|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Spinning off an idea from another thread.
Currently the additional resources for Ultimate Equipment states:
Any character with the Poison Use class ability can purchase and use poisons. For now, they are the only classes that have a list of "always available poisons" (those noted below)—no other class may purchase poisons unless they appear on a Chronicle sheet or in another legal source. Alchemists, ninja, and poisoner rogues may only purchase the following poisons...
I believe at the time this language was added to additional resources, they were the only legal classes that had the Poison Use ability.
The language unnecessarily blocked out future classes and races from being able to access poisons, even if they have the poison use feature. By RAW there are several class archetypes that are excluded from purchasing poisons even though they have the poison use feature, as are slayers with the Poison Use talent, mediums with the Ambras Imre legendary spirit, and vishkanya.
At the very least, can we remove the list of classes from the additional resources entry. This way we don't have to keep revisiting it. I think this language would suffice.
"Any character with the Poison Use ability can purchase and use poisons. They have a list of "always available poisons": black adder venom, bloodroot, giant wasp poison, greenblood oil, large scorpion venom, malyass root paste, Medium spider venom, nitharit, shadow essence, small centipede poison, terinav root."
Further poisons (as long as they are in an allowed source could be purchased if the PC has enough fame or if they appear on a chronicle sheet).
|
|
Banning Drow Poison: Because heaven forbid someone spend gold (or craft with gold) on a dose of poison to potentially KO someone instead of thwapping them repeatedly upside the head with a rock-filled sock. Also something about Drow.
I do get the setting reason why it is banned, but would it still be banned if it wasn't called Drow Poison?
|
Banning Drow Poison: Because heaven forbid someone spend gold (or craft with gold) on a dose of poison to potentially KO someone instead of thwapping them repeatedly upside the head with a rock-filled sock. Also something about Drow.
I do get the setting reason why it is banned, but would it still be banned if it wasn't called Drow Poison?
Well, it kind of is a purchasable one-hit encounter ender if the enemy fails their save.
|
I would be for expanding the list of who can purchase poisons to include at least the classes that get the ability to use poison without poisoning themselves. Keep in mind with Investigators that Poison Lore is named differently than Poison Use, so any rule meant to allow Investigators to purchase poison should explicitly call that out, As a class that can craft like an Alchemist and that has class abilities to use poison, the Investigator would make sense to add to the list.
Allowing Viskanya would make sense, if the powers that be want to open it up for a whole race instead of limited classes. That would allow a Deadly Courtesan, for example, to purchase additional poisons besides their own blood.
|
|
Well, it kind of is a purchasable one-hit encounter ender if the enemy fails their save.Banning Drow Poison: Because heaven forbid someone spend gold (or craft with gold) on a dose of poison to potentially KO someone instead of thwapping them repeatedly upside the head with a rock-filled sock. Also something about Drow.
I do get the setting reason why it is banned, but would it still be banned if it wasn't called Drow Poison?
To be fair, so are scrolls of hold person or sleep. DCs aren't great, but neither are the DCs of most purchasable poisons.
|
To be fair, so are scrolls of hold person or sleep. DCs aren't great, but neither are the DCs of most purchasable poisons.Well, it kind of is a purchasable one-hit encounter ender if the enemy fails their save.Banning Drow Poison: Because heaven forbid someone spend gold (or craft with gold) on a dose of poison to potentially KO someone instead of thwapping them repeatedly upside the head with a rock-filled sock. Also something about Drow.
I do get the setting reason why it is banned, but would it still be banned if it wasn't called Drow Poison?
Don't forget Color Spray, Dazing metamagic, the Slumber hex, and so, so, many things that are denial of action stuff.
Even something that nauseates can be pretty much an encounter-ender. Entangle, Web, etc.
|
|
What about allowing characters which are unable to accidentally poison themselves with a particular poison, to be able to purchase it?
So any character with poison use, poison immunity, or immunity to a specific poison (like with the Venom Drenched trait), would be able to purchase poisons which they could not harm themselves with (so if only immune to certain poisons, you'd only be able to purchase those certain poisons).
|
|
I would not allow Fame to suffice for purchasing poison (though that sounds like a fine boon!), else drow sleep poison will become prolific. I don't think PFS leadership is interested in that.
Having a PP cost for poison purchases seems entirely reasonable. 6 PP for a "poisoner's guild" membership, as a one-time fee to unlock common poisons for any character. (6 PP would prevent level one characters from using poison entirely.)
Maybe a 2 PP discount if you already have "temple membership" and worship a god of poison (like Norgorber).
|
|
To be fair, so are scrolls of hold person or sleep. DCs aren't great, but neither are the DCs of most purchasable poisons.Well, it kind of is a purchasable one-hit encounter ender if the enemy fails their save.Banning Drow Poison: Because heaven forbid someone spend gold (or craft with gold) on a dose of poison to potentially KO someone instead of thwapping them repeatedly upside the head with a rock-filled sock. Also something about Drow.
I do get the setting reason why it is banned, but would it still be banned if it wasn't called Drow Poison?
Don't forget Color Spray, Dazing metamagic, the Slumber hex, and so, so, many things that are denial of action stuff.
Even something that nauseates can be pretty much an encounter-ender. Entangle, Web, etc.
But literally anyone and anything can use poison (if they roll a 1 when applying it, not very well, admittedly). You can put it on a deer's horns or a lizard's claws. The ability to use magic requires either a caster level or UMD. Poison requires, well, not rolling a 1 and then being able to hit something (and a target that is susceptible to poison). That's a somewhat broader scope.
Also, I wouldn't count daze/stun as being quite as bad as unconsciousness and sleep, since you can't CdG a dazed or stunned enemy.
But yeah, it's probably the "drow are evil and also secret" thing.
|
|
What exactly do you you roll when applying it?
d20. Odds to poison yourself are pretty low, in theory...
When rolling to attack, 1s also poison yourself.
The big loss with poisoning yourself is not only are you poisoned, but the poison is wasted.
Plus, the poison's only good for 1 hitting attack, unlike natural attack based poisons. So even with the neat idea of stacking poison DCs, this means applying new poison each time (which dramatically increases the gold cost).
On a side note, the Poison Egg spell is PFS legal and is available to just about every class as a level 1 spell (You do have to worship Norgorber, but you were going to do that anyway <wink> ). Not only is it a dose of Small Centipede Poison for no gold cost, but you don't risk poisoning yourself when applying it to a weapon. spell link
The poison spell, also no cost other than a spell. Doesn't even require materials.
|
|
Well, it kind of is a purchasable one-hit encounter ender if the enemy fails their save.Banning Drow Poison: Because heaven forbid someone spend gold (or craft with gold) on a dose of poison to potentially KO someone instead of thwapping them repeatedly upside the head with a rock-filled sock. Also something about Drow.
I do get the setting reason why it is banned, but would it still be banned if it wasn't called Drow Poison?
Purchasable one-hit encounter ender, you say? So the Large Tetsubo in the hands of my Power Attacking/Vital Striking Titan Fighter/Barbarian counts then? 10d8 + massive damage crits. The Golden Legion's Stayed Blade feat means I don't necessarily have to kill them either. Crits about as often as poisons work.
Drow have appeared in our campaign about 3 times. This is a major reason why Drow Poison is not available.
|
|
I think the poison rules, as are, are fine.I don't. I don't see why only the classes and archetypes that existed and had poison use at the time ultimate equipment was added to the additional resources should have an always available list of poisons, but those created after do not.
Opening poison up to classes that also can use poison that didn't exist before isn't really changing the rules.
|
|
Well, it kind of is a purchasable one-hit encounter ender if the enemy fails their save.Banning Drow Poison: Because heaven forbid someone spend gold (or craft with gold) on a dose of poison to potentially KO someone instead of thwapping them repeatedly upside the head with a rock-filled sock. Also something about Drow.
I do get the setting reason why it is banned, but would it still be banned if it wasn't called Drow Poison?
Purchasable one-hit encounter ender, you say? So the Large Tetsubo in the hands of my Power Attacking/Vital Striking Titan Fighter/Barbarian counts then? 10d8 + massive damage crits. The Golden Legion's Stayed Blade feat means I don't necessarily have to kill them either. Crits about as often as poisons work.
Drow have appeared in our campaign about 3 times. This is a major reason why Drow Poison is not available.
It's not an encounter ender in any given hand. If you give that tetsubo to a Str 5 witch or an animal companion, it's not going to end the encounter and does not even possess the potential to do so - you need the additional investment of a character build that can utilize it. Drow poison is more global in terms of who can utilize it - it always has that potential.
And trust me, I know there are builds out there that end any given encounter in one action. I play with a lot of them.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Opening poison up to classes that also can use poison that didn't exist before isn't really changing the rules.I think the poison rules, as are, are fine.I don't. I don't see why only the classes and archetypes that existed and had poison use at the time ultimate equipment was added to the additional resources should have an always available list of poisons, but those created after do not.
That's a matter of semantics. What I meant here is that by RAW, certain PCs with Poison Use don't have always available poisons. At a minimum I'd like to see that changed so that the rule states any PC with Poison Use (or Poison Lore) can purchase those poisons.
|
|
Wow, here's one I found:
Filthy Weapons (Combat)
You spread contagion with your weapons by covering their business ends in virulent muck and sewage.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (dungeoneering) 1 rank, Knowledge (nature) 1 rank.
Benefit: You can take a standard action to cover a weapon in decomposing waste, slimy filth, or other virulent agent. The next attack with that weapon that succeeds against a foe exposes the target to filth fever. If the attack is a critical hit, the filth fever has an onset time of 1 round, and a save DC equal to 10 + 1/2 your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier.
So while poisons remain limited, I can get a disease to apply to my weapons with a single feat easily attainable at level 1 and it doesn't even require costly materials (muck, waste, or virulent agents...).
Honestly, seems like the poison ban is rather arbitrary, as it seems more about limiting poison itself than about limiting poison-like abilities.
|
|
Outside of some other ability, diseases have an incubation time of days if not weeks. They're useless in combat without something else.
Well, the linked feat gives Filth Fever an onset time of 1 round on a critical hit. Relying on the first attack of every combat to be critical is certainly iffy logic, but it doesn't have high prerequisites, nor any material requirements. Themematically, would be awesome with a blight druid.
But yes, I do agree that diseases by themselves are mostly not as good as poisons. There are a few feat/spell exceptions, but they are mostly useless in PFS games.
