
Andostre |

Ok, I'm GMing a 4th level ranger with +7 Survival tracking a guy moving at full speed on a horse through the wilderness. The runner's destination is days away, but he only departed about 15 minutes prior, and with a tracker moving at half speed (the ranger's half speed or the ranger's horse's half speed?), this "chase" could potentially last many days.
So, assuming I'm reading the rules right, I'm making a skill check for every mile, factoring in terrain, visibility conditions, and the length of time that has passed since the tracks being followed were made. The length of time is subject to change throughout the chase because the tracker is not moving as fast as the trackee. I make this check every mile, more if the tracker loses the trail, and then tries again an hour later.
Am I over-thinking this? Is there a mechanic that I'm overlooking that simplifies this? Do most other GMs in similar situations make all of these calculations/rolls? They're not hard, but it seems counterintuitive that a GM would devote time out of the game to make all of these rolls, so I wondering if there's not an alternate method.

voideternal |
Seems accurate. The tracker can choose to take a -5 penalty to the survival check to move at normal speed.
The trackee can't move at max speed the whole time without having some solution to forced march / hustle rules:
Hustle: A character can hustle for 1 hour without a problem. Hustling for a second hour in between sleep cycles deals 1 point of nonlethal damage, and each additional hour deals twice the damage taken during the previous hour of hustling. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from hustling becomes fatigued.
A fatigued character can't run or charge and takes a penalty of –2 to Strength and Dexterity. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue.
Run: A character can't run for an extended period of time. Attempts to run and rest in cycles effectively work out to a hustle.
Terrain: The terrain through which a character travels affects the distance he can cover in an hour or a day (see Table: Terrain and Overland Movement). A highway is a straight, major, paved road. A road is typically a dirt track. A trail is like a road, except that it allows only single-file travel and does not benefit a party traveling with vehicles. Trackless terrain is a wild area with no paths.
Forced March: In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.
A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It's possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard.
Mounted Movement: A mount bearing a rider can move at a hustle. The damage it takes when doing so, however, is lethal damage, not nonlethal damage. The creature can also be ridden in a forced march, but its Constitution checks automatically fail, and the damage it takes is lethal damage. Mounts also become fatigued when they take any damage from hustling or forced marches.
If you're the GM, and this is a pre-planned event, then one solution is to choose a survival DC that makes sense for the scene in question, and stick with it. I'd do this if you think your players might not be interested in rolling Survival after Survival. If this is happening on the fly, then the survival rules for following tracks are a good fallback.

Kalridian |

Seriously, I just handwave rolls based on the length of the Chase.
One roll to get started and one roll every time the conditions change to the worse (transition from soft to rocky ground, rain, Nightfall, whatever). Conditions improving obviously doesn't force a roll, and one to get "back on track" after a nights rest or any kind of major distraction like an encounter. If you feel like this is to easy, maybe make it a basic 4 checks/day with additional ones for unfavourable conditions.
Everything else just drives the Players and the GM insane. You're supposed to have fun, not sit around the table as laves to the rules, being extremely annoyed.
Also, I would give the ranger a penalty if he wants to track from horseback, like maybe 2 or 3 but then would allow him to use the horses half speed. If he does not want that penalty, he'll have to get off and use his own half speed.

Chess Pwn |

Well the tracker can take 10, so that means he can follow the trail up to dc 17 with "no checks" needing to be made. Then if they lose they can try rolling to re-find the trail.
Most GMs don't use tracking this way and make up their own rules, and thus the track ability is useless. If the GM wants you to track them then you will, if the GM doesn't want you to track them then you can't.

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Yes, that's how the rules work. They're really not designed for extended tracking challenges, and probably should be.
I think a mounted rider uses half the mount's speed for tracking. Unless you're doing a forced march, that's 20 miles per day moving at half speed on a light horse. 20 Survival checks a day, yikes.
Taking 10 is a good idea if the ranger can make the check at that DC. Otherwise you need to roll. Adding +5 to the DC isn't a bad simplification, but it's probably oversimplified and doesn't represent well the increasing chance that the tracker will lose the trail the longer the chase goes on.
If you want something slightly more nuanced but without making 20 rolls per day, homebrew/house rules ahoy:
Figure out how many miles the tracker could potentially cover. Divide by 2. Roll once per day. Subtract and add this number to the tracker's roll (before adding the skill bonus) to create a "range" of die results (min 1, max 20). If the miles covered per day is even, ignore the actual roll. You now have a number of "roll results" equal to the number of miles traveled = the number of rolls you're supposed to make. Now, adding the skill bonus, check how many of these rolls results in a success. Say that the tracker makes that many miles of progress.
So for example on the first day, the DC may be 15 (firm ground, one medium creature, no other adverse conditions). The tracker rolls a 12. For 20 miles per day, we get a "roll range" of 2-11 and 13-22 (treat last 3 rolls as 20). Since he succeeds on a roll of 8, we have 6 failures and 14 successes, and the tracker makes 14 miles of progress. The quarry makes 24 miles progress at full speed on foot. On day 2, it's foggy, but the quarry is still less than a day ahead, so the DC is 18. The tracker rolls a 7, for a "roll range" of -3 to 6 and 8 to 17. He needs an 11 to succeed, so this time he has only 7 successes and makes 7 miles of progress, for a total of 21 miles. The quarry has now travelled 48 miles and is more than a day (24 miles) ahead, so the next day the DC increases by 1 for a cold trail.
This isn't perfect since a failed check costs you an hour, not a mile of progress, and you're probably moving at 1.5-2.5 miles/hour, so if you actually rolled it out you'd make less progress than expected. But it's probably a decent simplification that still includes some randomness.

DM_Blake |

I don't think the Track skill specifies any penalties for tracking from horseback, so that shouldn't matter; the ranger should be able to remain on his horse.
The OP said "wilderness" and didn't mention a road, so since most trackless wilderness areas are 1/2 speed, let's assume that both horses can move 2.5 mph, but the tracking ranger is moving at half speed, 1.25 mph.
Assuming "firm ground" since that's the default and we have no reason to assume something else gives us a DC of 14 (the horse is a large creature).
The ranger can follow this automatically by taking-10 every hour and never lose the trail, unless it starts to rain or he can't see well enough after dark (and has no torches). Even if the bad guy gets a full 3 days ahead, the ranger can still Take-10 and follow him.
All that changes if penalties are applied for poor conditions. If it suddenly starts raining, we may assume that the ranger is falling afoul of the weather, or perhaps of the villain's plot armor.
Given the speeds involved and assuming no poor conditions arise, the villain will need to travel for 8 days before he is four full days ahead of the ranger moving half his speed. At that point, the ranger can no longer Take-10.
Unfortunately, that last bit means this ranger cannot take-10 to follow the villain at full speed because that raises the DC to 19 and he'll need to roll a 12 or higher. Trying at full speed means the ranger has over a 90% chance to lose the trail after just three hours, a pretty safe bet he loses it, then keeps losing it. Mathematically, traveling at half-speed with Take-10 is faster than losing the trail so frequently.
Now, if I'm GMing and want the PC ranger to succeed, I'll just have him track the guy for less than 8 days without any appreciable change in the weather. If I want it to fail, I'll add another day or two, or some bad weather, or a dark cloudy night, or a few miles of hard ground, or have the bad guy spend half a day in a river bed (hiding his trail).
Really, once the ranger cannot Take-10, even if he just needs to roll an 11, he now fails 50% in one hour, 75% in two, 87.5% in three, and over 90% failure in four hours. Reacquiring the trail means he begins failing all over again. The villain will be getting really far away every time the ranger blows it, so it really does become impossible without Take-10.

N N 959 |
Ok, I'm GMing a 4th level ranger with +7 Survival tracking a guy moving at full speed on a horse through the wilderness. The runner's destination is days away, but he only departed about 15 minutes prior, and with a tracker moving at half speed (the ranger's half speed or the ranger's horse's half speed?), this "chase" could potentially last many days.
So, assuming I'm reading the rules right, I'm making a skill check for every mile, factoring in terrain, visibility conditions, and the length of time that has passed since the tracks being followed were made. The length of time is subject to change throughout the chase because the tracker is not moving as fast as the trackee. I make this check every mile, more if the tracker loses the trail, and then tries again an hour later.
Am I over-thinking this? Is there a mechanic that I'm overlooking that simplifies this? Do most other GMs in similar situations make all of these calculations/rolls? They're not hard, but it seems counterintuitive that a GM would devote time out of the game to make all of these rolls, so I wondering if there's not an alternate method.
Let's see if I can help.
1. Let's look at some of the overland travel rules.
Walk: A character can walk 8 hours in a day of travel without a problem. Walking for longer than that can wear him out (see Forced March, below).
Hustle: A character can hustle for 1 hour without a problem. Hustling for a second hour in between sleep cycles deals 1 point of nonlethal damage, and each additional hour deals twice the damage taken during the previous hour of hustling. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from hustling becomes fatigued.
A fatigued character can't run or charge and takes a penalty of –2 to Strength and Dexterity. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue.
****
Mounted Movement: A mount bearing a rider can move at a hustle. The damage it takes when doing so, however, is lethal damage, not nonlethal damage. The creature can also be ridden in a forced march, but its Constitution checks automatically fail, and the damage it takes is lethal damage. Mounts also become fatigued when they take any damage from hustling or forced marches.
So the quarry has to walk the horse if it plans on not killing the horse. Normal movement for a Horse is 50ft. That translates to 40 miles in a day (8 hours of walking).
So let's assume (for now) the Ranger's moves at the Ranger's full speed, not the mounted Ranger's full speed. A human Ranger moves 24 miles a day. So after three days, even tracking at full speed, the Ranger is 48 miles (another two days travel) behind and losing ground...and that's assuming the Ranger never has to roll.
So how far can a Ranger realistically move in a day if they roll better than a 10 every mile? It's looking like about 4 hours per 3 miles. Which means in a 24 hour period, the Ranger would only get 12 miles with no sleep.
2. Let's look at the track rules:
Follow Tracks: To find tracks or to follow them for 1 mile requires a successful Survival check. You must make another Survival check every time the tracks become difficult to follow.
***
Firm Ground: Most normal outdoor surfaces (such as lawns, fields, woods, and the like) or exceptionally soft or dirty indoor surfaces (thick rugs and very dirty or dusty floors). The creature might leave some traces (broken branches or tufts of hair), but it leaves only occasional or partial footprints.
Yes, the rule appears to require a track check every mile. But if your tracker can't Take 10 to follow the tracks, you're expecting a player to roll 120 times over a 3 day "chase" with a less than 50% chance of succeeding on any individual check.
Try Again: *** For finding tracks, you can retry a failed check after 1 hour (outdoors) or 10 minutes (indoors) of searching.
So let's do some simple math. If your tracker can't Take 10 to track, then they are going to fail about 60 of the 120 checks over three days. That's a minimum of an additional 60 hours of looking for tracks. Then they'll fail 30 of those 60 retries and we're up to 90 hours of additional tracking time. Then they'll fail about 15 of those 30 so now our Ranger will have wasted on average, 105 hours looking for a lost track over a three day period. And that's assuming the Ranger is successful on a 10. If their chance is worse than that, it'll take longer.
3. Let's try and figure the track DC
Firm ground is a base 10 and the horse is a Large Animal so that would bring the base DC down to 9.
Now here comes some confusing rules:
You move at half your normal speed while following tracks...
What is considered your "normal speed"? Clearly it does not include your speed while mounted, but does it include your speed encumbered with gear? What about with magic items/spells that increase bases speed? Why would a Barbarian tracking at half speed be faster than a Ranger tracking at half speed? If it's because the Barbarian moves faster, then shouldn't a mounted Ranger get to move at half the horse's speed?
4. Conclusion -
If you want a Ranger to be able to track someone over any distance, then you have to set the DC low enough that they can Take 10 while moving at full speed.
In the few PFS scenarios that I've seen use tracking, they all used a single check and none of them actually tracked the distance.
The problem with tracking is that the outcome of success or failure is usually dramatic and most scenarios don't want to deal with it. If a party can't track the quarry, then you have to have this huge alternate path. If the party has a low chance at tracking, then you've got to account for the hours upon hours that are spend trying to track.
5. Some suggestions -
1. Set the conditions so that Taking 10 is not only an option, but the player automatically does so.
2. Allow the quarry to get lost (use the Rules section on getting lost), thus slowing down the distance traveled by the pursued.
3. Give out information about how far or far ahead the quarry is. This can help the Ranger to decide if a Forced March is advised.
4. Encourage the Ranger to seek aids. Choose spells that aid in tracking. Convince birds to scout ahead for him. etc.

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While the OP was a little garbled, I believe in the example only the tracker was mounted, since it refers to "the runner's destination." This means that while the initial DC is one higher for tracking a medium creature, the quarry has a harder time outpacing the tracker.
Really, once the ranger cannot Take-10, even if he just needs to roll an 11, he now fails 50% in one hour, 75% in two, 87.5% in three, and over 90% failure in four hours. Reacquiring the trail means he begins failing all over again. The villain will be getting really far away every time the ranger blows it, so it really does become impossible without Take-10.
Depends on whether the goal is catching the villain or just following them home. Even if you fail to make progress half the time once you stop being able to take 10, you can still make progress. At 1/4 the speed of the quarry it's another 4 days before they get a fifth day ahead of you, increasing the DC again. Eventually the trail gets cold enough that you just can't follow it, but it's not time to give up as soon as you start losing the trail.
So let's assume (for now) the Ranger's moves at the Ranger's full speed, not the mounted Ranger's full speed. A human Ranger moves 24 miles a day. So after three days, even tracking at full speed, the Ranger is 48 miles (another two days travel) behind and losing ground...and that's assuming the Ranger never has to roll.
So how far can a Ranger realistically move in a day if they roll better than a 10 every mile? It's looking like about 4 hours per 3 miles. Which means in a 24 hour period, the Ranger would only get 12 miles with no sleep.
The 24 mile number for a day of overland travel (12 miles/day at half speed) assumes 8 hours of travel with time for rest and sleep, not a forced march.

DM_Blake |

NN, it's worse than you say.
You have your example of the ranger losing 105 hours in 3 days. But 105 hours is actually 4 days and 9 hours. PLUS the 3 days he wanted to be actually following the tracks. So it takes him 7 days and 9 hours to cover the three-day journey. It's really several more hours since we need a couple more recursions on the remaining failed checks, so I'll round up 13 more hours and call it an even 8 days.
8 days to cover the ground the quarry covered in 3, so the ranger is 5 days behind.
But wait, there's more!
Every time the ranger loses ONE full day, the DC gets harder which increases his fail rate and adds more hours to the trip. This math is getting irritating now. I think I need excel or something to figure it out. By the time we get to the last few checks when the ranger is certainly 5 (probably more) days behind, his check is so hard he's only making it 1/4 of the time, meaning three lost hours for every one he makes, losing even more time, making the check even harder, and falling further behind.
In fact, if the original DC was too high to Take-10 but the ranger needed only an 11, all the above math applies and it will take over 10 days to track the enemy. But if the ranger really needed, say, a 13 instead of just an 11, it's just about guaranteed he'll be over a week behind and the DC will now be so high he cannot do it on a natural 20.
(The OP's ranger can Take-10 if the ground is firm and there are no poor conditions to make it harder, but only for the first few days, after which the DC gets high enough that he needs to start rolling)

Sundakan |

There is a reason this. this, and this is on the Ranger list. =)
Now depending on his Wis he probably only gets one of those per day, but Nature's Paths especially would put time very much on his side.
It evens the pursuit rate at a base level, and if the party Wizard were kind enough to lend him a Pearl of Power or something, Deadeye's Lore would make this a short chase.

N N 959 |
There is a reason this. this, and this is on the Ranger list. =)
Now depending on his Wis he probably only gets one of those per day, but Nature's Paths especially would put time very much on his side.
It evens the pursuit rate at a base level, and if the party Wizard were kind enough to lend him a Pearl of Power or something, Deadeye's Lore would make this a short chase.
The problem with the spells available is that they only last 1 hour/level. At 4th level, that's not much help of one has to track for days. Nature's Path should not be helpful. It gives you the shortest route through the wilderness. That is not going to be the path you need to follow unless you know where your quarry is headed.

Sundakan |

Sundakan wrote:The problem with the spells available is that they only last 1 hour/level. At 4th level, that's not much help of one has to track for days. Nature's Path should not be helpful. It gives you the shortest route through the wilderness. That is not going to be the path you need to follow unless you know where your quarry is headed.There is a reason this. this, and this is on the Ranger list. =)
Now depending on his Wis he probably only gets one of those per day, but Nature's Paths especially would put time very much on his side.
It evens the pursuit rate at a base level, and if the party Wizard were kind enough to lend him a Pearl of Power or something, Deadeye's Lore would make this a short chase.
Nature's Path just makes whatever path you happen to be walking as easy as a highway.
The guy only has a 15 minute head start on him.
Through the forest, the quarry is moving at half speed, while he will be moving at full (half speed by tracking). Worst case, the man retains a 15 minute lead into the night.
Or they catch him in like a half hour if they can use two of the spells above.

N N 959 |
While the OP was a little garbled, I believe in the example only the tracker was mounted, since it refers to "the runner's destination." This means that while the initial DC is one higher for tracking a medium creature, the quarry has a harder time outpacing the tracker.
Let's look at the OP again:
Ok, I'm GMing a 4th level ranger with +7 Survival tracking a guy moving at full speed on a horse through the wilderness. The runner's destination is days away, but he only departed about 15 minutes prior, and with a tracker moving at half speed (the ranger's half speed or the ranger's horse's half speed?), this "chase" could potentially last many days.
Seems pretty clear the runner is moving at "full speed" on a horse and the ranger is moving at "half speed" on a horse.
The 24 mile number for a day of overland travel (12 miles/day at half speed) assumes 8 hours of travel with time for rest and sleep, not a forced march.
My example is assuming the Ranger cannot Take 10 and has to roll. So if we assume the Ranger will fail on 10 or lower, then on average, they are spending an hour every after every successful mile. To put it another ways, the Ranger rolls and succeeds and then travels a mile (20 minutes)> He then rolls and fails spending an hour and rolls again and succeeds and travels another mile (1:40 minutes elapsed). He then fails his roll, spends an hour and then succeeds and travels another mile, failing his roll and loses another hour.. So that's 4 hours passed and three miles traveled. It would thus take 15 hours to travel 12 miles, only 4 of which would be spent actually traveling. So it looks like the Ranger would get sleep.
This is a simplification and is based on expected outcome.

N N 959 |
Nature's Path just makes whatever path you happen to be walking as easy as a highway.
That's not what the spell says.
The target instinctively knows the shortest, easiest, and fastest way through the wilderness. For the purpose of determining overland speed, the target treats any trackless terrain as though there were a trail or road, and any terrain with a road or trail as though there were a highway.
Because you are taking the shortest route through the forest, you get to treat it as being tracked. In other words, the game is simulating the effect of a shortcut by simply changing the movement modifier. That does not mean anywhere you go is tracked. Only if you are moving through the forest. When you are tracking someone, you don't take the shortest path through the forest.
Or they catch him in like a half hour if they can use two of the spells above.
Unless a player knows he will be tracking someone, there is like a zero percent chance someone would have any one of those spells memorized. Now, maybe they could buys scrolls....

Hugo Rune |

Some good points have already been made. Some things are little vague in the OPs post, so I'm assuming that
- both the ranger and the runner are on light horses and so have the same movement rate
- the ground is firm and so the DC to track a Horse (Large creature) is 14.
With a 15 minute head start, even if the chase is across trackless plains (the terrain where the spotting distance is best) then the runner is 4950 feet (0.93 miles) away assuming the horse is walking. Further if the rider started running or hustling. The furthest something can be spotted according to the environment rules is 1440 feet. So the chase is an out-of-sight chase from the beginning unless the GM decides otherwise.
The chaser cannot track if hustling as the -20 penalty is too high, so the runner cannot easily be caught by moving faster.
The chaser cannot catch the runner if moving at half speed. Taking half speed movement through wilderness terrain the runner will travel 160 miles in 8 days. After 17 days the chaser will have travelled an average of 97 miles and the trail will have gone cold (rolling a 20 is not good enough). This whole chase can be narrated instead of doing a single roll.
If the chaser is moving at full speed, then there is the chance of a standard chase. Taking the same assumptions as above, there is a 60% chance that the Ranger can follow the trail for the next mile. As long as the survival check is made a variant of the evasion and pursuit rules might be used, substituting Ride skill checks for Dex checks. Each +1 over the other equating to a minute gained or lost in the pursuit. The pursuit is over when the chaser loses the trail or decides to drop to half speed.
Alternatively, you could prepare a grand overland chase as the runner may slow down, take breaks etc if they think they are in the clear.

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Weirdo wrote:While the OP was a little garbled, I believe in the example only the tracker was mounted, since it refers to "the runner's destination." This means that while the initial DC is one higher for tracking a medium creature, the quarry has a harder time outpacing the tracker.Let's look at the OP again:
Opening Post wrote:Ok, I'm GMing a 4th level ranger with +7 Survival tracking a guy moving at full speed on a horse through the wilderness. The runner's destination is days away, but he only departed about 15 minutes prior, and with a tracker moving at half speed (the ranger's half speed or the ranger's horse's half speed?), this "chase" could potentially last many days.Seems pretty clear the runner is moving at "full speed" on a horse and the ranger is moving at "half speed" on a horse.
If the person being chased is on a horse, they're a rider, not a runner.
I think it's meant to be parsed like: "Ok, I'm GMing a 4th level ranger with +7 Survival (tracking a guy moving at full speed) on a horse through the wilderness."
As opposed to: "Ok, I'm GMing a 4th level ranger with +7 Survival (tracking a guy moving at full speed on a horse) through the wilderness."
If both tracker and quarry were mounted, I'd expect to see the first sentence refer in some way to plural horses as opposed to just "a horse."
Could be wrong, but I definitely think it's not clear that there's two horses involved.
My example is assuming the Ranger cannot Take 10 and has to roll. So if we assume the Ranger will fail on 10 or lower, then on average, they are spending an hour every after every successful mile. To put it another ways, the Ranger rolls and succeeds and then travels a mile (20 minutes)> He then rolls and fails spending an hour and rolls again and succeeds and travels another mile (1:40 minutes elapsed). He then fails his roll, spends an hour and then succeeds and travels another mile, failing his roll and loses another hour.. So that's 4 hours passed and three miles traveled. It would thus take 15 hours to travel 12 miles, only 4 of which would be spent actually traveling. So it looks like the Ranger would get sleep.
This is a simplification and is based on expected outcome.
You said "So how far can a Ranger realistically move in a day if they roll better than a 10 every mile?" so I thought you were talking about successes (at half speed for tracking).
PRD wrote:The target instinctively knows the shortest, easiest, and fastest way through the wilderness. For the purpose of determining overland speed, the target treats any trackless terrain as though there were a trail or road, and any terrain with a road or trail as though there were a highway.Because you are taking the shortest route through the forest, you get to treat it as being tracked. In other words, the game is simulating the effect of a shortcut by simply changing the movement modifier. That does not mean anywhere you go is tracked. Only if you are moving through the forest. When you are tracking someone, you don't take the shortest path through the forest.
I disagree. It says the shortest, easiest, and fastest way through the wilderness, not just the shortest route. That could refer to knowing where the easiest place to cross a stream is instead of spending time searching for a spot to ford, or knowing how to avoid roots and rocks and minor hazards that would trip you up, not just to having magic mapquest giving you a route plan. And it says that you apply the benefits when determining overland speed - which is exactly what we're all doing with the "you can move 12 miles in a day" thing.

Andostre |

I meant "runner" as in the guy running away, not necessarily referring to the physical act of running. Sorry for the confusion.
The guy fleeing is on a horse moving at full speed, and the ranger, well, he could ride his horse if he wanted, but when I posted the OP, I wasn't sure if a tracker could follow tracks from horseback, although this was mostly due to my pre-conceived notions of tracking (from encountering trackers on foot in various media). I accept that you can track while mounted as per the rules.
And, yes, both parties' horses have the same speed.
Thanks to all for confirming that I wasn't over-thinking the rules, in this case. I probably will handwave the rolls based on the near-inevitable outcome (not from what I prefer, but the obvious outcome that the quarry will make it to his destination before the ranger catches up to him).
I also enjoyed reading the discussion that resulted from my question. I agree with the statement that implied that using the Survival skill to follow tracks wasn't designed to handle longer distances such as this scenario. I also think it's interesting that most APs/modules seem to resolve the tracking in a single skill roll.

N N 959 |
I posted the OP, I wasn't sure if a tracker could follow tracks from horseback, although this was mostly due to my pre-conceived notions of tracking (from encountering trackers on foot in various media). I accept that you can track while mounted as per the rules.
The Ranger can be on horseback, but the rules clearly state it is the ranger's speed that matters for the penalties.
You move at half your normal speed while following tracks (or at your normal speed with a –5 penalty on the check, or at up to twice your normal speed with a –20 penalty on the check).
"You" is the tracker and "your normal speed" is not your speed while mounted. I posted a bunch of rhetorical questions for discussion, but the way to explain the rule is probably done best by example:
There's a maximum rate you can walk and read a book at the same time. That rate is a result of your body mechanics. If you walk too fast you can't hold the book steady. However, in RL, that rate is different for everyone. A person with long legs will naturally walk faster than a person with short legs given the same requirement to hold the book steady.
So for tracking if your base speed is increased, then you follow the tracks at a faster clip than someone with a lower base speed.
Your inclinations about following tracks are spot on. A tracker would do his/her best tracking on foot unless the tracks were so obvious anyone could follow them...like footprints in the snow. But this is a game so realism is kicked in the crotch repeatedly.

N N 959 |
I disagree. It says the shortest, easiest, and fastest way through the wilderness, not just the shortest route. That could refer to knowing where the easiest place to cross a stream is instead of spending time searching for a spot to ford, or knowing how to avoid roots and rocks and minor hazards that would trip you up, not just to having magic mapquest giving you a route plan. And it says that you apply the benefits when determining overland speed - which is exactly what we're all doing with the "you can move 12 miles in a day" thing.
The word "through" tells us that this occurs when you're moving from Point A to Point B. When you're tracking, you don't know where you are going. It is nonsensical to say you are taking the shortest route through the forest while tracking someone who did not take the shortest route.
Look, if the spell simply said you get to treat trackless forest as tracked, or if it says the ground is magically made to be tract, I'd agree with you, but it specifically says you are taking the "shortest route" which implies your ability to travel faster is a result of magically knowing the actual shortest path from A to B.
I realize that people in the rules forum like to ignore any part of a rule or spell that isn't strictly mechanical, but nothing in the books says we are allowed to do that. The point of the rules is to tell us how to play the game. ALL text that gives us guidance on how to play the game is thus part of the rules.

Andostre |

Andostre wrote:I posted the OP, I wasn't sure if a tracker could follow tracks from horseback, although this was mostly due to my pre-conceived notions of tracking (from encountering trackers on foot in various media). I accept that you can track while mounted as per the rules.
The Ranger can be on horseback, but the rules clearly state it is the ranger's speed that matters for the penalties.
PRD on Survival wrote:You move at half your normal speed while following tracks (or at your normal speed with a –5 penalty on the check, or at up to twice your normal speed with a –20 penalty on the check)."You" is the tracker and "your normal speed" is not your speed while mounted. I posted a bunch of rhetorical questions for discussion, but the way to explain the rule is probably done best by example:
There's a maximum rate you can walk and read a book at the same time. That rate is a result of your body mechanics. If you walk too fast you can't hold the book steady. However, in RL, that rate is different for everyone. A person with long legs will naturally walk faster than a person with short legs given the same requirement to hold the book steady.
So for tracking if your base speed is increased, then you follow the tracks at a faster clip than someone with a lower base speed.
Your inclinations about following tracks are spot on. A tracker would do his/her best tracking on foot unless the tracks were so obvious anyone could follow them...like footprints in the snow.
But that argument arbitrarily ties a PC's movement speed to the rate at which they read tracks. In your argument, humans, elves, and dwarves tracking from the back of a horse move at 15 feet per round while tracking versus gnomes and halflings on horseback move at 10 feet per round.
I realize that their are problems with both sides of the interpretation; I'm just saying that it's not as "clear" as you say. I'm going with the mount's speed, justifying it by saying that if a tracker is mounted, they are relying on their mount to navigate forward, allowing them to focus on interpreting the tracks. (Even that justification still has problems, but it's just not worth it to me to delve too deep into rules that aren't up to the level of realism needed to fully resolve the issue.)
But this is a game so realism is kicked in the crotch repeatedly.
True dat.

N N 959 |
But that argument arbitrarily ties a PC's movement speed to the rate at which they read tracks. In your argument, humans, elves, and dwarves tracking from the back of a horse move at 15 feet per round while tracking versus gnomes and halflings on horseback move at 10 feet per round.
Not sure what you mean by "arbitrarily." All the rules are essentially arbitrary.
Yes, your race/base speed determine what how fast you can move and not incur a penalty. Yes, it's different for different races and that is by design because Pathfinder uses this same mechanic in other places. Let's look at one specific case:
You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty.
This is the same exact language used for tracking. Would you argue that a halfling on the back of a horse gets to move faster without penalty than a hafling on foot?
I realize that their are problems with both sides of the interpretation;
There aren't any problems with my interpretation, it's the same language as Stealth. In fact there are many places where the rules use the "half your speed" clause and none of them allow you to substitute your mounted speed. The fact that several posters are simply choosing to ignore the rules doesn't make the rules ambiguous.

Dave Justus |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

I have always assumed that half speed for tracking basically meant half the time you are more or less stopped looking for tracks, and the other half the time you are moving (at full speed, but only half the time, so net half speed.) Given this assumption, mounted or Barbarian fast speed would apply and it makes sense.
Generally speaking, without a higher skill, even a small lead is insurmountable if the quarry is going to be fleeing for a long distance, as others have pointed out, you will eventually lose them.
It is possible though to cheat sometimes. He has been heading west for the last hour, and I know that a day to the west, the only way across the river Plot Device is the bridge of Adventure Hook, so I'll hustle there, either to beat him or if not, at least pick up his trail without losing so much ground. Obviously tons of other possibilities apply, depending on what you know about the region and the likelihood of various destinations for what you are pursuing.
Of course, this sort of has risks. If you guess wrong you have probably completely lost the trail.

Dave Justus |

Would you argue that a halfling on the back of a horse gets to move faster without penalty than a hafling on foot?
I would argue that the horse is moving and thus it is the one that needs to make a stealth roll.
Although I could perhaps see the halfing hiding behind saddle bags on the horse or something, it wouldn't be moving at all in that case. Theoretically one could hide on a galloping horse. I'll admit though that the rules for stealth (such as they are) are somewhat beyond my comprehension and I usually just fudge a lot of it when I'm gming.

N N 959 |
It is possible though to cheat sometimes. He has been heading west for the last hour, and I know that a day to the west, the only way across the river Plot Device is the bridge of Adventure Hook, so I'll hustle there, either to beat him or if not, at least pick up his trail without losing so much ground. Obviously tons of other possibilities apply, depending on what you know about the region and the likelihood of various destinations for what you are pursuing.Of course, this sort of has risks. If you guess wrong you have probably completely lost the trail.
In movies, this happens all the time and is known as the:
"We'll head him off at the pass,"
technique. In such situations, nature's path would definitely apply.

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The word "through" tells us that this occurs when you're moving from Point A to Point B. When you're tracking, you don't know where you are going. It is nonsensical to say you are taking the shortest route through the forest while tracking someone who did not take the shortest route.
"Through" does not necessarily require a known destination. I can say "I walked through the gardens for hours" when referring to a casual, exploratory ramble with no particular destination.
Look, if the spell simply said you get to treat trackless forest as tracked, or if it says the ground is magically made to be tract, I'd agree with you, but it specifically says you are taking the "shortest route" which implies your ability to travel faster is a result of magically knowing the actual shortest path from A to B.
No, it doesn't say "shortest route," it says "shortest, easiest, fastest way." "Way" is broader than "route." Eg, "the easiest way to travel downriver is on a raft" or "the fastest way to cycle up a hill is by changing into a lower gear."
I realize that people in the rules forum like to ignore any part of a rule or spell that isn't strictly mechanical, but nothing in the books says we are allowed to do that. The point of the rules is to tell us how to play the game. ALL text that gives us guidance on how to play the game is thus part of the rules.
I'm not ignoring the entry text, I'm just not reading extra restrictions into it. The first sentence of the spell is really quite general in a way that allows the mechanics text to apply to all situations involving overland travel.

N N 959 |
"Through" does not necessarily require a known destination. I can say "I walked through the gardens for hours" when referring to a casual, exploratory ramble with no particular destination.
The language speaks to purpose and intent. If the purpose and intent was that you could walk around the forest and reduced penalty, they wouldn't be talking about "shortest, fastest, easiest." You can't walk directionless on the "fastest" route. It's nonsensical.
No, it doesn't say "shortest route," it says "shortest, easiest, fastest way." "Way" is broader than "route."
No, it's not.
: the course traveled from one place to another : route "asked the way to the museum"
a way that someone or something regularly travels along
I'm not ignoring the entry text, I'm just not reading extra restrictions into it
That's the point of the text, to provide us with the restrictions, ignoring the restrictions imposed by the text is ignoring the text.
You want to pretend that the spell is simply increasing your overland speed. But the spell tells you why your overland speed is increased....because you are taking the fastest route/way to get through the wilderness. The spell doesn't actually change the forest. If you are just meandering aimlessly through the forest, you don't get the benefit. When you follow tracks, you must follow the route the tracks take, which is by default not the fastest way through the forest.

Dave Justus |

Nature's path doesn't have any requirement that a particular destination be set when cast. You could cast it and travel to one place and then another if you had time in the day, for example.
There isn't a minimum distance on this either. So it certainly can be used to increase speed in the wilderness following tracks even with the most restrictive definition of way or route since you can choose the route to be from one footprint to the next.

N N 959 |
N N 959 wrote:Would you argue that a halfling on the back of a horse gets to move faster without penalty than a hafling on foot?I would argue that the horse is moving and thus it is the one that needs to make a stealth roll.
Either way, you aren't using the halfling's stealth modifier with the horse's rate of travel. Either the horse rolls for stealth or the halfling gets off and walks at 1/2 speed (of course the horse would have to roll to avoid being detected regardless)..

N N 959 |
Nature's path doesn't have any requirement that a particular destination be set when cast. You could cast it and travel to one place and then another if you had time in the day, for example.
That's a strawman. No one said the destination had be known at any particular time. You get the benefit when you start on the path from A to B.
There isn't a minimum distance on this either. So it certainly can be used to increase speed in the wilderness following tracks even with the most restrictive definition of way or route since you can choose the route to be from one footprint to the next.
What you're imagining is essentially integration, dividing up the path into infinitely small steps and choosing the quickest way on each increment. The problem is that you're following a path that isn't the shortest way from any two points.
Imagine the path you are tracking someone is like a string through the forest that you can only see one step at a time. There is no shortest path when following the string. The path you take is exactly the same as the string's path...that's what it means to track someone...to follow their route...not your own route. You don't get to follow "nature's path" you have to follow your quarry's path.
At this point, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Dave Justus |

At this point, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.
You are probably correct.
I think you are vastly over-reading the importance of 'shortest' in a line that is essentially fluff text about the spell, and also ignoring the easiest, and fastest.
For the most part, not having a road doesn't necessarily mean you are going the long way around, it means that you are tripping on roots, ducking branches etc. Nature's path lets ignore all of that. It isn't just a compass, it is an instinctual understanding of the natural things that would slow down your movement letting you move as though they weren't there.
If you are familiar with the Dresden Files, there is a great example of this in Skin Game (I think) where Harry is able to move really fast on his Island because of his connection with Demonreach. He knew where to step so he would get the best footing and not trip, when to duck around branches all of that. Yes, he also knew where his destination was, but that wasn't the primary thing that made him go faster. Someone trying to follow right behind him would make substantially less progress.
Mechanically, the spell simply lets you treat trackless terrain as a road for determining overland speed as long as you are in the correct setting.
Note that it also lets you treat a road or trail as though it was a highway, which is pretty much exactly what your string analogy is. Even though you are following the trail's path, not 'nature's path' the spell improves your overland travel speed.

N N 959 |
I think you are vastly over-reading the importance of 'shortest' in a line that is essentially fluff text about the spell, and also ignoring the easiest, and fastest.
And First, the logic that applies to "shortest" also applies to "easiest" and "fastest". The tracks don't lead you on the fastest, or easiest or shortest route with each given spell. Second, I would submit you're completely ignoring it as it appears to have no effect how you adjudicate the spell.
Stuff...
Look, I play two Rangers, so it's not going to kill me if GMs everywhere let this apply to tracking.

Dave Justus |

Dave Justus wrote:I think you are vastly over-reading the importance of 'shortest' in a line that is essentially fluff text about the spell, and also ignoring the easiest, and fastest.And I would submit you're completely ignoring it as it appears to have no effect how you adjudicate the spell.
Fair enough. Just explain to me how you square your view with the stated fact in the spell that it improves travel down to trail to be like travel down a highway.

N N 959 |
spell that it improves travel down to trail to be like travel down a highway.
That's a fair question. The spells says,
For the purpose of determining overland speed, the target treats any trackless terrain as though there were a trail or road, and any terrain with a road or trail as though there were a highway
The key is the use of the word "terrain". When you enter terrain with roads or trails, you still get the benefit of knowing the fastest, easiest, shortest route through that terrain. I suspect you're reading it as "when you follow a road or trail you get to treat it as a highway." I would not award the benefit if you specifically"follow" the trail or road, because then your simply following the trail or the road. I would award the benefit for traveling through terrain with the trail or road. However, I think whether one is specifically following the road or simply traveling through the terrain that contains it is a situational question.
If the Ranger said I am going from A to B, and road or trails lied along that path, the Ranger gets the benefit because nature's path makes use of the trail or road in some unspecified manner.
If the Ranger said I am following the trail from A to B, then I would not award the benefit, because the Ranger is indicating a desire to following the trail and not take nature's path. But let's be clear, unless there is some specific reason the Ranger wanted to follow the trail, for example to find a lost item, then there's no reason why the Ranger has to explicitly follow the trail. So in most cases, the Ranger gets the benefit.
And let me point something out, the benefit is specifically to "overland speed." So despite your attempt to reduce the benefit to infinitely small routes, you get no benefit in tactical movement. Which tells us it's not about what's going on in the next 10 ft, but in the next mile.

Dave Justus |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

I 'terrian' isn't defined as a region of some set size. I'm not in a 'hill terrian' next to a 'jungle terrain' i'm in trackless jungle or on a jungle trail. It seems bizarre to me that you think travel is faster if a trail exists somewhere nearby, but if we actually follow the trail we slow down again.
In event we clearly see this very differently.

N N 959 |
Nature's path doesn't have any requirement that a particular destination be set when cast. You could cast it and travel to one place and then another if you had time in the day, for example.
There isn't a minimum distance on this either. So it certainly can be used to increase speed in the wilderness following tracks even with the most restrictive definition of way or route since you can choose the route to be from one footprint to the next.
So I'm going to come back to this with something I should have posted before and hinted at in my last response.
Let's look at the Movement section in the rules:
Movement
There are three movement scales, as follows:Tactical, for combat, measured in feet (or 5-foot squares) per round.
Local, for exploring an area, measured in feet per minute.
Overland, for getting from place to place, measured in miles per hour or miles per day.
So a spell that only works on "overland speed" and overland speed only does not have any effect if you are not moving on that time/distance scale. So your supposition that the route can be from one footprint to the next is demonstrably incorrect. It cannot. In addition, overland travel is explicitly about "place to place."
Nature's Path does nothing for the beneficiary unless he or she has moved for at least an hour. That suggests the shortest route text is really about finding the shortest route during your hour long travel from "place to place."

Wheldrake |

Irrespective of the relative speed of the quarry and tracker, there are several far more important factors to take into account when trying to determine the success or failure of a pursuit situation.
1) The tracker is a ranger, a skilled outdoorsman familiar with the type of terrain, if not the actual particulars of this area of terrain. But is the quarry similarly skilled(and familiar with the terrain), less skilled or more skilled than the tracker? This will impact not only the quarry's speed, but his chance of getting lost or of finding hidden features (refuge, hiding spot, paths, etc).
2) What condition is the quarry in? Wounded? Fatigued? Disoriented? Frightened? In despair of escaping certain death? Some of those conditions will directly impact the quarry's ability to keep going at full speed, hour after hour.
3) How certain is the quarry that pursuit will continue? He might just feel safe enough to stop at some point, either just to catch his breath, bed down for the night or go back to whatever he was doing beforehand.
4) Does the quarry have a safe place, lair or allies nearby? The tracker might even wind up in an ambush, if he's too focused on the tracks themselves to watch out for other dangers.
5) Does the quarry blunder into some hazard - quicksand, a cliff face, a sinkhole, a beartrap, some wandering monsters, etc?
If I were preparing this situation as a DM, I would make up a random events table with various modifiers to (attempt to) take into account at least some of the relevant circumstances.

N N 959 |
I 'terrian' isn't defined as a region of some set size.
It always helps to go back to the actual rules:
Terrain: The terrain through which a character travels affects the distance he can cover in an hour or a day (see Table: Terrain and Overland Movement). A highway is a straight, major, paved road. A road is typically a dirt track. A trail is like a road, except that it allows only single-file travel and does not benefit a party traveling with vehicles. Trackless terrain is a wild area with no paths.
When we are talking about "overland" travel, the distance covered is in miles. So any "terrain" that applies to your travel must cover at least the majority of your travel or that terrain modifier wold not apply unless the method is to apply the most severe terrain modifier possible. So while there is no specific size identified, we know the "terrain" must be over an area measured in miles, not feet.
I'm not in a 'hill terrian' next to a 'jungle terrain' i'm in trackless jungle or on a jungle trail.
It seems you are arguing semantics. "Jungle" is the terrain and all terrains are divided up into three subcategories for the purpose of overland travel. A trail in the jungle does not consume the entire distance you can travel in an hour, in all directions.
It seems bizarre to me that you think travel is faster if a trail exists somewhere nearby, but if we actually follow the trail we slow down again.
Only because you're not seeing it from a broader perspective. A trail or a road up a steep hill does not go straight up the hill, it cuts back. The fastest route is not to follow the road, but but to cut across it, using it when it goes in the direction your traveling, and leaving it when it does not. Following the road/trail up the hill is not the shortest path.

Dave Justus |

So any "terrain" that applies to your travel must cover at least the majority of your travel or that terrain modifier wold not apply
I agree. So if you are going to use the base rate of 'trail' for Nature's Path, at least the majority of your travel actually has to be on the trail. In other words, you are following the trail. Nature's Path makes that faster because magic. Even if your trail is a perfect straight line to your destination, the spell makes it faster. I'll certainly accept that in some cases natures path could theoretically take you off a trail for a short time, but it certainly is not a requirement of the spell, and in the vast majority of cases roads and trails exist because they are the best way to get between two places. If there was a better one, then that is where the trail would be.
From your previous post:
So a spell that only works on "overland speed" and overland speed only does not have any effect if you are not moving on that time/distance scale.
That doesn't follow at all. You can travel at 60 miles per hour for less than an hour, I actually do it every day.
In addition, if you dogmatically insist that overland travel can only apply if you travel for at least an hour, then it would seem in many terrains tracking is impossible for a human ranger. Since you move at your overland travel rate, but you have to make a check every mile, it becomes impossible to get to the next place you have to make a tracking roll if you adjusted speed is greater than one mile an hour.
It also seems odd to me that based on your interpretation, if I was an hour away from my destination and cast the spell it would fail, since making me get there sooner would mean that overland travel couldn't apply.
This is all of course absurd, but no more absurd (and it logically follows from) your assertion that unless you move for at least an hour you can never use overland travel rate.
I do want to say that although we are disagreeing I am enjoying the discussion. You are presenting your points in a straight forward manner and keeping a pleasant demeanor. I certainly appreciate that.

Pizza Lord |
...a 4th level ranger with +7 Survival tracking a guy moving at full speed on a horse through the wilderness. The runner's destination is days away, but he only departed about 15 minutes prior, and with a tracker moving at half speed (the ranger's half speed or the ranger's horse's half speed?), this "chase" could potentially last many days.
Okay, assuming the horses in this example move at 50. 2 days of traveling means the quarry's destination is approximately 80 miles away (40 miles per day, assuming a typical full movement speed with no risking your mount). This shouldn't really change anything if the movement speeds are different (for instance if the horses move at 40 each or even 30.) The miles needed to travel will be shorter, but you say two days away, I'm going with that.
So obviously, ranger is not going to catch quarry, take quarry 2 days to reach destination. Will take ranger 4 days to reach destination. Simple enough if nothing goes wrong.
Okay, so ranger has a +7 to Survival. This is really low for a 4th level ranger. I mean, assuming 1 rank, +3 class skill, that's 4, +2 for half ranger level added to tracking and that's +6 minimum. That's assuming it's not a favored enemy being tracked, no skill points in Survival after 1st level and no Wis bonus. You say +7... okay +7.
As others have said, tracking a large creature (horse) over regular ground, DC 14. Assuming you are going to get a 10 at least. You are really don't need to check unless you're distracted or getting attacked while doing it. You pass.... every mile... and you'll get half a day of tracking done (20 miles). The next day, the DC increases by +1 to DC 15. You don't fail. You are halfway to your quarry's destination after 2 days. The next day is DC 15 again (because that trail was only made 1 day ago) and the 4th day is DC 16. Ranger won't fail, unless there's an extraneous reason to this example. He will reach the destination in 4 days.
It's not really....that complicated for such a short tracking period.
The quarry's had 2 days to do things while you're getting there, assuming he knows someone might be coming. Maybe he has left by then to elsewhere (and the tracking continues) or what-have-you. I mean, maybe if the quarry suspects he's being followed he has a reasonable time to send out thugs or deterrents to intercept the ranger...
Only if the ranger tries to move faster does he risk failure and at that point... that's probably what's going to happen, but that's how things work.

Hugo Rune |

Back to the OP's post. Given the assumptions I had made earlier in this thread, had the Ranger had another 2 ranks in survival then he would have been able to track at full speed by Taking 10 and thereby turn it into a chase.
Aid another would grant that +2. With an assumed three other party members the chance of at least one of them making A DC10 survival roll would be fairly high (87.5% assuming no modifiers). A group roll every mile may be an option and even if the trail is lost it the chances are can be found again with an hour's lost time. So even though the chance of catching the runner is minimal, the chance of following is much higher. On average the trail would be lost 3 times a day, but if a couple of group members have wisdom bonuses then this could easily drop to twice a day. With an hour of forced march every day (the horse automatically fails its check) to catch up one hour is lost every day. With 8 days travel they should be able to stay close enough to follow the runner to his destination.
The two options then appear to be to narrate the tracking or to design a chase so there is a chance of catching up en route. As someone has pointed out above, the tracking party must follow the same route so there are no chase options, but you could include a lack of options for places to camp as an example to vary things up. Also bear in mind a camp fire is quite easy to spot from a long distance at night if not hidden. Is the runner taking precautions or do they believe they have escaped? An easily imaginable scenario could be, the party has found the runner but they can only engage whilst fatigued or even exhausted.

N N 959 |
]I agree. So if you are going to use the base rate of 'trail' for Nature's Path, at least the majority of your travel actually has to be on the trail. In other words, you are following the trail.
The majority of your travel on the trail would not constitute following the trail in my parlance. Following the trail is every step you take is on the trail or road.
Nature's Path makes that faster because magic. Even if your trail is a perfect straight line to your destination, the spell makes it faster.
No, that's not what the spell says. The spell does not make "a trail" faster. Let's look again at the language
...and any terrain with a road or trail as though there were a highway.
I believe there's a categorical difference between allowing one to travel faster on terrain with a road or trail and letting one travel faster on a trail or road. Why? Because of my example about a trail that goes up hill and uses switchback to do it. Since the spells is concerned with distance in miles, then we can imagine that over the course of that mile, the spell allows you to veer off the trail at the critical moments.
Let me put it another way, nature's path gives the target knowledge about the specific trail that you need to follow to get from your starting point to your destination. If you don't follow the trail which you "know" is the fastest, you don't get the benefit. Nature's path does not give you a benefit when you are required to follow a specific route. That's one reason why you don't get the benefit on a tactical level because you are picking the route. If the spell improved one's tactical speed, then I would agree with you. Because it specifically is limited to overland travel, then, in my interpretation, that mandates you are not allowed to follow any specific route other than the one that you magically "know" is the best route.
I'll certainly accept that in some cases natures path could theoretically take you off a trail for a short time, but it certainly is not a requirement of the spell, and in the vast majority of cases roads and trails exist because they are the best way to get between two places. If there was a better one, then that is where the trail would be.
Trails and roads are almost never the shortest route between two places unless you're talking about open desert. Roads and trails are built/created along the easiest path that the road can be built and such that things can still use the road. That's why roads zig zag through mountains and trails zig zag up and down hills. A road over a mountain range is almost always built over the lowest point that one can cross over the mountains, the "pass" as it is called.
From your previous post:
N N 959 wrote:So a spell that only works on "overland speed" and overland speed only does not have any effect if you are not moving on that time/distance scale.That doesn't follow at all. You can travel at 60 miles per hour for less than an hour, I actually do it every day.
Let me clarify because my statement does leave room for being misconstrued. You only get the benefit when your are using overland speeds. So whether you are traveling for an hour or 20 minutes, the only time the benefit arises is if your overland speed is used to determine how far you travel or how long it takes you to travel. So no, you don't have to travel an actual hour, but you have to be traveling such that you're using miles / hour to determine distance/time traveled.
In addition, if you dogmatically insist that overland travel can only apply if you travel for at least an hour
I didn't dogmatically insist that. Nevertheless, I explained that statement above.
It also seems odd to me that based on your interpretation, if I was an hour away from my destination and cast the spell it would fail, since making me get there sooner would mean that overland travel couldn't apply.
If you are using the overland table to determine your arrival time, then it applies. If you are using local or tactical tables, the spell does nothing.
This is all of course absurd, but no more absurd (and it logically follows from) your assertion that unless you move for at least an hour you can never use overland travel rate.
You're taking the statements out of context and trying to argue them. The context is that the spell only applies when using overland travel. If you're not traveling for long enough or far enough to use that table, then the spell does nothing. The logic being that you aren't traveling long or far enough to have amassed any substantive benefit. So traveling from one tree to the next, you aren't any faster with the spell than without unless those trees are miles apart. Why? Maybe because the shortest, fastest, easiest path is obvious when I'm traveling 10ft.