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No. Reminds me of Pugwumpi's.
How would you use it with PF? Would you replace all the little +1 and +2 bonuses you with PF? Or just for some things? How would it work with other PF rules, like ability damage/drain and the different conditions? How does it work without Bounded Accuracy?
I really like 5th Edition, but miss all the class options from PF.
I like the idea behind encapsulating circumstance bonuses under one easily remembered mechanic. However, I really don't like how it's implemented in 5e. I think rolling twice and taking the better/worse result is too strong, and I hate that multiple advantages/disadvantages do not stack.
I implemented advantage/disadvantage in my RPG project as giving a +1 or -1 to a roll. For Pathfinder, I think it would be too difficult to implement. You would have to systematically replace every combat and circumstance in the game, and not all of them are equal.
After running the numbers myself a while ago, and I believe verified by the math of others, the "roll two, take the best/worst" mechanic of advantage/disadvantage comes out to be about a +/- 4.5 bonus/penalty, at least within 5E's bounded accuracy numbers and DCs.
I think I read somewhere (I forget where, but 99% sure it's on Paizo.com) that if you need to roll a 10 or 11 to succeed, the Advantage/Disadvantage bonus/penalty is around +4 or +5, but as the goal of the roll gets higher or lower, the bonus/penalty decreases, to around +1 at DC 19 or 20/1 or 2.
The average result of using the better of 2d20 is ~13.8.
AnyDice gives us the statistics. The average is 13.82. To roll a 10 or higher, it basically gives you a +5
I think I read somewhere (I forget where, but 99% sure it's on Paizo.com) that if you need to roll a 10 or 11 to succeed, the Advantage/Disadvantage bonus/penalty is around +4 or +5, but as the goal of the roll gets higher or lower, the bonus/penalty decreases, to around +1 at DC 19 or 20/1 or 2.
Yeah, it's a very significant feature in situations close to a coin toss (the equivalent of a flat +5 if you require an 11 on the d20 to succeed).
It becomes less and less significant the greater or lower your chance of success (so if you're almost guaranteed to succeed or fail (dis)advantage makes almost no difference - less than the "DM's friend" +2).
2d20 doesn't translate cleanly into a flat bonus. The best parts IMO of 2d20 are the reduced chance of blowing a check because you rolled low, and that you get two chances to roll a crit. On the other hand, if you chart the possible results you end up with a curve, and you can't actually roll higher than a 20. It favors results in the middle of the curve. Rolling once with a +4 or +5 also reduces the change of blowing a check due to a low roll, but allows for the possibility of results higher than 20.
Ultimately, my recommendation is to use it in your group for a probation period. If you decide it is too disruptive to your game you can always get rid of it. Your players might love it because it succeeding becomes easier and it's just fun to run twice and use the better. On the other hand, if some monster crits increase the number of PC deaths, that attitude will change quickly.
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How would you use it with PF? Would you replace all the little +1 and +2 bonuses you with PF? Or just for some things? How would it work with other PF rules, like ability damage/drain and the different conditions? How does it work without Bounded Accuracy?
I really like 5th Edition, but miss all the class options from PF.
Exactly, which is why I intend to go back to Pathfinder; 5e is a good game but the classes are very generic and there's too few options for them. However, I really enjoy the Advantage / Disadvantage mechanic and wanted to implement it in my game.
The classes are also very modular. If it's a homebrew game, you can make up new archetypes and even classes. I've made a bunch of homebrew 5th Edition stuff.
The races are also pretty modular, and backgrounds introduce (or at least mechanize) a new variable for customization.
To the OP - no.
Advantage/Disadvantage is the very mechanic that completely turned me off 5e.
To the OP - no.
Advantage/Disadvantage is the very mechanic that completely turned me off 5e.
May I ask why?
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I keep chuckling when I see Pathfinder players' reaction to Adv/Dis.
Okay, so it's been established by someone's math earlier that at most, Adv/Dis is roughly comparable to a +/-5, but only if you were at a coin flip's odds to begin with, and it scales down to +/-4 and lower as you get further from that 50/50 setup.
Now look at the kinds of things that Adv/Dis replaces from Pathfinder:
• Being prone, which in PF gives you a +/-4 to your AC and a -4 to attacks.
• Attacking while invisible, which in PF gives you a combination of +2 to hit and targeting FF AC (so anywhere from a net +2 to a net +8 or higher).
• Getting attacked while invisible, which in PF is a 50% miss chance in addition to the attack roll.
• Attacked while paralyzed, which in PF reduces your DEX to 0 (so usually a net -5 AC minimum) and also enables a save-or-die.
And then it's all "I won't play 5E because Adv/Dis is super OP".
:/
I'm not a fan of rolling an extra die abilities in general but allow them in games I run because they are a mechanic used in many abilities.
I just cant get past the swingyness that I get from the effect. Both dice separately have an equal chance of rolling any number, so why not just give the apparent bonus to a single die.
I initially thought it was going to be less tactical, but there are just different rules for tactics. Also, since there are fewer AoO triggers, you can do fancy things in combat without being punished.
Also, a lot of combat actions that require feats in PF (Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Bull Rush, Trip, etc.) do not require them in 5th Ed,
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I just cant get past the swingyness that I get from the effect. Both dice separately have an equal chance of rolling any number, so why not just give the apparent bonus to a single die.
The key difference between rolling two dice or just granting a bonus is that the latter alters what the minimum and maximum results are, while the former does not.
Also, I suspect that you either don't know what "swingy" means or else don't have much experience with how 5E's bounded accuracy actually plays out and are assuming it works about like a Pathfinder reroll mechanic.
I keep chuckling when I see Pathfinder players' reaction to Adv/Dis.
Okay, so it's been established by someone's math earlier that at most, Adv/Dis is roughly comparable to a +/-5, but only if you were at a coin flip's odds to begin with, and it scales down to +/-4 and lower as you get further from that 50/50 setup.
Now look at the kinds of things that Adv/Dis replaces from Pathfinder:
• Being prone, which in PF gives you a +/-4 to your AC and a -4 to attacks.
• Attacking while invisible, which in PF gives you a combination of +2 to hit and targeting FF AC (so anywhere from a net +2 to a net +8 or higher).
• Getting attacked while invisible, which in PF is a 50% miss chance in addition to the attack roll.
• Attacked while paralyzed, which in PF reduces your DEX to 0 (so usually a net -5 AC minimum) and also enables a save-or-die.And then it's all "I won't play 5E because Adv/Dis is super OP".
:/
Isn't the Adv/Dis mechanic identical to the effects of Fortune and Misfortune Hexes? I mean PF has it built into the game already, but just use it differently.
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Isn't the Adv/Dis mechanic identical to the effects of Fortune and Misfortune Hexes?
Only superficially. But the context of how the rest of the system's math is set up makes a huge difference.
It's like if you tried to stop a car on the interstate by standing in traffic, and I tried to corral a toddler in a foot-powered Fisher-Price plastic car by putting myself in front of it. We could both accurately say "I tried to stop a car by standing in front of it", and someone who heard only that description might then surmise that our experiences were identical. That person's assessment would be about as correct as when someone sees that both Adv/Dis and (mis)fortune say the same thing and thinks those are identical.
Also, I suspect that you either don't know what "swingy" means or else don't have much experience with how 5E's bounded accuracy actually plays out and are assuming it works about like a Pathfinder reroll mechanic.
How I FEEL about the mechanic is that I would rather have one die roll for a situation rather than two at the same time.
And suspecting that someone doesn't know what "swingy" means seems really condescending.
It can sometimes take a couple of minutes for an attacker to work out what his to hit modifier is and 8th level particularly with the effects of spells, feats, terrain blah blah blah.
Rolling two dice definitely does not slow the game down.
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And suspecting that someone doesn't know what "swingy" means seems really condescending.
Why would pointing out the potential misuse of a word be condescending? You made an incorrect statement, and I posed two possible explanations: that you misunderstand the label you applied, or you misunderstand the thing you were labeling.
How are people ever supposed to productively discuss disagreements if mentioning the mere possibility of error is considered taboo?