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I love how people just conveniently talk about Bruce Lee wanting to share the beauty of his culture with non-asians and if it was okay with Bruce then it's OKAY.
Yeah... I really do. It's when people outside of the culture try to point out how wrong it is for anyone besides that culture to experience it... that's what I don't believe in. If one of the greatest Asian martial artists wants us to experience it and revel in it... than who else SHOULD we listen to?
There are a lot of people who love telling people they should be offended... when those people are actually glad for the attention. In Michigan we've had the Chippewa tribe stand up and tell people to BACK OFF the Central Michigan University Chippewas. They love the school, they love the recognition and they have a great respectful relationship with the school.
Still there are always someone saying it's wrong and needs to stop.
Yes Bruce Lee wanted to share his culture with gweilos. But remember this was when he first came back here from Hong Kong. I say BACK because Bruce was born HERE. He was "American". He had an open mind and an open heart but America really only cared, again, about what they could sell, who they can use to sell it and who they can sell it to.
He was born in San Francisco, but he was raised in Kowloon, Hong Kong and came back to America when he was 18.
So when Warner Brother's burned him over that KUNG FU pitch, he picked up and went to make movies in Hong Kong where there was no issue of an asian man as a movie lead or heroic lead.\It really wasn't until he became a huge success over there that Warner wanted to make movies with him. But don't get it twisted, he was angry and a little bit bitter over his treatment which was why he pulled up stakes and moved his family to Hong Kong to make movies.
Context is important.
yeah, he was angry... but he got over it pretty quickly. He was burned and went back to Hong Kong in 1971 and became an instant success... Warner Bros made up with him and produced Enter the Dragon by 1972... and he stopped production on Game of Death to film it. He died in 1973. While in Hong Kong he filmed with Jim Kelly, Chuck Norris and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar... so it's not like he got burned by the white americans and took his ball and went home abandoning his idea of sharing his culture with the world. He just took an easier route.
As such he was really one of the driving forces behind the western world's fascination with eastern martial arts. Hong Kong had filmed a lot of martial arts movies before him... but he made martial arts mainstream, brought attention to Chuck Norris (already a karate Champion), worked with black actors in leading roles...
Guy was awesome.
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Personally I just can't understand all the racism accusations with this show. Isn't it racist to say Asian people are naturally better at martial arts than anyone else? That's like saying African Americans are naturally better at basketball or Latinos are naturally better at soccer. How good you are at something depends on talent, upbringing, and the work you put into it. No race is naturally good or bad at anything.
I've met plenty of Asian people who know less about martial arts than me and latinos who know squat about soccer.
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Personally I just can't understand all the racism accusations with this show. Isn't it racist to say Asian people are naturally better at martial arts than anyone else? That's like saying African Americans are naturally better at basketball or Latinos are naturally better at soccer. How good you are at something depends on talent, upbringing, and the work you put into it. No race is naturally good or bad at anything.
I've met plenty of Asian people who know less about martial arts than me and latinos who know squat about soccer.
you're missing the point of most of the accusations entirely. It's the background of the character entirely,not that he does martial arts. It's a common racist trope that appears in a lot of fiction from the time period.
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Was it cultural appropriation when Jackie Chan taught Jaden Smith Kung Fu in a movie called the Karate Kid? ;)
Tons of non-western cultures adopt things from the west. It's flattering.
Anyways, all this racism/cultural appropriation talk is sucking the fun out of this thread. I propose we go back to talking about a guy with a magic fist that punches people. :)
As such he was really one of the driving forces behind the western world's fascination with eastern martial arts. Hong Kong had filmed a lot of martial arts movies before him... but he made martial arts mainstream, brought attention to Chuck Norris (already a karate Champion), worked with black actors in leading roles...
I feel like once you hit a certain youthful age he was completely irrelevant and I kid you not Spider Man was more relevant.
As such he was really one of the driving forces behind the western world's fascination with eastern martial arts. Hong Kong had filmed a lot of martial arts movies before him... but he made martial arts mainstream, brought attention to Chuck Norris (already a karate Champion), worked with black actors in leading roles...I feel like once you hit a certain youthful age he was completely irrelevant and I kid you not Spider Man was more relevant.
In what way?
Was it cultural appropriation when Jackie Chan taught Jaden Smith Kung Fu in a movie called the Karate Kid? ;)
Tons of non-western cultures adopt things from the west. It's flattering.
Anyways, all this racism/cultural appropriation talk is sucking the fun out of this thread. I propose we go back to talking about a guy with a magic fist that punches people. :)
It would have been if Jackie Chan's role was acted by Lee Majors. Bruce Lee's Kung Fu was created specifically to center around an asian character... which got played by a white dude. That's apropriation. When someone is bumped from playing an asian character. BECAUSE HE'S TOO ASIAN FOR THE PART. The assumption being that only a white actor could be suited.
It would have been if Jackie Chan's role was acted by Lee Majors. Bruce Lee's Kung Fu was created specifically to center around an asian character... which got played by a white dude. That's apropriation. When someone is bumped from playing an asian character. BECAUSE HE'S TOO ASIAN FOR THE PART. The assumption being that only a white actor could be suited.Was it cultural appropriation when Jackie Chan taught Jaden Smith Kung Fu in a movie called the Karate Kid? ;)
Tons of non-western cultures adopt things from the west. It's flattering.
Anyways, all this racism/cultural appropriation talk is sucking the fun out of this thread. I propose we go back to talking about a guy with a magic fist that punches people. :)
So a black kid learning martial arts from an Asian is okay but a white kid learning martial arts from Asians is not?
I wasn't talking about Bruce Lee I agree it was dumb to use David Carradine so I don't know why you brought that up. I was talking about Iron Fist.
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It would have been if Jackie Chan's role was acted by Lee Majors. Bruce Lee's Kung Fu was created specifically to center around an asian character... which got played by a white dude. That's apropriation. When someone is bumped from playing an asian character. BECAUSE HE'S TOO ASIAN FOR THE PART. The assumption being that only a white actor could be suited.Was it cultural appropriation when Jackie Chan taught Jaden Smith Kung Fu in a movie called the Karate Kid? ;)
Tons of non-western cultures adopt things from the west. It's flattering.
Anyways, all this racism/cultural appropriation talk is sucking the fun out of this thread. I propose we go back to talking about a guy with a magic fist that punches people. :)
This has been the root of the debate.
None of that applies to Iron Fist. He was always a non-Asian character now played by a non-asian actor.
So as long as the Asian characters that teach him Kung fu are still Asian... than nothing about Iron Fist should be considered Apropriation.
In what way?As such he was really one of the driving forces behind the western world's fascination with eastern martial arts. Hong Kong had filmed a lot of martial arts movies before him... but he made martial arts mainstream, brought attention to Chuck Norris (already a karate Champion), worked with black actors in leading roles...I feel like once you hit a certain youthful age he was completely irrelevant and I kid you not Spider Man was more relevant.
Through the weirdest collaboration I ever heard of Marvel literally helped define a genre with Spiderman. Something that I grew up intimately watching in the 90s and is still weirdly relevant.
Yeah I don't trust critics in the least. I don't want to go as far as calling critics human refuse but really why should I value their opinion over anyone else's. I'll wait and see them for myself.
Also expecting only people of a certain skin color to embrace a cultures idea's IS racist in and of itself. only people of Asian descent can learn martial arts? now that's racist.
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Yeah I don't trust critics in the least. I don't want to go as far as calling critics human refuse but really why should I value their opinion over anyone else's. I'll wait and see them for myself.
Also expecting only people of a certain skin color to embrace a cultures idea's IS racist in and of itself. only people of Asian descent can learn martial arts? now that's racist.
where has anyone said no white guys can learn martial arts? At least in this thread? Because I haven't seen it. Are they talking about other criticisms outside this thread?
I am yes.
Really kind of a general irritation getting out at all the complaining about him being a white guy knowing martial arts when he is in fact a white guy that knows martial arts in the comics and has been since his creation.
I am yes.
that's dumb.
I am yes.that's dumb.
The fact that that is an argument people are trying?
I think ill clarify a bit to sense their is confusion.
I guess the idea is its cultural appropriation for someone to learn about another culture and embrace its idea's. I fail to see how embracing another culture and learning from it is a bad thing.
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There's really no way to win these types of arguments and appease everyone. If Marvel had cast an Asian dude, then everyone would say it's racist that they picked an Asian guy to be the martial artist. Or they would've complained that the character isn't a woman, or isn't Latino or transgender or insert race/gender/religion/sexual orientation here.
Whiners just love to crap all over everything in the entire world.
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Marvel thought it would be a big controversy when they announced that the cast for Wakanda would be predominantly black. As it should be.
Personally though, I expect one Heimdall-important character to be non-black.
The comic book character doesn't generally have a white sidekick/best friend like War Machine is to Iron Man or Falcon is to Captain America, so I'm not sure that there's really a place for a token white dude.
Not that I wouldn't be somewhat amused by such a character, particularly if he's kind of a hapless point-of-view nebbish that everything has to be explained to, giving him a reason to exist, so that the natives of Wakanda have a reason to explicate stuff that any Wakandan would obviously already know and not need to talk about...
As for Iron Fist. White, Asian, culturally-appropriate, culturally-appropriating, I don't care as much as I do whether or not it's good. If the white guy cast turns out to be a great choice, yay. If he's a dud, boo.
I can overlook him not being physically spot on. I liked Dolph Lundgen's blonde Punisher. I liked Hugh Jackman's way-too-tall way-too-good-looking Wolverine. I liked both Magneto's, even though neither have anything like the comic-book characters improbably buff (for a man pushing 70! Is he Schwarzenegger?) physique.
So if Danny was cast as a rich Asian-American or Asian-Asian kid who had no real backing in the culture of K'un Lun (which, even if he grew up in Tibet, would be the logical case, since K'un Lun is not Tibet, or China, or Hong Kong, or Seoul, or Tokyo, or Singapore), I would care mostly whether or not the actor (and story, and martial arts goodness) was good. Heck, cast a woman as Iron Fist. I'm not *that* hung up on whether or not the character from the TV series looks like the comic book character, since 90% of comic-book characters have unrealistic bodies (and kind of the same square-jawed face) anyway. (Again, see Magneto, who's ridiculously buff for an eighty-year old dude...)
And if it's not good, I'll just go watch Into the Badlands again, which has glorious wuxia martial arts goodness, delivered by a mix of Asian and Caucasian actors.
No, that was just dumb.Was it cultural appropriation when Jackie Chan taught Jaden Smith Kung Fu in a movie called the Karate Kid? ;)
indeed that movie was awful.
I am yes.that's dumb.The fact that that is an argument people are trying?
I think ill clarify a bit to sense their is confusion.
I guess the idea is its cultural appropriation for someone to learn about another culture and embrace its idea's. I fail to see how embracing another culture and learning from it is a bad thing.
that people are trying, because as many examples as they are of cultural appropriation in the world, this isn't one of them. This is mighty whitey specifically.
So if Danny was cast as a rich Asian-American or Asian-Asian kid who had no real backing in the culture of K'un Lun (which, even if he grew up in Tibet, would be the logical case, since K'un Lun is not Tibet, or China, or Hong Kong, or Seoul, or Tokyo, or Singapore), I would care mostly whether or not the actor (and story, and martial arts goodness) was good. Heck, cast a woman as Iron Fist. I'm not *that* hung up on whether or not the character from the TV series looks like the comic book character, since 90% of comic-book characters have unrealistic bodies (and kind of the same square-jawed face) anyway.
Hey, I like that Danny looks like he could be Dio's twin brother. Sue me.
And if it's not good, I'll just go watch Into the Badlands again, which has glorious wuxia martial arts goodness, delivered by a mix of Asian and Caucasian actors.
Glad to see all the love for this show.
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Yeah, there's a LOT of various backgrounded Iron Fists, a few of them are showcased in The Immortal Iron Fist.
And, as vile a comic as the rest of it is, The Living Weapon does a good job of setting up the NEXT Iron Fist as a woman from K'un L'un.
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I think there's a sort of argument over cultural appropriation in the comic / show that is being misconstrued by some people. Danny is not appropriating anyone's culture, he was raised there and has every right to participate in and experience that culture. In this case it's more of a meta-controversy about whether or not the premise itself is cultural appropriation - after all, the only reason Danny is given a pass is because the writers had him be raised among their culture. The question is, does that excuse work for the people who created the character? Are the writers committing cultural appropriation by giving their white male protagonist an excuse so that he can learn their ways and become the hero who saves them? Is the act of making a white guy the hero of this story, itself, appropriation?
That's a tough question to answer. Personally I know next to nothing about the character and the writers who made the comic so I can't really say much on the matter. What I will say is this - it is ultimately up to the people to whom the culture belongs to decide whether it is being appropriated or not, especially since some people have risen up to "defend" other cultures only to be told the thing they were defending was meant to be shared. It's a bit complicated due to the fictional nature of this work but it's pretty obviously derivative of eastern cultures so you may start there.
I think there's a sort of argument over cultural appropriation in the comic / show that is being misconstrued by some people. Danny is not appropriating anyone's culture, he was raised there and has every right to participate in and experience that culture. In this case it's more of a meta-controversy about whether or not the premise itself is cultural appropriation - after all, the only reason Danny is given a pass is because the writers had him be raised among their culture. The question is, does that excuse work for the people who created the character? Are the writers committing cultural appropriation by giving their white male protagonist an excuse so that he can learn their ways and become the hero who saves them? Is the act of making a white guy the hero of this story, itself, appropriation?
That's a tough question to answer. Personally I know next to nothing about the character and the writers who made the comic so I can't really say much on the matter. What I will say is this - it is ultimately up to the people to whom the culture belongs to decide whether it is being appropriated or not, especially since some people have risen up to "defend" other cultures only to be told the thing they were defending was meant to be shared. It's a bit complicated due to the fictional nature of this work but it's pretty obviously derivative of eastern cultures so you may start there.
Its not a coincidence that the people who complain loudest about cultural appropriation are those from western nations who can afford to attend a 30-60k a year school.
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On the other hand, it's probably no coincidence that the people who complain loudest about any accuse of cultural appropriation also complain very loud about Miles Morales, Captain America Sam Wilson and female Thor.
[sarcasm]I mean, come on, if Col. Nick Fury suddenly played by Sam Jackson isn't a prime example for cultural appropriation, then what really is, right? [/sarcasm]
This said, I think it's important to remember that not every instance of possible cultural approbation is really that, but a lot of times it is just catering to your audience. If your audience is mainly Red Martians from Barsoom, they'll probably have a hard time to identify with a story centering around a Green Martian, even if it is Tars Tarkas we're talking about. So if they are telling a story about Green Martians, it may be a good idea to let the audience look through the eyes of a Red Martian, becuase that's something the audience can relate to and identify with (and yeah, there's a reason why Burroughs used John Carter as his lense for the audience to look through.
I'm actually not sure about how much of this applies to the origin of Danny Rand, and I also don't know how diverse the readership at that time was. My guess would be that it was mainly written for a white, male audience, so I think that may have been the real reason behind the decision to make him a whitey, especially as they already had created their asian martial artist with Shang Chi a year before.
I agree wormy Its like how every movie feels it has to have a way for the audience to relate to the main character by having him be human or have very human traits even when its space aliens, robots or some other such creature. I personally never felt like it was that necessary to make superman be a il-legitimate father to make it be easier to relate to him but Hollywood man who knows. Wall-E is a good example of a non-human main character. That movie was good.
You didn't like it? To each his own then, but he was a non-human main character but yeah they did add human traits to him. Godzilla I suppose might be one hard to find one that doesn't. I mean humans are writing them and you should write about things you know.
Except Sam Fury isn't race bent. Also I love how you're conflating diversity with Marvel's second foray into unpleasant facism storylines.
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On the other hand, it's probably no coincidence that the people who complain loudest about any accuse of cultural appropriation also complain very loud about Miles Morales, Captain America Sam Wilson and female Thor.
[sarcasm]I mean, come on, if Col. Nick Fury suddenly played by Sam Jackson isn't a prime example for cultural appropriation, then what really is, right? [/sarcasm]
This said, I think it's important to remember that not every instance of possible cultural approbation is really that, but a lot of times it is just catering to your audience. If your audience is mainly Red Martians from Barsoom, they'll probably have a hard time to identify with a story centering around a Green Martian, even if it is Tars Tarkas we're talking about. So if they are telling a story about Green Martians, it may be a good idea to let the audience look through the eyes of a Red Martian, becuase that's something the audience can relate to and identify with (and yeah, there's a reason why Burroughs used John Carter as his lense for the audience to look through.
I'm actually not sure about how much of this applies to the origin of Danny Rand, and I also don't know how diverse the readership at that time was. My guess would be that it was mainly written for a white, male audience, so I think that may have been the real reason behind the decision to make him a whitey, especially as they already had created their asian martial artist with Shang Chi a year before.
Another problem with creating characters in the 30s-early 70s was the editors/publishers didn't want non-white, non-male characters.
As to the examples of racebent characters, we are seeing where it has worked and where it hasn't. Sam Fury worked. Because: a) Sam Jackson, and b) he was still basically the same character.
Miles Morales worked because a)people who read Peter Parker - not Spider-Man could still follow Peter in his own book(s), and b) while he was his own character, he was still faithful to the legacy. (So...
wow.
Are you even reading Sam Wilson? Because this makes it sound like you really aren't.