Does Redirect Attack work with Weapon Finesse?


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Hi all,

I tried to search to see if this has been answered before, and I don't think it has (please forgive me if I'm wrong).

My question is about Redirect Attack:

Prerequisite(s): Dex 15, Int 15, Dodge.

Benefit: Once per turn, when an opponent only you threaten fails an attack against you, you can redirect the attack to target another foe. The new target must be adjacent to you and within reach of the opponent that missed you. Attempt a combat maneuver check; if the result exceeds both the Combat Maneuver Defense of the opponent who missed you and the Armor Class of the new target, the attack strikes and deals its normal damage.

So here's my question: With actions such as trip and disarm, it's possible to apply Weapon Finesse since you can argue the character is using their weapon to conduct the maneuver. Is it safe to assume that I can use Weapon Finesse for the combat maneuver check required for Redirect Attack then? For example, I'm imagining a character deflecting the blow with his/her blade, almost like a parry, and redirecting it.

Thanks for your help!


Redirect Attack does not seem to imply it is a maneuver using your weapon, so no, it does not appear you could use your dex modifier instead of your strength. You would need to pick up the feat Acrobatic Maneuvers.

Though, I'm honestly not sure where your version of that ability is coming from.

The Rogue talent redirect attack is as follows:

Quote:
Redirect Attack (Ex): Once per day, when a rogue with this talent is hit with a melee attack, she can redirect the attack to strike at an adjacent creature with a free action. The creature targeted must be within melee reach of the attack that hit the rogue, and the creature that made the attack against the rogue must make a new attack roll against the new target.

It doesn't involve you as a player doing anything.

Edit: Found the feat Redirect Attack in Melee Tactics Toolbox

But no, you wouldn't get to use weapon finesse on it. Combat Maneuver Bonus normally only applies strength, and only in the case of maneuvers that use weapons can you apply the bonus from weapons such as weapon finesse or weapon enhancement bonus. Since nothing in the ability implies it is performed with a weapon, I see no reason to allow it to be used with dex.


This is up to the GM.

I've done this before. IRL. It's fairly standard stuff in Aikido. It involves moving out of the attack (which uses your legs and body, not your weapon), checking your opponent's weapon (fist, knife, whatever - this uses your hand) then redirecting your opponent's attack (which uses uses your hand) Though a lot of Aikido training includes using a jo to perform the same exact techniques, so whatever you do with your hands in Aikido can be done with a jo, so by extension into Pathfinder, any weapon.

Therefore as a GM, I would rule that you don't use your weapon (or Weapon Finesse) on the CMB vs. CMD check but you DO use it on the CMB vs. AC check. Since it's one roll, this means applying two sets of modifiers, which is a little extra work; I'd have the player write both modifiers next tot he ability and apply them separately.

As for game balance, it seems very fair. The opponents probably have lower CMD scores than AC (well, for any opponent that actually wears armor). So using weapon modifiers against CMD turns it into auto-success (too easy) but not using them against AC could be auto-fail (too hard).

I'm sure not every GM would agree with this.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Claxon wrote:

Redirect Attack does not seem to imply it is a maneuver using your weapon, so no, it does not appear you could use your dex modifier instead of your strength. You would need to pick up the feat Acrobatic Maneuvers.

Though, I'm honestly not sure where your version of that ability is coming from.

The Rogue talent redirect attack is as follows:

Quote:
Redirect Attack (Ex): Once per day, when a rogue with this talent is hit with a melee attack, she can redirect the attack to strike at an adjacent creature with a free action. The creature targeted must be within melee reach of the attack that hit the rogue, and the creature that made the attack against the rogue must make a new attack roll against the new target.

It doesn't involve you as a player doing anything.

Edit: Found the feat Redirect Attack in Melee Tactics Toolbox

Agile Maneuvers not Acrobatic Maneuvers :)


Claxon wrote:

Redirect Attack does not seem to imply it is a maneuver using your weapon, so no, it does not appear you could use your dex modifier instead of your strength. You would need to pick up the feat Acrobatic Maneuvers.

Though, I'm honestly not sure where your version of that ability is coming from.

The Rogue talent redirect attack is as follows:

Quote:
Redirect Attack (Ex): Once per day, when a rogue with this talent is hit with a melee attack, she can redirect the attack to strike at an adjacent creature with a free action. The creature targeted must be within melee reach of the attack that hit the rogue, and the creature that made the attack against the rogue must make a new attack roll against the new target.
It doesn't involve you as a player doing anything.

That's true. But do ANY of the combat maneuvers that allow you to substitute DEX explicitly state you're using a weapon for the maneuver? Isn't it intentionally left out so a character could complete the maneuver armed or unarmed? Do trip or disarm expressly dictate you need to be using a weapon?

Anyway, thanks for your answer! My version of the feat comes from the Pathfinder Player Companion: Melee Tactics Toolbox.


OldSkoolRPG wrote:
Agile Maneuvers not Acrobatic Maneuvers :)

Touche

LTD wrote:

That's true. But do ANY of the combat maneuvers that allow you to substitute DEX explicitly state you're using a weapon for the maneuver? Isn't it intentionally left out so a character could complete the maneuver armed or unarmed? Do trip or disarm expressly dictate you need to be using a weapon?

Anyway, thanks for your answer! My version of the feat comes from the Pathfinder Player Companion: Melee Tactics Toolbox.

Yes, the developers have explicitly stated you can use a weapon to perform Trip, Disarm, and Sunder combat maneuvers.


I would probably allow it.

There are plenty of scenes in swashbuckler and pirate films where the hero diverts an enemy's thrust just past him and into another enemy with his rapier/cutlass.

It's like a combination of Parry with Redirect Attack using a weapon.

That said, nothing in the feat allows for the substitution without taking Agile Manuevers.


I think that if this gets noticed it could result in the same sort of ruling that was made on the original version of Crane Style feat that allowed you to deflect 1 melee attack a round being combined with anything that was activated on a miss, and then they created a the hit, miss by deflection, and actually missed classing to tell us that those abilities weren't activated by the deflection.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Does Redirect Attack work with Weapon Finesse? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.