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A few days ago my players confronted Mokmurian. The summoner used a wand of silence on his eidolon and then sent his eidolon to attack Mokmurian, rendering him totally ineffective in the battle. Mokmurian did his best to avoid the silence, flew up and cast dispel magic, but then on the next turn they just cast silence again.
I didn't mind so much about the fight going in favor of the players so easily, as I believe that players should be awarded for good planning and thinking, even if what they are using is ridiculously overpowered. However, they are going to tackle Runeforge in a not very long time, and I'm afraid that most of the "boss" fights in there will be very boring and anti climatic, so I'm trying to look for solutions to this problem. I need a few of those, since I can't have all the wizards in there use the same solution. And anyway, the biggest problem is that they can cast Silence every round with 70% chance of success.
So, here's what I got:
1 - Azaven can use his contingency to guard him from magical silence. Of course, this works only once, so he'll have to be very careful about what he does once the silence is dispelled. He also has gaseous form which does not have verbal components and can allow him to escape.
2- For Ordikon I can immigrate a spell from 3.5ed called Vocalize, that allows a caster to cast without verbal components for 5 rounds.
3- Delvahine can use her superior mobility (Acrobatics +36, fly 50 ft.) to try and stay out of the silence radius.
4- Jordimandus - Maybe switch one of his feats with still spell?
5 - Highlady Athroxis - maybe have some variant forbiddance spell on area K6 that counters all magical silence?
What do you think? Any ideas would be most welcome.
none wiling targets can save against the silence I believe
The eidolon is not an unwilling target, and with his great mobility most spellcasters don't have a chance of staying away from him.
Spell resistance is Yes. So in my view, a creature with spell resistance gets that check if they move into a stationary silence effect or if a mobile one is moved onto them.
This stratagem should also make either the eidolon or the summoner first against the wall when the revolution comes. If the summoner is unconscious or dead, the eidolon is banished along with its silence. "Concentrate fire on that SuperStar Destroyer!" This should apply to both the various BBEG's and any minions (summoned or otherwise.) Basically this strategy is: we need to kill the wizard before the wizard and his allies kill the summoner.
Also note: spell-like abilities, which some of the BBEG's in Runeforge possess, do not have verbal components and are unaffected by silence.
SR will not work according to RAW because the BBEG is not the subject, but that would make a good house rule.
Also, getting rid of the summoner will not work because he has an ability that allows the eidolon to remain 9 rounds after that. Of course, the BBEG would not know that...
Area Spells: Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell's area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself.
Actually SR does affect it - the check is made when the spell first interacts with the enemy that has SR - the check is made once and if the spell is resisted it no longer affects the creature even if it moves in and out of the spell area. If the resistance check works then the creature is likewise affected - they only get one resistance check per spell so you can't cheese it by moving in and out of the range.
Unless the wand is made at a higher caster level - that CL 3 wand is going to have a heck of a time getting over the SR of anything.
Also note that cast time on silence is a full round - even on a wand - that means it takes a full round action to cast - and doesn't actually go off until the start of the creatures next turn. The caster can't use a move action and the standard is 'trigger wand' - they can use swift and a 5 foot step.
The wand (CL3) has a duration of all of 3 rounds, unless made at a higher caster level.
Your monsters can try to sunder/disarm the wand when it's being activated. Other options would be to steal the wand - it's a bit up in the air if a 1 round wand is interrupted though - perhaps a steal would let the new owner choose the target?
Most of your points are good, Ckorik, but regarding the area spell - you could argue that silence is not an area spell, but a targeted spell. Though I guess I can rule that in this case SR still applies.
Silence is an Area spell. From Spell Description:
"Area 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space." If it was a Targeted spell, the next entry after Range would be Target.
The confusing thing about the spell write-up (or what I am assuming is the confusing thing) is that it goes into detail about how spell resistance affects applying the mobile emanation to a creature (or object.) This is done to elaborate on how a creature or object might resist being the point of origin but doesn't eliminate the "area" characteristic of the spell effect itself.
Okay, thanks guys.
I think that plus casting time of 1 round solves this problem completely as long as the spellcaster can cast spell resistance.
Silly me, Spell Resistance is a cleric spell...
You don't think wizards from the era of Thassilon wouldn't have their own version? In fact, there is Spell Turning, and I believe there's another that provides Wizards with an immunity to a specific spell. They could have chosen that one.
From the PRD on spell resistance..
Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that's already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell.
So I'd rule that they get a check - I do admit there is some grey area and that many GM's will only allow a check if an attack role or save is called for explicitly - I feel that a creature will spell resistance (based on that line above) gets the check the first time they enter a spell area if the spell allows for it.
Oddly silence is an illusion - which means that the reality is sound continues normally in the area, you are just tricked into not hearing it. You could create a nifty spell from ancient Thassilon called 'true hearing' - acts like true seeing but pierces all attempts to change sound. Make it Wiz 6 or even 5 considering it'd be a bit less powerful than true seeing.
Also note that lesser and higher versions of globe of invulnerability work against silence entering the globe, which on reflection I like for lower level mooks - I'd give the bosses more exotic stuff (especially the ones that note they spy on the players and know there tactics ahead of time, like rods of silent spell). The reason I like the globes is that the globes don't move with the creature - so your players tactics are still valid - they essentially lock a creature into not moving to be protected, but it doesn't shut down everything that a creature can do.
As to the bosses - like I said the ones that spy on the players should have something prepped - the ones that don't (or are surprised) shouldn't. I would make each case special so the players don't say 'oh that trick again'.
Etc.
Make it different and in each case if the 'trick' doesn't work make it logical and up the rewards a bit for forcing the enemy to adapt - make sure that it uses up spell slots or other tricks they had planned - etc.
That way your payers are rewarded for thinking but they don't ROFLSTOMP the bad guys with a 2nd level spell.
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As a way to familiarize myself with the various lead casters in each hall (since my players will be there shortly) and because it seemed an interesting intellectual exercise, I tried to develop some responses for the leaders based on what's written in the AP only.
In order as they appear in the AP...
Azaven
First, his as-written tactics are, to be blunt, stupid. He has clear forewarning of the incursion of the pc's and yet stays in a small room with limited options for retreat or mobility. All the while, his enemies destroy his minions. It's one thing for him to let them trash the first set of Mummies in F1, another to let Xyoddin fall and yet another to stand by while the second set of mummies is cut down. Engaging the invaders when he has support troops and options to retreat would be much smarter.
Second, tongues does not belong in his power-up suite, at least not as early as listed. Don't see any reason for him not to assume anyone who has reached Runeforge cannot speak Thassilonian.
Third, his contingency is feeble. It should be when reduced to 30hp or less, he gets dimension door.
However, all that being said, if somehow your pc's get to him alone in F10 and/or you want to run him exactly as written, a silence-laden melee combatant would be pretty effective. He's arguably the most vulnerable of the BBEG's. I would make sure no matter what that he has the summoned devourer at his disposal and has mirror image up. The devourer will focus on killing the Summoner and Azaven still has his paralyzing touch (with a Fort DC of 21 it's not too shabby.) Further, I might permit him to smash the walls with his staff to draw out wraiths - this is definitely a stretch but it seems in keeping with the spirit of the Ravenous Crypts.
Ordikon
His tactics at least suggest he goes and investigates when he hears the golems fighting. So he could engage the pc's while they also have to deal with the golems. That should make it harder for the Silent Eidolon tactic to work. He also is in a more flexible position in G6 - depending on where the pc's come from he could retreat to the east or west to get out of a silence affect or to G8 and let the pc's deal with Zuvuzeg to get to him. He could also recruit Zuvuzeg - "Kill the intruders and I'll set you free!" Also, he can use Beast Shape III as a spell-like ability (that ignores silence.) He could become a dire tiger or mastodon. I don't see why he shouldn't be a mithril mastodon. Trample the Summoner!!!
Delvahine
She has spell resistance, she can teleport at will (spell-like ability) - between that, the size the Iron Halls and the number of minions available to her (her daughters, stone giants and shining children) it should be very hard to pin her down in a silence effect. She can also dominate person and summon a babau as a spell-like ability. If the pc's try the Silent Eidolon tactic, I suspect she would simply giggle at the uselessness of it.
False Vraxeris
These casters are also vulnerable to a silence-based strategy but there are 6 of them. Their lair is very large so they should start out too far apart to fall into one silence area of effect (also they should start invisible.) And that's not simply a silence-defeating tactic, no sense being close enough for a fireball either. If the Silent Eidolon is giving them trouble, they can use dispel magic to thwart it. Or spam Feebleminds on the Summoner.
Jordimandus
Through his quasit, he, too, should not be caught unawares and should have plenty of summoned allies in place when the pc's get there. He is also in a space where fly could give him the ability to evade the eidolon. Lastly, his dimensional step is a spell-like ability and should serve to get him out of range if the eidolon succeeds in closing.
HighLady Athroxis
She has a Glabrezu ally that can spam dispels on silence effects. She also strikes me as the BBEG you'd least like to be within melee range of. Sure you don't have to be that close to her with the Silent Eidolon but the further you are away, the easier it is for her to get out of the silence and cast as she wills. Whether a Projected Image inside of a silence effect can be the origin point of a spell with verbal components is left as an exercise for the interested reader. (Cue rules discussion.)
Silence is an Area spell. From Spell Description:
"Area 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space." If it was a Targeted spell, the next entry after Range would be Target.The confusing thing about the spell write-up (or what I am assuming is the confusing thing) is that it goes into detail about how spell resistance affects applying the mobile emanation to a creature (or object.) This is done to elaborate on how a creature or object might resist being the point of origin but doesn't eliminate the "area" characteristic of the spell effect itself.
I always ran it like darkness, they only get a save if it is cast on them, or do you guys rule that something with SR can ignore magical darkness if the caster fails his check.
In Darkness, SR is No, so it's hardly the same thing.
From my limited research - silence is special in this case - all 'lingering' area spells I could find (like say cloudkill for example) didn't allow spell resistance.
Illusions in particular typically don't.
Silence is both yet allows for it - perhaps because it can be cast directly on the target? Perhaps because it's so low level and a bit overpowered?
Dunno. It does seem to be a special case though. Spell like abilities should be affected. Supernatural abilities wouldn't be. There are other ways to mitigate if you feel the spell resistance tack doesn't work.
Honestly when my players do this kind of thing (use a tactic like this over and over) the first enemy that scries/spys on them will use it against them in my games. I am always upfront about it - do something cool (like figure out how to carpet bomb using some quirk of shrink item and fly) and that's an awesome game moment - do it every encounter or boss and it will be used against you.
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As a way to familiarize myself with the various lead casters in each hall (since my players will be there shortly) and because it seemed an interesting intellectual exercise, I tried to develop some responses for the leaders based on what's written in the AP only.
** spoiler omitted **...
These are great! For some other possible ideas, I've planned some different tactics a couple bosses that should help negate the silence issue, although it wasn't my primary intention...
Azaven (added 1 wizard level)
Will be alerted and waiting under Greater invisibilty, to cast Greater Possesion on a beatstick type when they enter the room.
False Vraxeris
There will be one per PC present (we generally have 5-7 players on any given night), each will cast Create Mindscape from invisble, sending each character into their own little world. This will cause the eidolon to be dismissed (in my case, may not be the same in yours due to the ability mentioned, though greater invisibility could probably be used here too) and would reduce the silence to only whatever clone is in the mindspace with the wand weilder.
HighLady Athroxis
Intent is to call out a specific character for one on one combat, offering a reward if they can succeed. May or may not succeed, depending on how the group is feeling that night.
From my limited research - silence is special in this case - all 'lingering' area spells I could find (like say cloudkill for example) didn't allow spell resistance.
Illusions in particular typically don't.
Silence is both yet allows for it - perhaps because it can be cast directly on the target? Perhaps because it's so low level and a bit overpowered?
Dunno. It does seem to be a special case though. Spell like abilities should be affected. Supernatural abilities wouldn't be. There are other ways to mitigate if you feel the spell resistance tack doesn't work.
Honestly when my players do this kind of thing (use a tactic like this over and over) the first enemy that scries/spys on them will use it against them in my games. I am always upfront about it - do something cool (like figure out how to carpet bomb using some quirk of shrink item and fly) and that's an awesome game moment - do it every encounter or boss and it will be used against you.
There are area spells with SR = yes. Examples would include Blade Barrier, Wall of Fire and Mind Fog.
Not to go all RAW but from Core Rulebook p. 221: "A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally." Seems to me silence would be irrelevant.
The Spell Resistance entry for Silence is: "yes; see text or no (object)." I read that to mean that conventional spell resistance applies "before the ;" and that the text provides added clarification. If the text was meant to be the exclusive description of how spell resistance applies, the entry would be only "see text" or perhaps: "no, see text."
The spell is unusual as a mobile area of effect that can be harmful to the recipient, ergo the spell provides rules on how it can be targeted.
Silence is a triply effective spell in that it can be used for stealth, spell disruption/prevention and protection from sonic attacks. I think allowing spell resistance is a way to balance that utility.
By the way, I don't have any strong objection to the tactics of the OP's pc's. The summoner uses an action (and item charge) and the eidelon closes into combat range, risking damage as a result. The Summoner doesn't know what kind of defenses his enemy might have or how dangerous it is. It will work best if the enemy's mobility is restricted and the eidelon can keep readily keep the caster within the silence. Otherwise the whole effort could be wasted/useless.
Keep in mind using this tactic can create risk or limitations for the pc's as well. There will be no casting of curative magic or breath of life spells within 20 feet of the eidelon. So if there are front line fighters who are looking for healing support, they won't get it. All the party's casters have to stay more than 20 feet away from the eidelon, making it easier for them to be targeted and engaged by enemies. No one will be using spell trigger or command word activated magic items within 20 feet of it either. I assume there isn't a bard in the party...
Not to go all RAW but from Core Rulebook p. 221: "A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally." Seems to me silence would be irrelevant.
Little things like that catch me up - I figured as SLA's were like the spell in question - didn't catch that - thank you :)
As to other area spells I did admit I wasn't really looking hard - but they are all good examples of the same thing - in that if a spell allows the SR and a creature interacts with it - I rule that the SR applies at that point.
I can totally imagine that some would rule differently - and that's fine - but I agree with your balance observation. In this particular case some of these opponents will have very good intel on the party and tactics - (or should have - it's possible the party took pains to keep that from happening) - given the intelligence of the opponents I don't think it's out of place for the ones that are for-warned to have a plan in place to deal with the trick either.