. It may be counter-intuitive, but there are no rules to that effect.
You also fall foul of the no manufactured weapons blog. specifically:
few animals would choose to use an artificial weapon in place of the natural weapons that have served them all their life. It's what they were born with, after all, and virtually no amount of training will change that
However, many common attacks are already piercing or slashing, and
natural weapons are light weapons|
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Sure thing =)By all means, direct me to the FAQ that specifically bans Spiked Armor training for animal companions.Anyway, you could train them with armor spikes with a featNot according to the FAQ.
Can I improve my companion’s Intelligence to 3 or higher and give it weapon feats?No. An Intelligence of 3 does not grant animals sentience, the ability to use weapons or tools, speak a language (though they may understand one with a rank in Linguistics; this does not grant literacy), or activate magic devices. Also note that raising an animal companion’s Intelligence to 3 or higher does not eliminate the need to make Handle Animal checks to direct its actions; even semi-intelligent animals still act like animals unless trained not to. An animal with Intelligence of 3 or higher remains a creature of the animal type unless its type is specifically changed by another ability. An animal may learn 3 additional tricks per point of Intelligence above 2.
Now that is a clear answer. Clearly states you can't increase the animals intelligence to 3 or higher.
Murdock, this is literally word for word the FAQ.
Can I improve my companion’s Intelligence to 3 or higher and give it weapon feats?
No. An Intelligence of 3 does not grant animals sentience, the ability to use weapons...
That's pretty clear.
Edit: Yes you can increase an animal's intelligence to 3 or higher. But that does not grant them the ability to be trained with manufactured weapons.
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What you can do if you want your critter to be able to cut themselves out of a swallow whole and they don't have the right damage type on natural weapons is to give them the Weapon Versatility feat with said natural weapon. The feat is legal, can can be applied to natural weapons.
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What you can do if you want your critter to be able to cut themselves out of a swallow whole and they don't have the right damage type on natural weapons is to give them the Weapon Versatility feat with said natural weapon. The feat is legal, can can be applied to natural weapons.
How is this feat legal with the above FAQ? Says no "weapon feats." Doesn't say no weapon training, says no weapon feats.
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The FAQ says you cannot train them in manufactured weapons, that doesn't mean you can't give them further training with their natural weapons. Both Weapon Focus and Weapon Versatility can be applied to natural weapons.
Context is everything. Over-literal reading is not required.
Weapon feats in the context of the FAQ is proficiency feats.
There is nothing stopping you giving weapon enhancing feats such as weapon focus (or weapon versatility).
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What you can do if you want your critter to be able to cut themselves out of a swallow whole and they don't have the right damage type on natural weapons is to give them the Weapon Versatility feat with said natural weapon. The feat is legal, can can be applied to natural weapons.How is this feat legal with the above FAQ? Says no "weapon feats." Doesn't say no weapon training, says no weapon feats.
The list of forbidden actions is clear:
No. An Intelligence of 3 does not grant animals sentience, the ability to use weapons or tools, speak a language (though they may understand one with a rank in Linguistics; this does not grant literacy), or activate magic devices. Also note that raising an animal companion’s Intelligence to 3 or higher does not eliminate the need to make Handle Animal checks to direct its actions; even semi-intelligent animals still act like animals unless trained not to. An animal with Intelligence of 3 or higher remains a creature of the animal type unless its type is specifically changed by another ability. An animal may learn 3 additional tricks per point of Intelligence above 2.
Weapon Versatility is a combat feat, that requires weapon focus in a weapon. Weapon Focus is expressly allowed to animal companions regardless of INT. Using feat on a natural weapon is not using a manufactured weapon or tool.
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Weapon focus (bite) is a very popular option for both PCs and NPC critters.
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The list of forbidden actions is clear:
No. An Intelligence of 3 does not grant animals sentience, the ability to use weapons or tools, speak a language (though they may understand one with a rank in Linguistics; this does not grant literacy), or activate magic devices. Also note that raising an animal companion’s Intelligence to 3 or higher does not eliminate the need to make Handle Animal checks to direct its actions; even semi-intelligent animals still act like animals unless trained not to. An animal with Intelligence of 3 or higher remains a creature of the animal type unless its type is specifically changed by another ability. An animal may learn 3 additional tricks per point of Intelligence above 2.Weapon Versatility is a combat feat, that requires weapon focus in a weapon. Weapon Focus is expressly allowed to animal companions regardless of INT. Using feat on a natural weapon is not using a manufactured weapon or tool.
You are ignoring the question asked.
The question the above is answering is:
Can I improve my companion’s Intelligence to 3 or higher and give it weapon feats?
To which your answer starts with a clear "No."
So if I can't get weapon training, how is it you are applying other weapon feats to your companions?
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Weapon focus (bite) is a very popular option for both PCs and NPC critters.
Weapon focus is allowed regardless of intelligence (aside from vermin companions), as per the Animal Feat options:
Animal Feats
Animal companions can select from the following feats: Acrobatic, Agile Maneuvers, Armor Proficiency (light, medium, and heavy), Athletic, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Overrun, Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Run, Skill Focus, Spring Attack, Stealthy, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources.
pasted from Archives of Nethys
The above FAQ question is addressing further weapon feats allowed only due to high intelligence. This list is feats that can be used at any intelligence.
So, yes, Weapon focus is allowed, but not because of that FAQ, the two are unrelated.
Weapon Versatility, on the other hand, is weapon feat only attainable via Int 3+. So that FAQ is addressing this sort of weapon feat specifically.
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The list of forbidden actions is clear:
No. An Intelligence of 3 does not grant animals sentience, the ability to use weapons or tools, speak a language (though they may understand one with a rank in Linguistics; this does not grant literacy), or activate magic devices. Also note that raising an animal companion’s Intelligence to 3 or higher does not eliminate the need to make Handle Animal checks to direct its actions; even semi-intelligent animals still act like animals unless trained not to. An animal with Intelligence of 3 or higher remains a creature of the animal type unless its type is specifically changed by another ability. An animal may learn 3 additional tricks per point of Intelligence above 2.
For the record, this is not a list of "Forbidden Actions"
What it says is that INT 3 does not grant them the ability to use weapons. Just like it doesn't grant the ability to speak, even if you take linguistics.
That said, if the animal can already speak, this FAQ doesn't prevent them from speaking. It merely clarifies that they don't gain the ability to do things that biologically they can't do. Just being smarter doesn't change vocal chords, just like being smarter does mean that swords become easier to hold.
Armor Spikes are something an INT 2 animal has the ability to use, even if they aren't proficient and would still prefer their attacks natural, they have the "ability" to use them. It's a physical thing that is just attached to their armor (which most/all companions can use) and applies damage if they decide to slam their body into something.
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Or let it die so you have a literal dead horse to beat instead of this one ;)
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It is intended that animal companions or familiars can not activate magic items. An animal companion could benefit from an item with a continuous magical effect like an amulet of natural armor if its master equipped the item for the animal companion....
So disorganized, these FAQs.
As I read it, they can equip armor, and by extension, can equip armor with spikes attached, but they cannot use the spiked armor as a weapon.
So I could make the companion look really awesome, but it would be cosmetic.
Sigh...thanks for answering my question.