Marvel's Iron Fist


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I do like how it was usually a set up to a joke as well.

Leaping Crane Strike, Four Finger Kill, Shaolin Leg Sweep...Bronx Headbutt.


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All I know is some one here is a better martial artist than I.


Set wrote:

I love one of Iron Fist's corny habits from when Byrne was writing him, of describing / naming the various martial arts moves he was performing, usually with over-the-top names like 'Five Dragon Kick' or whatever. I'm not sure I'd want to see that in the series, anymore than I really wanted to see Luke Cage running around with the tiara and yellow shirt for half the season of his show. :)

I would actually love both of those. I could see him comparing moves with someone like in the Princess Bride. "Ahhh I see you are using Benetti's defense..." "I thought it fitting the rocky terrain..."

And I am pro-Luke wearing yellow at ALL times. if he won't go full on costume... at LEAST give him a yellow shirt.


phantom1592 wrote:
Set wrote:

I love one of Iron Fist's corny habits from when Byrne was writing him, of describing / naming the various martial arts moves he was performing, usually with over-the-top names like 'Five Dragon Kick' or whatever. I'm not sure I'd want to see that in the series, anymore than I really wanted to see Luke Cage running around with the tiara and yellow shirt for half the season of his show. :)

I would actually love both of those. I could see him comparing moves with someone like in the Princess Bride. "Ahhh I see you are using Benetti's defense..." "I thought it fitting the rocky terrain..."

And I am pro-Luke wearing yellow at ALL times. if he won't go full on costume... at LEAST give him a yellow shirt.

Not sure if he says it outloud, but all of the revealed episode titles so far seem to be the names of particular martial art moves named similar to how you describe.


OUCH. Looks like I was right to be worried...


Sounds like Colleen Wing is the only redeemable feature from the review, Shin.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
ShinHakkaider wrote:
OUCH. Looks like I was right to be worried...

Meh. After I read something like this...

Quote:
After three straight creative successes, three above-average character introductions, the partnership between Marvel and Netflix was due for a dud.

I pretty much ignore the rest of the article. The show might be good, it might be bad, but this review was just looking for an excuse to hate it.


Dammit!

They had a pretty solid pre-made plot to go with, too. They could have done that whole deal where Iron Fist straight up murdered peeps at the start of his books and didn't see himself as a hero, he jut kept getting swept up in things in his attempts to get revenge on Howard Meachum. Combine that with being pushed out by Ward and Joy because they think he murdered Howard. If they wanted the Hand, make that ninja one of the Hand instead of Master Khan's minion. Then flow from there.

What went wrong?

Knight who says Meh wrote:


I pretty much ignore the rest of the article. The show might be good, it might be bad, but this review was just looking for an excuse to hate it.

It's not the only "meh" review it's gotten though. And all of them citing the obvious: Finn Jones is not convincing as the world' greatest martial artist, since he has zero martial arts training and doesn't even have the physique to back it up.


They should have got the guy that played Ken in Streetfighter: Assassin's Fist, it was released on youtube. It's cheesy but the guy is a killer martial artist.


Set wrote:
I love one of Iron Fist's corny habits from when Byrne was writing him, of describing / naming the various martial arts moves he was performing, usually with over-the-top names like 'Five Dragon Kick' or whatever. I'm not sure I'd want to see that in the series, anymore than I really wanted to see Luke Cage running around with the tiara and yellow shirt for half the season of his show. :)

This is why I like Fists of The NorthStar.

They have the most crazy names for their moves. Yes it is cheezy beyond belief but there is something appealing there.

"Humane Face Breaking Fist"

Humane?

Scarab Sages

Yeah, those reviews have me worried.

Dark Archive Vendor - Fantasiapelit Tampere

Nerdist had more positive review; still critizing it and raising worries over it but it did not say it was complete dud or anything.

Silver Crusade

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I'll reserve judgement after seeing all of the episodes, because from what I can tell, the reviewers I've seen talking about it have seen 3-6 of them so far. And while I'll admit that six episodes is a lot to view, the next one could bring everything back together. We'll see, I guess.


We'll see.

Right now I'm almost wondering why we didn't get Justin Hartley. I mean yeah DC kind of owns his soul, but I think he'd be a pretty decent Danny Rand.


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Knight who says Meh wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
OUCH. Looks like I was right to be worried...

Meh. After I read something like this...

Quote:
After three straight creative successes, three above-average character introductions, the partnership between Marvel and Netflix was due for a dud.
I pretty much ignore the rest of the article. The show might be good, it might be bad, but this review was just looking for an excuse to hate it.

this article reads like "An Unbiased Review of Firefly" by Freehold DM.

Seriously, did the reviewer get turned down for writing an episode of the series or something?


Freehold DM wrote:
Knight who says Meh wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
OUCH. Looks like I was right to be worried...

Meh. After I read something like this...

Quote:
After three straight creative successes, three above-average character introductions, the partnership between Marvel and Netflix was due for a dud.
I pretty much ignore the rest of the article. The show might be good, it might be bad, but this review was just looking for an excuse to hate it.

this article reads like "An Unbiased Review of Firefly" by Freehold DM.

Seriously, did the reviewer get turned down for writing an episode of the series or something?

Yeah it seemed overly snobby and bitter.


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Scott Adkins anyone? ;)

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Freehold DM wrote:
Knight who says Meh wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
OUCH. Looks like I was right to be worried...

Meh. After I read something like this...

Quote:
After three straight creative successes, three above-average character introductions, the partnership between Marvel and Netflix was due for a dud.
I pretty much ignore the rest of the article. The show might be good, it might be bad, but this review was just looking for an excuse to hate it.

this article reads like "An Unbiased Review of Firefly" by Freehold DM.

Seriously, did the reviewer get turned down for writing an episode of the series or something?

Ok, this, this....

I want to buy you a beer, or any kind of refreshing or intoxicating beverage of choice.


ShinHakkaider wrote:
OUCH. Looks like I was right to be worried...

"Danny comes across like a spoiled frat boy who took a comparative religion class and spends a few months picking up coeds by telling them he's totally into meditation and tai chi now."

LOL


Blayde MacRonan wrote:

"But wouldn't making him Asian perpetuate a stereotype?"

The problem is that the whole existence of Iron Fist centers white people in an culture where they shouldn't be centered. Its the same rational as to why people were angry off about the Egyptian God movie that starred a bunch of British actors. Or the movie that took place in ancient China and stared a Bostonian......

Quote:
So what happens when you get someone genuinely interested in the character enough to go back and find out more about him because "Finally... an asian-american character", only to find out that he never was one to begin with. How do you deal with that fallout?

People probably would be happy given that he's always been kind of a racist character.


Thomas Seitz wrote:
Sounds like Colleen Wing is the only redeemable feature from the review, Shin.

That makes sense because during the fight clip I saw at NYCC last year with her vs the cage fighters she looked like a fighter.

I'm still going to watch it but my expectations are reasonably lowered.


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Lemartes wrote:
Scott Adkins anyone? ;)

YAAAAASSSSSS.

BOYKA IS MOST COMPLETE FIGHTER IN THE WORLD.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Blayde MacRonan wrote:

"But wouldn't making him Asian perpetuate a stereotype?"

The problem is that the whole existence of Iron Fist centers white people in an culture where they shouldn't be centered. Its the same rational as to why people were angry off about the Egyptian God movie that starred a bunch of British actors. Or the movie that took place in ancient China and stared a Bostonian......

Quote:
So what happens when you get someone genuinely interested in the character enough to go back and find out more about him because "Finally... an asian-american character", only to find out that he never was one to begin with. How do you deal with that fallout?
People probably would be happy given that he's always been kind of a racist character.

I've read a lot of Iron Fist stuff at this point and I still haven't found the "racism" people keep talking about.

His parents died, he was adopted by Lei Kung, and raised by K'un L'un's ways.

"Cultural appropriation" claims = B$~+!#$%. Unless you want to tell, say, a white boy raised by an Asian family they should "act more white" (or an Asian one they should "act more Asian") so as to avoid appropriating the culture they were adopted by.

That seems to be the main leg people try to stand on, and nowhere in the books does Rand espouse the superiority of one culture over another, even after he is disillusioned by his former home not being as great a place as he thought (having a corrupt government). He doesn't discriminate against other races, either positively or negatively. He doesn't even spout off with any racist stereotype "Ancient Chinese secrets" or anything you could point to that makes the character racist.

Near as I can tell, being a white martial artist is taboo, and that's it?


MadScientistWorking wrote:

[The problem is that the whole existence of Iron Fist centers white people in an culture where they shouldn't be centered. Its the same rational as to why people were angry off about the Egyptian God movie that starred a bunch of British actors. Or the movie that took place in ancient China and stared a Bostonian......

And this is why I don't utterly dismiss the article/review. After the first couple paragraphs it was obvious that he was so upset over the concept of the Iron Fist character... that there is no way that they'd like the show. The early rant is all about how horrible the very concept is that he's disregarding the fact that the show is remarkably accurate to the source material.

That appeals to me greatly. It very well could suck, but I'll definitely give it a chance. As for the first 'dud', I still mark that up to Jessica Jones. I thought that was just terrible in any scene that Tennant wasn't in. And when the only redeeming quality is a psychotic super-rapist... that says something.


I think the "cultural appropriation" thing comes from the origin of the character (not his literary character, mind you. Iron Fist and Luke Cage were basically just representations of popular genres of the seventies. "Chop Socky" and "Blaxploitation" movies respectively.


Io9 also gave it a pretty bad review, and at least some of the common criticisms have nothing to do with cultural appropriation. Both of the reviews I have read for instance have panned the fight scenes in particular.

You do kind of have to view the whole thing, so it might be that some of the early stuff that people don't like is set up with pay outs later in the show.


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Knight who says Meh wrote:
I think the "cultural appropriation" thing comes from the origin of the character (not his literary character, mind you. Iron Fist and Luke Cage were basically just representations of popular genres of the seventies. "Chop Socky" and "Blaxploitation" movies respectively.

Both characters however became much more interesting than that over time. Pairing them together was really a stroke of genius. It shouldn't have worked, but they played off each other so well.


ShinHakkaider wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
Scott Adkins anyone? ;)

YAAAAASSSSSS.

BOYKA IS MOST COMPLETE FIGHTER IN THE WORLD.

I've yet to see a movie with him in it. I have seen youtube clips of him and he's probably one of the best movie martial artists around.

Dark Archive

I'm going to have to have a personal embargo on these reviews, they are too disheartening!

Iron Fist is easily my favorite of this current batch of Netflix Defenders, so I have high hopes for the show. Hopefully it's at least as good as Daredevil, etc.


Norman Osborne wrote:
Blayde MacRonan wrote:
if Daredevil and Jessica Jones are B-list characters, then Rand is definitely C-list.
I have to disagree. If Iron Fist is a C-list character, then a pre-Netflix Jessica Jones was Z-list...at best.

That's a fair assessment. Jones is Z-list. Or rather, she was until she got her own series.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Norman Osborne wrote:
Blayde MacRonan wrote:
if Daredevil and Jessica Jones are B-list characters, then Rand is definitely C-list.
I have to disagree. If Iron Fist is a C-list character, then a pre-Netflix Jessica Jones was Z-list...at best.
That's a fair assessment. Jones is Z-list. Or rather, she was until she got her own series.

IIRC, she debuted in her own series.


Lemartes wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
Scott Adkins anyone? ;)

YAAAAASSSSSS.

BOYKA IS MOST COMPLETE FIGHTER IN THE WORLD.

I've yet to see a movie with him in it. I have seen youtube clips of him and he's probably one of the best movie martial artists around.

I dunno...way too flashy and over-choreographed for me. Kinda reminds me of Jean Claude Van Damme.


Is it too late to hire Michael Dudikoff?


All I know is I still think Justin Hartley could have pulled it off.

Also Shin is right, her scene in the cage, great stuff.

Dark Archive Vendor - Fantasiapelit Tampere

I don't think the actor would change that much, it seems like the problems are in the script department and on the story side of things. Many people were ready to hate this show just for the actor, and those folks are gonna have good time ripping this show apart.

But it will not likely change anything. Finn is going to be Iron Fist, this is part of the MCU canon now. And if I know anything about studio business, this will not be seen as a failure due to casting, so changes in representation this will not make.

Oof. This whole pre-talk is just kinda depressing. I like to give everything a chance to make me enjoy it, be it movies or tv. So let's see if Iron Fist is really as bad critics make it out to be, or is it just the weakest link in Defenders but not that bad.


bugleyman wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
Scott Adkins anyone? ;)

YAAAAASSSSSS.

BOYKA IS MOST COMPLETE FIGHTER IN THE WORLD.

I've yet to see a movie with him in it. I have seen youtube clips of him and he's probably one of the best movie martial artists around.
I dunno...way too flashy and over-choreographed for me. Kinda reminds me of Jean Claude Van Damme.

Yeah I dont know what Van Damme movies you've been watching but "over-choreographed" isnt something I'd attribute to Van Damme at all.

Also, Van Damme lacks both Adkins broad skill set AND athleticism.

But hey to each his own I guess...


Lemartes wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
Scott Adkins anyone? ;)

YAAAAASSSSSS.

BOYKA IS MOST COMPLETE FIGHTER IN THE WORLD.

I've yet to see a movie with him in it. I have seen youtube clips of him and he's probably one of the best movie martial artists around.

If I had to recommend two of his I'd say UNDISPUTED 3 and NINJA II: SHADOW OF A TEAR. If you're going in expecting Shakespear then you're gonna be disappointed. If you're going in to see what a Euro martial arts action star is SUPPOSED TO BE? Then YES these are the movies to watch.

I think that the thing I like the most about these direct to video movies is that no one really expects a lot from them. And they're not great in the plot department or even the acting. But they're action movies and they do something ALOT of the big budget action movies DONT do well and that's ACTION. The bad guys in these movies aren't glass cannons, they're just as capable and tough as the hero is and that makes for good end boss fights.


ShinHakkaider wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
Scott Adkins anyone? ;)

YAAAAASSSSSS.

BOYKA IS MOST COMPLETE FIGHTER IN THE WORLD.

I've yet to see a movie with him in it. I have seen youtube clips of him and he's probably one of the best movie martial artists around.
I dunno...way too flashy and over-choreographed for me. Kinda reminds me of Jean Claude Van Damme.

Yeah I dont know what Van Damme movies you've been watching but "over-choreographed" isnt something I'd attribute to Van Damme at all.

Also, Van Damme lacks both Adkins broad skill set AND athleticism.

But hey to each his own I guess...

Agreed. Further, if he's too flashy and over-choreographed it's the choreographers fault not his. He has the skills to do less flashy stuff or the most flashy stuff possible.


ShinHakkaider wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
Scott Adkins anyone? ;)

YAAAAASSSSSS.

BOYKA IS MOST COMPLETE FIGHTER IN THE WORLD.

I've yet to see a movie with him in it. I have seen youtube clips of him and he's probably one of the best movie martial artists around.

If I had to recommend two of his I'd say UNDISPUTED 3 and NINJA II: SHADOW OF A TEAR. If you're going in expecting Shakespear then you're gonna be disappointed. If you're going in to see what a Euro martial arts action star is SUPPOSED TO BE? Then YES these are the movies to watch.

I think that the thing I like the most about these direct to video movies is that no one really expects a lot from them. And they're not great in the plot department or even the acting. But they're action movies and they do something ALOT of the big budget action movies DONT do well and that's ACTION. The bad guys in these movies aren't glass cannons, they're just as capable and tough as the hero is and that makes for good end boss fights.

Thanks, I will see if I can find one of those next time I buy some movies. :)


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Sundakan wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Blayde MacRonan wrote:

"But wouldn't making him Asian perpetuate a stereotype?"

The problem is that the whole existence of Iron Fist centers white people in an culture where they shouldn't be centered. Its the same rational as to why people were angry off about the Egyptian God movie that starred a bunch of British actors. Or the movie that took place in ancient China and stared a Bostonian......

Quote:
So what happens when you get someone genuinely interested in the character enough to go back and find out more about him because "Finally... an asian-american character", only to find out that he never was one to begin with. How do you deal with that fallout?
People probably would be happy given that he's always been kind of a racist character.

I've read a lot of Iron Fist stuff at this point and I still haven't found the "racism" people keep talking about.

His parents died, he was adopted by Lei Kung, and raised by K'un L'un's ways.

"Cultural appropriation" claims = B#@@!!$@. Unless you want to tell, say, a white boy raised by an Asian family they should "act more white" (or an Asian one they should "act more Asian") so as to avoid appropriating the culture they were adopted by.

That seems to be the main leg people try to stand on, and nowhere in the books does Rand espouse the superiority of one culture over another, even after he is disillusioned by his former home not being as great a place as he thought (having a corrupt government). He doesn't discriminate against other races, either positively or negatively. He doesn't even spout off with any racist stereotype "Ancient Chinese secrets" or anything you could point to that makes the character racist.

Near as I can tell, being a white martial artist is taboo, and that's it?

You need to take a step back and look at the character. Iron Fist himself isnt' a racist character, so much as a racist idea- that the white guy, who literally shows up out of nowhere(no, not being facetious, this is part of his background) and is instantly better than EVERYONE/get the Iron Fist/learns the Iron Fist technique that noone else can, including people who have been doing this for lifetimes, is a rather bigoted part of this particular type of character's storyline. I will say that the character, Iron Fist, has largely transcended that. However, in anything involving his back story, this is going to be touched on and it's a sore point.

You aren't alone, by the way, I just had this arguement with the comic book store guys last night, one of whom feels the exact same way you do. But again, I am of the opinion that Iron Fist himself isn't a racist character, but he comes out of a rather racist time period with respect to that type of martial arts hero.
And if you think he doesn't spout ancient Chinese secrets, you haven't been reading the material much. He talks about his technique and philosophy constantly, at least in the stuff I've read. Which may or may not be "ancient Chinese secrets" , mileage is going to vary there.


I can agree that the original idea was conceived in a very racially insensitive way and time, but the character very quickly moved beyond and above that.

And yeah, he does talk about his philosophy a bit but it's so generic and just spiritual in a really vague way that you can't really point to anything as "racist". The closest it comes to that are his really hokey curses ("Heart of the dragon!" and "Gods of K'un L'un!") which the newer stuff seems to drop completely and fits in very well with Luke Cage saying "Sweet Christmas!" and calling everyone "turkeys".

I don't think the origin should be held against the character's entire lifespan.


ShinHakkaider wrote:

Yeah I dont know what Van Damme movies you've been watching but "over-choreographed" isnt something I'd attribute to Van Damme at all.

Also, Van Damme lacks both Adkins broad skill set AND athleticism.

But hey to each his own I guess...

None for a good twenty years, actually. :)


All I know is we'll see come St. Patrick's Day whether or not we'll get the quality we've expected from Marvel Netflix or not.


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Freehold DM wrote:
You need to take a step back and look at the character. Iron Fist himself isnt' a racist character, so much as a racist idea- that the white guy, who literally shows up out of nowhere(no, not being facetious, this is part of his background) and is instantly better than EVERYONE/get the Iron Fist/learns the Iron Fist technique that noone else can, including people who have been doing this for lifetimes, is a rather bigoted part of this particular type of character's storyline. I will say that the character, Iron Fist, has largely transcended that. However, in anything involving his back story, this is going to be touched on and it's a sore point.

And I believe that's crap. He was found as a child if my memory serves, so he's had just as much training as all the other kids his age. I've never seen it claimed that he had some magical white power that made him instantly better... he worked hard at it. That's actual the plot point of a few stories I've read where Steel Serpent thought he was owed that power based on his heritage where Danny actually EARNED it through hard work and discipline.

People act that just because he's white it's racist for him to be good at something another race 'claimed'. Iron Fist was created in 1974... Chuck Norris was the world Karate Champ from 1968-1974. Right when Danny was being created. Stevan Segal, Van Damme, Media is rife with extremely competent non-Asian martial artists.

Bruce Lee was one of the early Asians who agreed to train non-Asians so that they COULD have the opportunity to appreciate and participate in Asian Culture... He also cast Non-Asian martial artists in his movies to get them into the public's eye... and honestly, if Bruce Lee was okay with it... I don't find it racist to say that a white guy can be great at Kung Fu.

Especially when the 'culture' in question is actually a mystical non-existant city with only the barest similiarities to something real. Nor is he really 'Saving' them... He took their training and went back to America.


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To play Devil's Advocate, Danny was 10 when he was rescued, so he started training a bit later than Davos (Steel Serpent) and the other K'un L'un kids did.

He also does quite a bit of work reforming their government later on by taking down Yu-Ti as part of a rebellion (during The Immortal Iron Fist) and installing a more righteous man (Lei Kung) as the new leader. Due to some weird succession stuff I don't quite grok, Danny is actually the "rightful heir" to the title. He also (along with the other Living Weapons) averted a crisis that could have destroyed K'un L'un and the other cities like it.

So he is their savior...in as much as being a superhero he's been a LOT of peoples' savior.


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On Cultural Appropriation:
America is called the "Melting Pot". People came here from everywhere. They brought a bit of their homeland with them. And they adopted "American" culture into it. And since American culture is made up of all those bits and pieces, all Americans share in all those cultures and histories.

One doesn't have to be Chinese to appreciate and wish to emulate Chinese customs - such as martial arts. Just as one doesn't have to be European to love Arthurian or Greek mythos, or Mexican to enjoy a meal consisting of tortillas, rice and refried beans.

I thank my brothers and sisters whose ancestors came from different places from my own, and have added to the tapestry of OUR homeland.

While the above refers to the USA, it does hold true to some respects for other lands. All of Europe, and much of North Africa (for example) have shared a lot with each other dating back to the Romans. Just as one example.

And I for one, see nothing wrong with any child seeing a character in a comic book/tv show/movie and wanting to emulate their admirable traits - regardless of their respective origins.

Personally, I'll be watching next weekend. And I'll judge the show after I've seen it. I'm not going to condemn it for casting a blonde haired white guy to play a blonde haired white guy.


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Sundakan wrote:

To play Devil's Advocate, Danny was 10 when he was rescued, so he started training a bit later than Davos (Steel Serpent) and the other K'un L'un kids did.

He also does quite a bit of work reforming their government later on by taking down Yu-Ti as part of a rebellion (during The Immortal Iron Fist) and installing a more righteous man (Lei Kung) as the new leader. Due to some weird succession stuff I don't quite grok, Danny is actually the "rightful heir" to the title. He also (along with the other Living Weapons) averted a crisis that could have destroyed K'un L'un and the other cities like it.

So he is their savior...in as much as being a superhero he's been a LOT of peoples' savior.

well said.

I had a lot more to add, but the Internet hiccuped. Suffice it to say that the character is from just as bigoted a time as like cage and it's reflected in his back story. You don't have to like it, and I think he has largely transcended it, but it's true.


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I think that the issue people have with Cultural Appropriation has nothing to do with sharing elements of one’s culture. That argument is often used to obfuscate or ignore the issue that I’m going to bring up here. And that issue is two fold, first the idea that the culture of origin can do or have something native to their group and be derided and mocked for it by the majority but when someone from outside the culture (often from the majority) decides that it’s cool and they can profit from it, all of a sudden it becomes not only accepted but the original culture’s contribution is minimized or negated.

Second is the idea that America is a melting pot. It’s not. It is a capitalist country. Everything begins and ends there. Is it something useful that we can sell? Then yes we can take it and share it especially if we put an “American” see: White face on it. See Bruce Lee’s pitch to Warner Producers about Kung Fu and them taking his idea and casting David Carradine in the part instead of Bruce Lee. See the nature of Hip-Hop not being valued on it’s own merit until The Beastie Boys, then later Run DMC’s collaboration with Areosmith. OR Vanilla Ice or Eminem. Or Chuck Berry vs Elvis. Or something as innocuous as black girls being made fun of for having their hair in cornrows but white models starting to sport the look then it starts to be acceptable.

The idea of the American Melting Pot is a romanticism. The truth of it is this: Can this thing from another culture be sold to Americans (ie. White people) using Americans (ie. White people) to do the selling? YES?

PROFIT!


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I love how people just conveniently talk about Bruce Lee wanting to share the beauty of his culture with non-asians and if it was okay with Bruce then it's OKAY.

It's like when people automatically trot out Martin Luther King Jr's I HAVE A DREAM speech because they have NO OTHER CONTEXT of the man or what he was trying to do or his understanding of the enemy that he was fighting at the time.

Yes Bruce Lee wanted to share his culture with gweilos. But remember this was when he first came back here from Hong Kong. I say BACK because Bruce was born HERE. He was "American". He had an open mind and an open heart but America really only cared, again, about what they could sell, who they can use to sell it and who they can sell it to.

So when Warner Brother's burned him over that KUNG FU pitch, he picked up and went to make movies in Hong Kong where there was no issue of an asian man as a movie lead or heroic lead.

(as an aside, also take a look at "soul" music in the 50's and 60's and how it was marketed in America. It turns out that people (white America) were fine with the music made by black people as long as they didn't have to see their faces on the album covers. Either way, the mostly white owners of these labels still made their money so...)

It really wasn't until he became a huge success over there that Warner wanted to make movies with him. But don't get it twisted, he was angry and a little bit bitter over his treatment which was why he pulled up stakes and moved his family to Hong Kong to make movies.

Context is important.

Liberty's Edge

Hope it's better than what they say! and if it's not good, oh well... Defenders next!

PS: I also saw a Spider-Man TV show announcement on IMDB... anyone knows anything about this? I'm currently having a blast watching FX's Marvel Legion right now.

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