2 / 3 casters, 6th level casters

[Deighton Thrane]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

And how many of the conditions are permanent? Because anything temporary (ie: fight long) can simply be dealt with.

Well, I would say blindness/deafness, but having a character blinded at level 3-4 still means you're heading back to town to find a healer to take care of it for you anyway.

Personally, my party's been having a bad time of with fear spells/auras lately. It's been such a non issue for so long that we didn't even bother with scrolls/potions of remove fear. Then we started fighting large groups of enemies with fear auras, and the fighter and barbarian would inevitably be sitting the entire fight out, while the druid and sorcerer had to take care of an entire CR=APL+3 fight on their own. It's kind of changed my stance on the necessity of status clearing items.

[Deadmanwalking]

Sure, but fear-stacking is a pretty specific instance.

Other conditions don't stack like that, and Remove Fear is a 1st level spell, so 6-level casters get it the same time as anyone else.

[Michael Sayre]

Some of the 2/3 casters get condition removal/management spells early or at the same time as full casters-
Hunter in particular gets delay poison right at level 1, at least 2 levels earlier than any other class, and gains neutralize poison at the same time as the cleric and oracle (though 2 levels behind the druid). They also gain raise animal companion earlier than any other class for whatever that's worth. The Inquisitor can specifically heal conditions the full casters may struggle with, like grappled and pinned (though I just discovered that the Inquisitor gets cleanse[i] and [i]heal at the same level, which is like, why?).

Calth wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Are those conditions really that big of a deal?

They're certainly annoying at times, but I'm pretty skeptical of the notion that it's so severe that you literally can't have a party without a cleric and still function.

Especially since I don't think I've ever actually seen someone play a cleric in a campaign in.. at least four years. What I remember more is parties buying scrolls and wands for condition removal that they almost never end up using up.

It is highly dependent on the GM. If your GM really likes inflicting conditions, as one of my current ones does (As in about one third of battles involve either conditions or ability damage) scrolls/wands are not gonna cut it.

Really? Because in most campaigns we use scrolls and wands for condition removal almost exclusively. It's often hard to know which conditions you might run into on any given day, so loading up on conditional spells you may or not use is often a great way to drastically undermine your character's effectiveness.

[Calth]

Ssalarn wrote:

Some of the 2/3 casters get condition removal/management spells early or at the same time as full casters-

Hunter in particular gets delay poison right at level 1, at least 2 levels earlier than any other class, and gains neutralize poison at the same time as the cleric and oracle (though 2 levels behind the druid). They also gain raise animal companion earlier than any other class for whatever that's worth. The Inquisitor can specifically heal conditions the full casters may struggle with, like grappled and pinned (though I just discovered that the Inquisitor gets cleanse[i] and [i]heal at the same level, which is like, why?).

Calth wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Are those conditions really that big of a deal?

They're certainly annoying at times, but I'm pretty skeptical of the notion that it's so severe that you literally can't have a party without a cleric and still function.

Especially since I don't think I've ever actually seen someone play a cleric in a campaign in.. at least four years. What I remember more is parties buying scrolls and wands for condition removal that they almost never end up using up.

It is highly dependent on the GM. If your GM really likes inflicting conditions, as one of my current ones does (As in about one third of battles involve either conditions or ability damage) scrolls/wands are not gonna cut it.

Really? Because in most campaigns we use scrolls and wands for condition removal almost exclusively. It's often hard to know which conditions you might run into on any given day, so loading up on conditional spells you may or not use is often a great way to drastically undermine your character's effectiveness.

As I said, highly dependent on the GM. By level 10 we had probably gone through close to two wands worth of restorations, as most fights we had above level 7 or so had creatures dealing ability damage. That's simply not viable to deal with via wand/scroll.

[Michael Sayre]

Ability damage is one of the more manageable conditions; you heal naturally at a rate of 1 per day, you can double that healing with the Heal skill, and it takes 2 points of damage for each -1 penalty. The amount coming at a party and the amount their taking will certainly vary from game to game, but I have to wonder if the necessity isn't being exaggerated to a certain degree, not necessarily intentionally.

I suppose ultimately all I can say is that I think a party of all 2/3 casters is totally viable, and I've never seen an official or 3pp adventure that actually required you to have a full caster of any stripe. Obviously that only covers a certain percentage of the adventures that are actually had, but I think it may be indicative that the people designing the game don't see having a full caster as a necessity.

[Atarlost]

Reincarnate is not an acceptable substitute for raise dead except on pure casters and synthesist summoners. It's the rip up your character sheet spell because it can impose a 6 point primary stat reduction that can only be removed with wish or miracle. 8 point if you have goblin or orc PCs.

Hunters only get delay poison early and neutralize on spec. They're still late to disease, and completely lack the ability to remove paralysis, blindness/deafness, curse, ability drain, and negative levels.

[Calth]

Ssalarn wrote:

Ability damage is one of the more manageable conditions; you heal naturally at a rate of 1 per day, you can double that healing with the Heal skill, and it takes 2 points of damage for each -1 penalty. The amount coming at a party and the amount their taking will certainly vary from game to game, but I have to wonder if the necessity isn't being exaggerated to a certain degree, not necessarily intentionally.

I suppose ultimately all I can say is that I think a party of all 2/3 casters is totally viable, and I've never seen an official or 3pp adventure that actually required you to have a full caster of any stripe. Obviously that only covers a certain percentage of the adventures that are actually had, but I think it may be indicative that the people designing the game don't see having a full caster as a necessity.

I didn't say 6/9 casters weren't viable, I said the opposite. I just said that relying solely on wands/scrolls for all your condition removal is not always viable. And fyi, the amount of ability damage we were being inflicted with usually ranged from 6-15 points. 6 creatures doing 1d4 ability damage (sometimes to 2 different stats) per attack really adds up. Yes this is way outside the norm, but I stand by my recommendation that in a 6/9 caster party to pick up the spells when the first become available.

[voska66]

My Favorite is the Inquisitor.

A party of 2/3 casters is quite powerful. What they lack in spells they make up for in versatility. Definitely one of the more fun party's to play in. Definitely not as powerful as party with full casters and character focused on combat but more able to hold their own.

[Michael Sayre]

Atarlost wrote:

Hunters only get delay poison early and neutralize on spec. They're still late to disease, and completely lack the ability to remove paralysis, blindness/deafness, curse, ability drain, and negative levels.

They actually get freedom of movement, so they're not completely unable to deal with paralysis. And in the btoader picture of "is a party of all 2/3 casters viable", a hunter, inquisitor, warpriest, and skald/bard can cover a pretty broad array of conditions, if at a bit of a delay.

[Legio_MCMLXXXVII]

I'm actually in a party right now composed of nothing but 6 level casters, and one Bloodrager. We have so far slaughtered our way through the first book of Reign of Winter without serious opposition.

The party is an Arcane Bloodline Bloodrager, a Summoner, B(e)ard, Angry Bard, and myself as a Medium. Nothing has posed a significant challenge yet, and I haven't even been making use of my six level casting options.