Hey, in the right situation, Sohei can still be a useful tool. Which I'm sympathetic to, for some reason...
I feel it's hard, if not impossible, to have a archetyped monk weigh in against an unchained monk fairly. Nothing can make up for or compare to what Flying kick can add to damage, because even at just 10 feet, we've all wanted to, at some point, move 10 feet and flurry/full-round.
Edit: Hell the same argument can be made for the Umonk vs a lot of classes and builds.
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So you would allow a ring of continuous true strike for 8000 gp? Cause that's the specific price/result.No more than anything to do with magic items is a house rule.Yes. Yes it is. Because it's a subjective GM ruling rather than having specific prices/results.
It's a specific price/result - but it's not one in the rules. Show me a book that it's in and I'll allow it.
The magic item creation rules for new items are really just giving you ballpark ideas for house-rules. Just like the race creator can make some really broken races - but fortunately they're just house-rules and I don't allow them.
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Honestly why don't we just compare builds with the same metrics?
What metrics do you want to use?
And how do you plan on accounting for things like Flying Kick or using a reach weapon, which affect build damage and versatility in ways that can't be easily predicted and calculated?
Sure we can talk about DPR (under specific assumptions), AC, or saves, but sooner or later you run into apples/oranges.
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I feel it's hard, if not impossible, to have a archetyped monk weigh in against an unchained monk fairly. Nothing can make up for or compare to what Flying kick can add to damage, because even at just 10 feet, we've all wanted to, at some point, move 10 feet and flurry/full-round.
Edit: Hell the same argument can be made for the Umonk vs a lot of classes and builds.
Now, I'm going to preface this by saying that I think flying kick is a great ability. In fact, it, more than the full BAB, d10 hit die or improved flurry should be the reason to play this class, but I can think of a number of ways that an archetyped monk could mitigate the advantages of flying kick.
First off is the zen archer, they could care less about moving 10 feet to make a melee attack, they'll be full attacking every round anyway. After that you have the fact that you can still use range weapons on a flurry of blows, so you knock down your opponent, then use your rope dart, or shurikens to finish your flurry of blows. Not ideal, but still allows you to get all your attacks in. Then you have Sohei taking mounted skirmisher, at possibly level 1, to flurry atop a moving animal, because they have a lot of class features that make using a mount useful that most people just ignore because of the amount of damage they can do. Then you have just every reach weapon, which combined with a 5 foot step will allow you to attack 15 feet away, same as flying kick at level 5. Then you have the outslug style feats, which allows you to take two 5 foot steps, along with removing the penalty for lunging, so you can now attack an opponent 15 feet away, 20 while lunging, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity like flying kicks do.So Umonk does not have the monopoly on being a mobile, skirmisher type character. It's easier to build it as such, but regular monk can do much of the same with a little bit of investment.
EDIT: Forgot to mention Ascetic Style with a scorpion whip, which may not do quite as much damage, but is absolutely frightening for a trip build.
@Deighton
Zen Archer is Zen Archer. It's a ridiculous archetype. I mean, it's archery, dude. Of course it wins. Though the higher the levels, the less the Zen Archer's range matter, and the damage difference will be huge. Remember, archery is only so strong since it can always full rounds, which an Unchained Monk does more than most martials anyways. Again, there is no way to really compare their DPR.
As for mounted skirmisher, there comes the issue of having to be on your mount at all times, and having a mount that isn't an animal companion, so it's really, really easy to have die. I feel it's ignored due to unreliability. Though if you invest the feats for an animal companion mount, that is a dirty build, but that's feats spent to catch up and remain consistent.
As for the reach, outslug, lunge build, yeah, that works, but it is A) Locking you into extremely certain feats and one specific style, B) Will do less damage than an unchained Monk that just picks up dragon style or Jabbing style and flying kicks, and C) Requires INT 13 and combat expertise, lowering more important stats for reach in the future. This isn't even taking into account and Unchained monk can also select all the aforementioned options and choose a different style Strike at 5, or keep flying kick for the options..
Perhaps I worded what I said wrong, but still think flying kick cannot be properly emulated without bending over backwards to do so.
I compare flying kick and reach the way it's compared - subjectively. But let's have at least two builds to compare.
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I feel it's hard, if not impossible, to have a archetyped monk weigh in against an unchained monk fairly. Nothing can make up for or compare to what Flying kick can add to damage, because even at just 10 feet, we've all wanted to, at some point, move 10 feet and flurry/full-round.
Edit: Hell the same argument can be made for the Umonk vs a lot of classes and builds.
Now, I'm going to preface this by saying that I think flying kick is a great ability. In fact, it, more than the full BAB, d10 hit die or improved flurry should be the reason to play this class, but I can think of a number of ways that an archetyped monk could mitigate the advantages of flying kick.
First off is the zen archer, they could care less about moving 10 feet to make a melee attack, they'll be full attacking every round anyway. After that you have the fact that you can still use range weapons on a flurry of blows, so you knock down your opponent, then use your rope dart, or shurikens to finish your flurry of blows. Not ideal, but still allows you to get all your attacks in. Then you have Sohei taking mounted skirmisher, at possibly level 1, to flurry atop a moving animal, because they have a lot of class features that make using a mount useful that most people just ignore because of the amount of damage they can do. Then you have just every reach weapon, which combined with a 5 foot step will allow you to attack 15 feet away, same as flying kick at level 5. Then you have the outslug style feats, which allows you to take two 5 foot steps, along with removing the penalty for lunging, so you can now attack an opponent 15 feet away, 20 while lunging, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity like flying kicks do.
So Umonk does not have the monopoly on being a mobile, skirmisher type character. It's easier to build it as such, but regular monk can do much of the same with a little bit of investment.EDIT: Forgot to mention Ascetic Style with a scorpion whip, which may not do quite as much...
Ascetic style can't be taken with a scorpion whip. Ascetic style cares about the monk fighter weapon group, not the monk weapon property. While crusaders flurry can add the monk property to the weapon, nothing can add a weapon to a group.
crusaders flirt
"Girl, I don't just use this scorpion whip to flog the infidels yannow? ;)"
I'm high and sleepy so I'm sure I gave you more than enough time to correct. XD
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As for mounted skirmisher, there comes the issue of having to be on your mount at all times, and having a mount that isn't an animal companion, so it's really, really easy to have die. I feel it's ignored due to unreliability. Though if you invest the feats for an animal companion mount, that is a dirty build, but that's feats spent to catch up and remain consistent.
So - what a Sohei really needs to have is be a halfling Dex build and ride a dwarf Umonk into battle!
(I'm only half kidding... it would be kinda amazing. They'd get the Umonk's mobility with the Sohei's initiative...)
I feel it's hard, if not impossible, to have a archetyped monk weigh in against an unchained monk fairly. Nothing can make up for or compare to what Flying kick can add to damage, because even at just 10 feet, we've all wanted to, at some point, move 10 feet and flurry/full-round.
Edit: Hell the same argument can be made for the Umonk vs a lot of classes and builds.
The new Outslug Style grants a '10-foot step' plus free lunge, which is something.
No more than anything to do with magic items is a house rule.Yes. Yes it is. Because it's a subjective GM ruling rather than having specific prices/results.
Per RAW, all magic item creation is subject to GM ruling.
The new Outslug Style grants a '10-foot step' plus free lunge, which is something.I feel it's hard, if not impossible, to have a archetyped monk weigh in against an unchained monk fairly. Nothing can make up for or compare to what Flying kick can add to damage, because even at just 10 feet, we've all wanted to, at some point, move 10 feet and flurry/full-round.
Edit: Hell the same argument can be made for the Umonk vs a lot of classes and builds.
Yep. Soheis have three great options when it comes to moving and attacking.
Outslug, which is great for unarmed builds, or anyone using a cestus. So good for monk finesse builds overall.
Pummeling style, which is great for unarmed builds
Reach +lunge, cause who cares about the -2 when the enemy has to spend a move and eat an AoO just to reach you (which means they likely have to use just a standard action attack, which was likely going to hit anyway). Outslug shares the same general attack area, since 10' step~10' base reach. Great strength build for soheis, since 2 handing with martial weapons.
So there is a question of how useful flying kick is. It mostly shows promise when you need to go a long distance, or maybe work some strange angle. I won't call it not useful, but I question how significant it can be at times, since there is some bunching as enemies close in to attack.
Ah yes, forgot those styles. So yes, sohei are filled with options.
Neither of which can have the Brawling enchantment, which is the only draw for using armor.Light armor means the Sohei will be wearing a mithral breastplate or Celestial Armor by late game.Yeah, no Flying Kick is probably the single biggest point against Sohei, though they can get easy Mounted Skirmisher.
Light armor can be exploited to stack dexterity at the expense of wisdom, but in the long run Sohei is probably better-off just replicating standard unarmored Monk. They lose out on some ki powers, but they do have enough Qinggong options to take at least Barkskin and one other benefit.
Sohei can also make interesting switch-hitters with bow/sword flurry.
Just to confirm, this is because the Sohei still gets the Wisdom modifier to AC and the scaling AC bonus so long as it doesn't wear armor. So the armor bonus from wearing armor would need to be better than Wisdom + scaling bonus, which is nearly impossible with light armor once we account for the dex cap limit on armor.
So, the only reason to use it is if you're going to focus on unarmed strikes and want the bonuses from brawling armor.
Just to confirm, this is because the Sohei still gets the Wisdom modifier to AC and the scaling AC bonus so long as it doesn't wear armor. So the armor bonus from wearing armor would need to be better than Wisdom + scaling bonus, which is nearly impossible with light armor once we account for the dex cap limit on armor.
So, the only reason to use it is if you're going to focus on unarmed strikes and want the bonuses from brawling armor.
Yep. Otherwise, you would at least want to grab a mithral breastplate via something like armor expert, and then later switching to celestial.
Not necessarily better in terms of AC, but it involves less system mastery (because for many...dealing with that wizard-like crap when you are playing a martial is a pain). Plus, you could theoretically go with minimal wisdom and invest in something like strength instead.
Compare a weapon using sohei (ie- the one that doesn't want brawling armor) with an unarmed monk. The unarmed monk needs an AoMF. As such he has to get his natural armor elsewhere. Thus, he likely goes with that one barkskin qinggong power.
A sohei with just armor and amulet of natural armor wouldn't bother spending ki for that stuff. So he has more ki to play with (or could go with less ki, and end up with same usable ki).
This is an oversimplification, of course...but the idea is that that you do not have to go with 'monk-y stats' (ie- dex and wis turtle) as a sohei.
Really, the simplification is the main attraction here. Just going with normal armor and weapons, and just getting good full attacks and saves... that is what many seek with soheis.
There are some cases where ignoring wisdom with a Sohei can be useful. I had a "Mongol" concept build I was fiddling with a while ago that went switch-hitter Sohei/Bloodrager using Sohei to get bow-flurry along with the usual 9-ring flurry; starting stats ran high STR and DEX and ignored WIS. Besides ending up with a rather small Ki Pool (mostly just enough for Barkskin), everything else about those ability scores works perfectly - right down to the mithral mountain-pattern armor backed by good DEX.