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Looking at monk builds recently and wanting to make sure I've got an accurate idea of the advantages and disadvantages of the two.
The Unchained monk is definitely more mobile between fast movement, flying kick, abundant step, ki whirlwind, etc. It also has a wider range of minor abilities from stunning fist to style strikes to ki powers - if they pick the same powers as the sohei as much as possible (which they don't have to do) they end up with 3 extra, plus a few automatic powers the sohei doesn't have like purity of body. It has a bigger HD, thus probably more HP.
The Sohei however functions better with a modest Wis between being able to wear light armour instead of using the monk AC bonus, having a good base Will save, and not having all those ki powers. The initiative bonus is very nice, and Weapon Training gives you access to Advanced Weapon Training and Weapon Mastery feats from WMH, in addition to letting you flurry with unusual weapons and generally improving your attack routine. In fact, the Sohei can actually get a better attack routine than the Unchained monk if it invests in Gloves of Dueling, and possibly Brawling armour, adding +5 or +7 to attack and damage at level 20:
Unchained +20 or +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5
Sohei Brawling +22 or +25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10
Sohei No Brawl. +20 or +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8
Even without Brawling, only the 3rd attack has a higher bonus for the Unchained monk, and the Sohei gets one more attack. Note that despite the truncated progression of UAS damage, Weapon Training + Brawling can give the Sohei about equal unarmed damage to the Unchained monk. Average damage on 2d10 is 11, compared to average damage on d6+7 = 10.5.
So the Unchained Monk is a good choice if you want mobility and thematic powers. The Sohei is a good choice if you want a stronger flurry routine, an unusual flurry weapon, weapon training goodies, or if your Wis is going to be closer to 10 than 18.
Does that sound about right? Do you have any other reasons to prefer one or the other? Is there anything from WMH that you think works particularly well for the Sohei?
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It should also be noted with a weapon-flurry that the Umonk gets 1.5x STR damage.
The Sohei's flurry only pulls ahead once they grab Gloves of Dueling (level 8-9 is likely the earliest that they could reasonably afford them), so they spend a long time with an inferior flurry.
But I do agree - at high levels the Sohei has a somewhat more potent flurry.
I will also point out - even with a base Wis of just 14, a Sohei will always have a better AC if they're unarmored. Only 1-2 points at lower levels, eventually becoming 6-10 points better.
I'd also like to add; the Sohei, in my opinion handles mounts better than any other class; they gain the tools to create a powerful mount without requiring the entire build to be dedicated to fighting mounted.
I also hate the Unchained Monk; being a 3/4 BAB class encoraged players to focus on full attacking with Flurry. Bringing the class up to full BAB was a raw power-up with complete disreguard for flavor. Add in Flying Kick and the Full BAB conversion becomes even more pointless.
Honetly I feel the only "good" decision was to implement Ki Powers as a system for buying appropriate abilitiess, rather than having abilities compleatly unrelated to character concept.
If we're talking about high levels, an unchained monk can get all the Dimensional feats, and have D. Dervish by 13. Hell, you can give the UnMonk Outflank since I think that works with savant, more than making up for the accuracy difference. Between that and flying kick, the number of times an Unchained monk gets full round attacks compared to Sohei is almost an immeasurable bonus to DPR. Not to mention eating less attacks due to the Dimensional line's insane mobility. Yeah, it's a limited option, but it should be. You can flurry a flying enemy with it (Flying enemies being a huge problem for most monks).
Combine that with two handing a temple sword with power attack and improved critical, and I dare say the UnMonk pulls ahead.
Sohei has the edge on damage in the late game fighting a still enemy that does not attempt to outmaneuver the Monk and does not try to attack him back.
But Sohei has to take painful losses: it misses out on AC (either because they went Brawling and light armor just doesn't scale as well as unarmored AC), mobility (because they can only flurry and move with Pummeling Charge, they lose Abundant Step and Fast Movement), utility (no Stunning Fist, no Purity of Body, no useful ki stuff).
Sohei does make for an excellent throwing build with Ricochet Toss though, and it's great at reach.
Oh, and Sohei cannot use Medusa's Wrath as well as the UnMonk.
Yeah, no Flying Kick is probably the single biggest point against Sohei, though they can get easy Mounted Skirmisher.
Light armor can be exploited to stack dexterity at the expense of wisdom, but in the long run Sohei is probably better-off just replicating standard unarmored Monk. They lose out on some ki powers, but they do have enough Qinggong options to take at least Barkskin and one other benefit.
Sohei can also make interesting switch-hitters with bow/sword flurry.
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Hell, you can give the UnMonk Outflank since I think that works with savant, more than making up for the accuracy difference.
Unfortunately, there is reason to think that's not how that works. Which sucks, because I think it would be an incredibly cool option as well.
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Light armor can be exploited to stack dexterity at the expense of wisdom, but in the long run Sohei is probably better-off just replicating standard unarmored Monk.
Not just in the long-run. The unarmored monk will ALWAYS have a better AC (unless they dumped Wisdom) so long as they're smart enough to get Mage Armor up. (A wand or pearl of power with a spellcasting buddy isn't hard. In PFS my monk has a wand and a few potions in case no one can use the wand. The potions have yet to be touched.)
Unfortunately, there is reason to think that's not how that works. Which sucks, because I think it would be an incredibly cool option as well.
Damn. For real? It's not technically official, but close enough. That really stinks, actually.
You would think Outflank would make more sense in throwing an opponent of balance with Dimensional Savant than just two bros. I mean, there's one guy whooping your ass from both sides. I know you still get the flanking bonus... but there's one guy on both sides!! He's so fast there's two of himself. Imagine if he also had Jabbing Dancer as well. Gotta go fast, indeed.
But seriously though, just getting the flanking is still a huge boon. Ring of Ki Mastery? Blink all the time. I also like that it serves as a huge defensive option. You can teleport twice your speed. If things get hairy, flurry and be a very far away. Or just never end up adjacent to the opponent in the first place.
Man, with all that said, Sohei is kind of... really boring. Like a discount Fighter and a discount Monk.
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Cool, thanks for the thoughts on specific combat styles.
I've found the benefit of mobility varies quite a bit from game to game. I'm in two campaigns right now. One is full of skirmishing, and melee bruisers have to move more than 5ft about half the time. The other is closer quarters and you have to move more than 5ft maybe once per combat - if the enemy doesn't close with you first.
The Dimensional trick is super cool (even without Outflank) but I'm not sure it's that game-changing a benefit for the number of feats invested and the ki cost limitation. I think it's fair to file it under generally better mobility.
I didn't mention the 1.5x with a two-handed weapon because I expected in the long run it would just make up for the weapon training bonus to damage. Str 30 at level 20 gives you a bonus .5 Str of +5 damage, same as weapon training with the gloves. But I hadn't considered the gap before Weapon Training kicks in, which is very relevant.
I will also point out - even with a base Wis of just 14, a Sohei will always have a better AC if they're unarmored. Only 1-2 points at lower levels, eventually becoming 6-10 points better.
I can see the high level gap, but how do you figure better unarmoured AC at low levels? Leather at least matches the level 1 bonus with 14 Wis, and by level 2 you should have a chain shirt, probably masterwork, for +4. And that's assuming you haven't used the Wis savings to boost Dex.
Man, with all that said, Sohei is kind of... really boring. Like a discount Fighter and a discount Monk.
I think the better saves and skills, advantages of flurry over standard TWF, and Qinggong powers are enough to make it better than a discount fighter. I agree that the lack of mobility and varied ki abilities make it feel less monk-like to me, though not necessarily worse.
Light armor can be exploited to stack dexterity at the expense of wisdom, but in the long run Sohei is probably better-off just replicating standard unarmored Monk.Not just in the long-run. The unarmored monk will ALWAYS have a better AC (unless they dumped Wisdom) so long as they're smart enough to get Mage Armor up. (A wand or pearl of power with a spellcasting buddy isn't hard. In PFS my monk has a wand and a few potions in case no one can use the wand. The potions have yet to be touched.)
Yeah, it's pretty much always going to be better to go unarmored unless doing something odd, like having a Sohei with mithral medium armor and a quickdraw light shield (goes away to flurry, comes back to defend).
Actually one way to create a hilariously unorthodox Monk is to go Sohei with one level of Oracle with a revelation that substitutes charisma for AC. You can have a "Monk" who dumps wisdom and dexterity to pack on charisma, and then wears medium armor and flurries a polearm.
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I will also point out - even with a base Wis of just 14, a Sohei will always have a better AC if they're unarmored. Only 1-2 points at lower levels, eventually becoming 6-10 points better.I can see the high level gap, but how do you figure better unarmoured AC at low levels? Leather at least matches the level 1 bonus with 14 Wis, and by level 2 you should have a chain shirt, probably masterwork, for +4. And that's assuming you haven't used the Wis savings to boost Dex.
Because all monks should get Mage Armor until level 11-13ish when they can afford +5 bracers. So - a Wis 14 monk with Mage Armor will be 2 points higher than a Sohei with a chain shirt. The chain shirt may close the gap to only 1AC at level 2-3 when they get they make it a +1 chain shirt, but then at 4 the unarmored monk gets +1 class bonus at 4.
As they level the gap will only increase as the unarmored monk gets more class bonuses and wears +Wis headbands, and eventually gets +5 or more bracers to replace Mage Armor.
and a quickdraw light shield (goes away to flurry, comes back to defend).No GM I've ever met would allow both free actions in the same turn.
That's... kind of sad. Hopefully they still let casters juggle weapons and light shields while casting.
That's against the meaning of a turn.
A turn and all of the actions in that round happen simultaneously. If you are casting, that means you are using a free hand for the rest of the round. It's not like the world stops for your actions. You need to consider that everything is happening simultaneously.
That's against the meaning of a turn.
A turn and all of the actions in that round happen simultaneously. If you are casting, that means you are using a free hand for the rest of the round. It's not like the world stops for your actions. You need to consider that everything is happening simultaneously.
So... a reach Cleric can't wield his polearm at all on a turn where he casts a spell? If we're going to start enforcing 'conceptual rules' about every action being simultaneous, a lot of things people take for granted are gonna have to go.
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Yep. That's how I'd play it.
"I cast Divine Favor, end turn."
"Ok, this goblin runs towards you and tries to bite you. "
"Can I take an Attack of Opportunity with my 2H weapon?"
"No, you are finishing the casting of a spell when this happens."
Same thing for using a light shield when casting and such.
Being very strict with casting rules and lax with martial rules is how I handle the caster martial disparity.
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Yep. That's how I'd play it.
"I cast Divine Favor, end turn."
"Ok, this goblin runs towards you and tries to bite you. "
"Can I take an Attack of Opportunity with my 2H weapon?"
"No, you are finishing the casting of a spell when this happens."
Same thing for using a light shield when casting and such.
Being very strict with casting rules and lax with martial rules is how I handle the caster martial disparity.
Fair enough, but it's completely outside of the actual rules text and contrary to how most people run the game. It's also a long trip down the rabbit hole when you start to ask questions like:
"If everything in a round is simultaneous, then do I have to roll a concentration check retroactively for that spell I cast on my turn before that creature hit me on it's turn, since I got hit 'when I was finishing my spell'? If I fail that check, does the creature I affected with the spell then get its turn back? Can I retroactively say that I was casting defensively and roll a check for that, since I would have been casting defensively had I known that I was being attacked at the time?"
The game uses "turn-based logic", so trying to shoe-horn in simultaneous situations gets pretty weird.
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Fair enough, but it's completely outside of the actual rules text and contrary to how most people run the game.
It may be contrary to how most people run the game (no clue) but it isn't actually outside of the rules text since the limit on free actions is entirely up to GM discretion.
I do agree that most seem to not run casting/two-handed weapons that way.
I will also point out - even with a base Wis of just 14, a Sohei will always have a better AC if they're unarmored. Only 1-2 points at lower levels, eventually becoming 6-10 points better.
I won't say 'always', since part of the point of going sohei here is damage, so going with a strength build with only 'ok' dex and wis is likely where you would go. So a 14/14 would not be better than just grabbing armor early on.
I know there are buffs and such that makes the numbers better...but we are talking about early levels here. You can't afford anything good enough to matter in the long run there, and the casters don't have the spells to go around (since they need those same buffs themselves). So overall, I would still advise them to go with armor for the first few levels, even if you are a weapon user that won't go with brawling.
But yes- it is a trade you do with sohei when you focus on brawling armor. AC for melee power. Still having perfect will saves makes that sting a little easier.
Yeah, no Flying Kick is probably the single biggest point against Sohei, though they can get easy Mounted Skirmisher.
That is actually my problem with unmonk- it isn't a point against them for too long.
Because there are several decent options for monks that lets them move an attack at the same time.
The most obvious would be pummeling style. It is the style that seems tailor made to 'solve unarmed build problems'. Even if you are unmonk, you probably still want the style because it gives you clustershot with unarmed strikes. And it eventually gives pounce, at around the level that most people get pounce. So it is hardly underpowered. The fact that it existed before made me really dislike the flying kick- unmonk only solved problems that were solved almost immediately before the unchained book.
Also, now there is outslug style. With an extra 5' to your 5' step and penalty free lunge, it is rather viable for a pounce alternative. Unfortunately, it doesn't turn on for them until level 13 (since they are 3/4 BAB, and need lunge in the middle). Still, it lets you use unarmed strikes or the cestus. So it has its uses. It lets you get in AoO free against giants, and it is a wonder for getting into flank position.
That is actually my problem with unmonk- it isn't a point against them for too long.
Because there are several decent options for monks that lets them move an attack at the same time.
The most obvious would be pummeling style. It is the style that seems tailor made to 'solve unarmed build problems'. Even if you are unmonk, you probably still want the style because it gives you clustershot with unarmed strikes. And it eventually gives pounce, at around the level that most people get pounce. So it is hardly underpowered. The fact that it existed before made me really dislike the flying kick- unmonk only solved problems that were solved almost immediately before the unchained book.
You give up too much with that. Pummeling Style forbids you from using Dragon, Jabbing or Ascetic Style. Not worth it.
Hell, you could just go with Mantis or something else.
Fair enough, but it's completely outside of the actual rules text and contrary to how most people run the game.
It may be contrary to how most people run the game (no clue) but it isn't actually outside of the rules text since the limit on free actions is entirely up to GM discretion.
I do agree that most seem to not run casting/two-handed weapons that way.
Well...
As with any free action, the GM may decide a reasonable limit to how many times per round you can release and re-grasp the weapon (one release and re-grasp per round is fair)..
It's an odd qualifier about GM being the arbiter of free actions, considering that they go to pains to generally say that the GM is the arbiter of everything. And then they say what it "should" be again anyways.
Anyhow, I do hate the conceptual idea of quickdraw hijinks that mean a shield is going onto someone's back and returning. However, look at it as the classic move where a character uses their light-shield-hand to make a sudden two-handed strike when they have an opening, and it's quite thematic and appropriate - it's a martial trick that requires a specially worn light shield and a feat.
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Because all monks should get Mage Armor until level 11-13ish when they can afford +5 bracers. So - a Wis 14 monk with Mage Armor will be 2 points higher than a Sohei with a chain shirt. The chain shirt may close the gap to only 1AC at level 2-3 when they get they make it a +1 chain shirt, but then at 4 the unarmored monk gets +1 class bonus at 4.
Ah. I tend not to assume Mage Armour for monks because it relies on having an ally with that particular spell. It's not all that hard, but it's not something you can be confident in - my current monk went four levels without a mage in the party. Though thanks for reminding me I should ask for that buff now that we have someone to cast it!
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Ah. I tend not to assume Mage Armour for monks because it relies on having an ally with that particular spell. It's not all that hard, but it's not something you can be confident in - my current monk went four levels without a mage in the party. Though thanks for reminding me I should ask for that buff now that we have someone to cast it!
You had nobody with either Mage Armor on their spell list (even if unused for whatever reason) or UMD? Because Wands of Mage Armor are super cheap for what they provide.
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Nope. Monk, Inquisitor, and Urban Ranger. Not the most balanced party but worked pretty well for a casual game.
The other campaign also fit that bill, actually, until my monk/barbarian retrained to a monk/bloodrager. Other characters were a paladin, oracle, and alchemist. Someone probably could have taken UMD but we haven't missed it.
Yeah, no Flying Kick is probably the single biggest point against Sohei, though they can get easy Mounted Skirmisher.
Light armor can be exploited to stack dexterity at the expense of wisdom, but in the long run Sohei is probably better-off just replicating standard unarmored Monk. They lose out on some ki powers, but they do have enough Qinggong options to take at least Barkskin and one other benefit.
Sohei can also make interesting switch-hitters with bow/sword flurry.
Light armor means the Sohei will be wearing a mithral breastplate or Celestial Armor by late game.
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Light armor means the Sohei will be wearing a mithral breastplate or Celestial Armor by late game.Yeah, no Flying Kick is probably the single biggest point against Sohei, though they can get easy Mounted Skirmisher.
Light armor can be exploited to stack dexterity at the expense of wisdom, but in the long run Sohei is probably better-off just replicating standard unarmored Monk. They lose out on some ki powers, but they do have enough Qinggong options to take at least Barkskin and one other benefit.
Sohei can also make interesting switch-hitters with bow/sword flurry.
Neither of which can have the Brawling enchantment, which is the only draw for using armor.
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Why couldn't the Brawling enchantment be placed on a Mithral Breastplate? Mithral medium armor counts as light armor in basically every way except for proficentcy, there is no stated exception for enchantments anywhere in the rules.
I would also challenge that a Sohei exclusively using Unarmed Strike is not being played correctly.
Can't really see the point of Unarmed Sohei over a Brawler, say, Mutagenic Mauler.
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Why couldn't the Brawling enchantment be placed on a Mithral Breastplate? Mithral medium armor counts as light armor in basically every way except for proficentcy, there is no stated exception for enchantments anywhere in the rules.
Mithral armor: What exactly does it mean when it says mithral armor is counted as one category lighter for “other limitations?”
This means that mithral armor allows its wearer to use it when her own class features or special abilities demand her to wear lighter armor; in other words, the character wearing the armor is less limited. For example, a bard can cast spells in mithral breastplate without arcane spell failure, a barbarian can use her fast movement in mithral fullplate, a ranger can use his combat style in mithral fullplate, brawlers, swashbucklers, and gunslingers can keep their nimble bonus in mithral breastplate, rogues keep evasion in mithral breastplate, a brawler can flurry in mithral breastplate, characters without Endurance can sleep in mithral breastplate without becoming fatigued, and so on. It does not change the armor’s actual category, which means that you can still store a creature one size category larger in a hosteling mithral fullplate, and you can’t enhance a mithral breastplate with special abilities that require it to be light armor, like brawling (though you could enhance it with special abilities that require it to be medium armor), and so on.
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Can't really see the point of Unarmed Sohei over a Brawler, say, Mutagenic Mauler.
Weapon Training, including two options of Advanced weapon Training, as well as non-feat tax access to weapon mastery feats. Also the ability to combine Pummeling Charge with some great mounted feats like Spirited Charge.
Can't really see the point of Unarmed Sohei over a Brawler, say, Mutagenic Mauler.Weapon Training, including two options of Advanced weapon Training, as well as non-feat tax access to weapon mastery feats. Also the ability to combine Pummeling Charge with some great mounted feats like Spirited Charge.
Shruggies. AWT is great only if you need it.
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Celestial Armor can use Brawling, as it is light armor.Neither of which can have the Brawling enchantment, which is the only draw for using armor.Light armor means the Sohei will be wearing a mithral breastplate or Celestial Armor by late game.Yeah, no Flying Kick is probably the single biggest point against Sohei, though they can get easy Mounted Skirmisher.
Light armor can be exploited to stack dexterity at the expense of wisdom, but in the long run Sohei is probably better-off just replicating standard unarmored Monk. They lose out on some ki powers, but they do have enough Qinggong options to take at least Barkskin and one other benefit.
Sohei can also make interesting switch-hitters with bow/sword flurry.
If your GM allows customizing a named armor. It's basically house rules though.
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Celestial Armor can use Brawling, as it is light armor.Neither of which can have the Brawling enchantment, which is the only draw for using armor.Light armor means the Sohei will be wearing a mithral breastplate or Celestial Armor by late game.Yeah, no Flying Kick is probably the single biggest point against Sohei, though they can get easy Mounted Skirmisher.
Light armor can be exploited to stack dexterity at the expense of wisdom, but in the long run Sohei is probably better-off just replicating standard unarmored Monk. They lose out on some ki powers, but they do have enough Qinggong options to take at least Barkskin and one other benefit.
Sohei can also make interesting switch-hitters with bow/sword flurry.
As a specific armor, technically Celestial Armor can't use any additional enchantments.
Edit: Those dang ninjas!
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Pretty sure the restriction on augmenting specific magic items is a PFS rule, not a Pathfinder rule. The base magic item rules don't treat specific items any differently than enhancement(and equivalent) only items.If your GM allows customizing a named armor. It's basically house rules though.Celestial Armor can use Brawling, as it is light armor.Neither of which can have the Brawling enchantment, which is the only draw for using armor.Light armor means the Sohei will be wearing a mithral breastplate or Celestial Armor by late game.Yeah, no Flying Kick is probably the single biggest point against Sohei, though they can get easy Mounted Skirmisher.
Light armor can be exploited to stack dexterity at the expense of wisdom, but in the long run Sohei is probably better-off just replicating standard unarmored Monk. They lose out on some ki powers, but they do have enough Qinggong options to take at least Barkskin and one other benefit.
Sohei can also make interesting switch-hitters with bow/sword flurry.
Except there are no rules dealing with how much the specific item enhancements cost as a piece of the item, so any additional enchantment would inherently require house-rules.
For example - with celestial armor costing 22,400, did it start with mithril chainmail base (4150), or steel (300)? +3 mithril chainmail would run 13150 - so celestial costs 9250? Does it increase it to +4 for the extra dex, with the fly costing the extra 2250?
No one knows. Any extrapolation would be a house-rule.
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If pricing is at GM discretion, then specific items are treated differently from those without unique powers. Because the price of a +5 Brawling Light Fortification chain shirt is not at GM discretion (Rule 0 aside).
RAW on the matter of upgrading specific items is a yellow light: neither fully allowed nor disallowed. Proceed with caution.
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For specific magic armor and weapons, the price for the base item may be hard to determine, as some abilities may have been priced as plus-based properties and some as gp-based properties. Without knowing which is which, how to increase the price (using the plus-based table or flat gp addition) can't be determined. If this happens and nobody can agree on a fair price, it's best to not upgrade the item, or ask the GM for permission to pseudo-upgrade the item by swapping it for a different item with a price that can be calculated with the normal rules.
So, house rules.
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Sure is great the unchained monk doesn't have to deal with all these silly armor rules.
;D
So you would allow a ring of continuous true strike for 8000 gp? Cause that's the specific price/result.No more than anything to do with magic items is a house rule.Yes. Yes it is. Because it's a subjective GM ruling rather than having specific prices/results.
Hey, make my ring of continuous mage armor first! :)
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Sure is great the unchained monk doesn't have to deal with all these silly armor rules.
;D
My theory is that the resistance against the Unchained Monk is due to people having more fun bending themselves backwards to find the exploitability of an otherwise mediocre class.
I remember when it was "THE UNCHAINED MONK IS USELESS", then it was "It's just a beatstick" and now it's about the handful of builds you can still do with the monk and emotional attachments to the aesthetic of a high will save on a reference sheet.
Honestly why don't we just compare builds with the same metrics?