"Victory is boring"


Advice

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The skill and tactics of the DM determines the difficulty more than anything else.

A dm that knows the rules and advantages of actions readily. As well as competent strategies can make a game much more dangerous.

I play PFS at different venues. One of them has DMs that super softball the game. It is so bad part of me thinks the DMs cheat for the players to remove any possibility of threat or dangers to there players.

When I Dm for them the poor builds and tactics have been some of their demises.


I don't do PFS but after a little googling, it looks like you can do retraining. You might want to explore that option and retrain some of your character.

Or, on a side note, if you're not having fun with this group than find a different group.


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Most of this has already been said, but I will reiterate and clarify a few.

1) Wizard is tough at low levels. You are just getting to the point where it really begins to shine. At 1st and 2nd level the infinite ray of frost is almost as good as anything else for mooks. And you can still have a few decent spells for the bosses. As the levels start to go up, you will rapidly get much more powerful.

2) The range touch build can be pretty decent. There are some nice debuff spells that are range touch. Might consider reach spell to make some touch into range touch. Some that don't have any save.

3) Unless you really build for it, it is really tough for a wizard to out damage (or even come close) to the damage of a martial class. It isn't impossible, but it is difficult. So don't try. I wouldn't bother with the fireball unless you have some reason to expect a large number of mooks that you will be able to hit at once.

4) Most of my caster combat spells are buff spells to make my allies fight better or debuff spells to make the enemy fight worse. Then I add a few SoS and damage spells into the mix.

5) Very often, the wizard is most able contribute by the non-combat spells. Especially as a wizard, you can leave a few spell slots open for the 'oh crap how do we get over there' moments. Detect secret doors, fly, dimension door, summon monster (that you can speak with) for special tasks, seek thoughts, spider climb, and things like that have literally changed a mission fail into an easy success.

6) Do NOT discount the value of the monster knowledge skills. Being able to tell that it has hardness 20/adamantine, is immune to mind effects, or has a horrible fort save can be incredibly valuable. Especially in the higher level scenarios with some of the really wierd opponents.

7) There are some scenarios (I couldn't even begin to guess the ratio) where being able to fight well is relatively unimportant. There are ones where you can't easily walk around with visible armor and weapons. What will those guys do in those situations?

8) Some of the high level scenarios I've played in recently, the martials had a really hard time even getting close to the bad guys to swing weapons. A flying, dimensional step, invisible caster was completely murderizing the party. My caster actually died, but he was also critical to the success.


Okay I think things have gotten pretty sidetracked, so I'm gonna sum up my thoughts again:

My wizard is basically way the hell sub-optimal due to poor decisions. Without starting again from level 1, I'm sorta stuck with him as is. But, I don't really CARE that my wizard is stuck being suboptimal. The main points are that the group I'm playing with is extremely experienced and optimized to the point that there's no challenge, that I feel like I'm lagging behind in terms of effectiveness compared with any of them, and, the most recent point, that when I brought up my concerns on these points to them, they basically didn't listen to me or address anything seriously, told me to quit worrying and just go with the flow I guess. Sorta felt like they were willing to say anything that supported the arguments "Staying at high level is a good idea," even if it's not, because they're tired of low-level stuff. And that includes telling me to suck it up and play with a lousy character instead of starting fresh with one I'd be having more fun with.

blegh, it feels kind of stupid talking like I'm right and they're wrong. It's hard looking at a group of 4 people who are all telling you the same thing and trying to feel like you might be in the right. u~u

I don't know, I should probably try and find a different group..... but I've been playing with this one for like 6 months, I was just starting to feel at home with these guys. I do like them. Most of them anyway, one's a little obnoxious.....

And even moreso, I feel like I'm going to have a hard time finding a group with as much energy or organization as these guys. All the other groups I played with before them were either absurdly sloppy (didn't know any basic rules) really rude or just completely lacking enthusiasm. I don't wanna have to go back to looking for other groups. :(

Liberty's Edge

Just saying - you can retrain most things in PFS. It costs prestige - a little bit of a gamble, as if you die and don't have the cash/prestige for a raise dead (or something similar) then you're permanently gone. But you can retrain feat choices that you didn't like, and a fair few class choices as well. I know you said you didn't really care that Solomon is sub-optimal, but figured I'd point it out, if you wanted to. If you don't dislike the sub-optimal choices, what exactly do you want to change in a new character to be more interesting?

You can GM for them for a little while, if they'll let you. You can apply the credit from some of these games to a level 1 character, and then get up to 3rd level and play in 3-7s with them. You'll likely be playing up, so you'll definitely be in danger, but it is a choice you have.

It's strange to see the Wizard feel like they're not doing anything. As a Diviner, you're basically always acting in the surprise round/first in the order, so you should have the opportunity to start things off. Starting off with something like Slow, Grease, Glitterdust, the Create Pit line, and the like should at the very least take the enemies out of the combat - that's basically the common job for a Wizard. Sure, your party might normally kill them without your help, but I'd guess it's the same if you took out any individual member. The thing about PFS is that it's relatively easy for the most part (you can try and do Bonekeep or other difficult scenarios if you're interested in more of a challenge in PFS), so with a highly-optimized party (most wizards are optimized for the most part, even with sub-optimal choices they're as powerful as most classes, if not more powerful still) you'll be destroying most mods. Doesn't mean you're not doing anything, it just means that you can probably pick 2-3 of the members of your party and still win it :)

Oh, and the obvious solution to your 'I like these guys but they don't want to do 1-5s anymore' is to go to a con or something like that near you where you can get a lot of PFS done in a small amount of time. I was just involved in running a con down here in Australia, and we had some players go from level 1-4 in the one weekend (Long weekend, they played Friday evening, twice on Sat/Sun/Mon, including some full-round modules :))! At level 4 you should be close-ish to Solomon now (I think you said he was 5), so can join in :)


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I think I was addressing most of those points.

I really doubt your wizard is 'sub-optimal' to the point of not being able to contribute. It sounds like you are trying to do the wrong things with him and that is why he feels sub-optimal.
One thing you could do is post the build so-far in a new thread asking for advice on what to do with him at this point. I've done that with a few of my characters and been much happier with them.

Totally different possibility, some people just don't like playing wizards. I happen to be one of them. I really dislike the prepared book caster. You will never get a wizard to play like a druid or barbarian, if that is what you really like playing.

Martial builds shine the most in levels 1-6. Especially if they are really optimized for just one thing and one type of combat. At higher levels some of the wierd environments and odd capabilities of the opponents start giving them troubles. Those are often things that a martial character will always find difficult if not impossible to deal with, but may be quite easy for a versatile caster.

Most (but not all) PFS scenarios are relatively easy combat wise. In an area with a larger pool of players you never know what 4-6 players will be sitting at the table. So they are designed to be possible with pretty lopsided groups. I've been at table with no skills, no face, no casters, or no melee characters. We still usually managed to get a win.
You have a small consistent group, that does give you folks a consistent advantage. You have a good idea of what each others strengths and weakness are and how each other will react. So you are substantially more capable than PFS scenarios are really designed to handle. So yes, most of them will be likely to seem kinda easy. That is just a fact of life with PFS.

There are some that are extremely difficult even for a highly optimized and experienced group.

I don't know, maybe they are deliberately picking the scenarios that are combat heavy. There are some that are extremely social and/or skill heavy. There are some combat scenarios that a bunch of melee martials would find difficult in the extreme. Maybe read through some of the reviews (skipping the spoilers) and suggest/request some of the scenarios that have more skill, social, or otherwise non-standard challenges.


The more time I spend on the forums the more I realize there is a massive spectrum of game difficulty going on. PFS requires playing scenarios as written - I suspect you would have more fun in home games or in PFS with similar new players.

Pathfinder can be a bit like a computer game - whereby someone finds the 'right' combo and the stomps through challenges. It is the unavoidable consequence of a game with lots of choices, both in ways of dealing with problems and methods of acquiring those solutions (stacking bonuses).

There is a fix to that. It means players of similar power levels playing together and DMs that set difficulty at a level that the group likes. Unfortunately PFS can make both these things harder - not impossible but harder.

Keep looking for new groups would be my advice, and in the meantime keep playing and learning the game. Once you have got a few games under your belt maybe give DMing a try (maybe not on PFS early on) that will up your challenges considerably!

Dark Archive

I'll say this as well, AntipodeF, many would say that you are playing the wizard right... When I play a wizard, I see the Martials as those lackeys whose job is to do the easy stuff. My job is to make the hard stuff easy. So, saving spells is always a priority... Why waste precious resources when they are gonna murderate the mooks anyway?

You will soon find more than just non-combat times that they'll want your help... Your versatility in spells will be critical.

Consider fast study as your corrected level 5 wizard feat... memorizing spells in one minute will give you the ability to react to conditions you learn of (though not fast enough for a battle). Versatility is your main strength!


You're not in bad shape and you have a really interesting build. There are many really powerful ray spells that come online as you get to higher levels. Enervation, Disintegrate, etc. You just need to get used the breadth of spells. Create pit and that line, as has been indicate, are really good. You are playing the single most versatile class in the game; just learn more spells, find the most useful spells, eventually add metamagic and you'll be good.

Someone recommended Treatmonk's Guide to Wizards above. I second that. At the very least it'll single out a number of good spells. Damage is almost always a secondary focus for wizards. Your job is to do a variety of things, in and out of combat. You'll get exponentially more options as the game goes along and influence the game more than anyone else in the party.

Damage in common currency. You can control the battlefield, buff the party, debuff and destroy the enemies pretty handly. Damage spells are useful when you've already influenced the battle in your favor. Summons double your action economy and can provide flanking bonuses to the rest of your party. Eventually they will add even more spellcasting to your arsenal. Your character is going to be versatile, awesome, and useful from here on out. Just take the time to familiarize yourself with the spell list and pick a variety of good in combat spells that attack all three saves and provide assistance in a variety of situations.


Gettin kinda frustrated with how many people keep coming here to talk about my wizard build.

Also, this topic is over a week old. I've got my answers anyway: look for a new group in the area, since I'm not happy with my old one. I've been doing just that (though if anyone in the College Station, Texas area want to shoot me a line, that would be helpful) so this topic can pretty much go to rest, I think.

EDIT: Okay, in your defense, I never actually said that, so I guess looking back, it might seem like this topic was still up in the air waiting for an answer. So, good on you fro responding I guess. But the problem was never "Why does my wizard suck so much?" even though we wound up talking about that a lot for some reason; the problem was "I want to be facing more dangerous challenges, but my teammates are strong enough to crush the damn world with bare hands." And the solution, obviously, is "Talk to them about upping the ante, and if they don't want to, leave and find a new group." I talked, they said "no," more or less, so.... yeah.

Grand Lodge

For finding other local gamers, one thing you can do is contact the nearest Venture Officers, listed at Pathfinder Society Regional Coordinators, scroll down to Texas, and send emails to the people listed as VCs or VLs nearby. I see a VC listed for Austin, and 2 for Houston, so they might know of additional local-to-you gamers, or gaming opportunities.


It's true that there are some in Texas, but the nearest of those listed is 94 miles. And I don't have a car, nor a driver's license. Hate to sound hopeless and shut down the people who are trying to help, but I'm guessing there's no easy answer to this one; there's only one major group within 20 miles that's active online, and that's the group I've decided isn't right for me. Probly gonna wind up putting up flyers and posting on social media, scrapping a group together, probably buying a bunch of sourcebooks and being the GM. blegh..... far from ideal, to say the least. :(

The Exchange

Play online on Roll20. Go adventuring from the comfort of your own home!

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There is also a healthy group of PFS play happening here on the Paizo forums in "play by post" format. It's very slow compared to Roll20, but it allows for a lot of roleplay. There are plenty of non-PFS PF games happening in that format as well.

I can sympathize a little with your situation in the issue of "I'm new to the system and excited about it, but my buddies have seen and done it all." That's not my current situation, but it was when I got into Pathfinder already-- the overall cohort of my gaming friends all got kind of burnt out on PF just about the time I was getting into it, so I had to also find other solutions and ways to play. Good luck.

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