Which is your favorite?
Is a party of all 2/3 casters viable?
Do you think that they are the most balanced classes?
What is the best group composition for three people with only 2/3 casters?
Thanks!
Which is your favorite?
I have a thing for the bard, but the inquisitor is damn sweet too.
Is a party of all 2/3 casters viable?
Sure. They will suffer in that 6th level caster get some critical spells later, but it's dealable. Not as amazing as having 9th level casters around, but then again, what is?
Do you think that they are the most balanced classes?
More or less. 6th level and 4th level casters are *usually* pretty good balance wise, so long as you ignore a couple of anomalies (*cough* summoner *cough*).
What is the best group composition for three people with only 2/3 casters?
That's actually a really hard question to answer. Off the top of my head, the roles you want are battlefield control, buffing, preferably some summoning, divine condition removal, skills and damage dealing(of course). Plus as much utility as you can pack in.
Lets list what fills each roll decently if you pick the right archetype (that I can remember offhand)
Battlefield Control: Magus, Hunter, Summoner (secondary - Bard)
Buffing: Bard, Skald, Alchemist, Investigator, Summoner (Secondary - Pretty much everyone)
Summoning: Inquisitor, Summoner, Hunter(maybe?) (Secondary - Pretty much everyone)
Condition Removal: Skald, Magus, Warpriest (secondary - Pretty much everyone)
Skills: Pretty much everyone
Damage Dealing: Pretty much everyone
So...pick the three you like best that fill all the roles? You could use a Conversion Inquisitor with that summoning archetype,a Hunter and a Warpriest, or a Magus, a Skald and a Summoner. You have a freakish amount of flexibility there, so it really all comes down to personal taste.
Which is your favorite?
I have a thing for the bard, but the inquisitor is damn sweet too.
Is a party of all 2/3 casters viable?
Sure. They will suffer in that 6th level caster get some critical spells later, but it's dealable. Not as amazing as having 9th level casters around, but then again, what is?
Do you think that they are the most balanced classes?
More or less. 6th level and 4th level casters are *usually* pretty good balance wise, so long as you ignore a couple of anomalies (*cough* summoner *cough*).
What is the best group composition for three people with only 2/3 casters?
That's actually a really hard question to answer. Off the top of my head, the roles you want are battlefield control, buffing, preferably some summoning, divine condition removal, skills and damage dealing(of course). Plus as much utility as you can pack in.
Lets list what fills each roll decently if you pick the right archetype (that I can remember offhand)
Battlefield Control: Magus, Hunter, Summoner (secondary - Bard)
Buffing: Bard, Skald, Alchemist, Investigator, Summoner (Secondary - Pretty much everyone)
Summoning: Inquisitor, Summoner, Hunter(maybe?) (Secondary - Pretty much everyone)
Condition Removal: Skald, Magus, Warpriest (secondary - Pretty much everyone)
Skills: Pretty much everyone
Damage Dealing: Pretty much everyoneSo...pick the three you like best that fill all the roles? You could use a Conversion Inquisitor with that summoning archetype,a Hunter and a Warpriest, or a Magus, a Skald and a Summoner. You have a freakish amount of flexibility there, so it really all comes down to personal taste.
thanks for responding. I am a little confused on what you mean by "Sure. They will suffer in that 6th level caster get some critical spells later, but it's dealable. Not as amazing as having 9th level casters around, but then again, what is" can you plz clarify
thanks for responding. I am a little confused on what you mean by "Sure. They will suffer in that 6th level caster get some critical spells later, but it's dealable. Not as amazing as having 9th level casters around, but then again, what is" can you plz clarifyWhich is your favorite?
I have a thing for the bard, but the inquisitor is damn sweet too.
Is a party of all 2/3 casters viable?
Sure. They will suffer in that 6th level caster get some critical spells later, but it's dealable. Not as amazing as having 9th level casters around, but then again, what is?
Do you think that they are the most balanced classes?
More or less. 6th level and 4th level casters are *usually* pretty good balance wise, so long as you ignore a couple of anomalies (*cough* summoner *cough*).
What is the best group composition for three people with only 2/3 casters?
That's actually a really hard question to answer. Off the top of my head, the roles you want are battlefield control, buffing, preferably some summoning, divine condition removal, skills and damage dealing(of course). Plus as much utility as you can pack in.
Lets list what fills each roll decently if you pick the right archetype (that I can remember offhand)
Battlefield Control: Magus, Hunter, Summoner (secondary - Bard)
Buffing: Bard, Skald, Alchemist, Investigator, Summoner (Secondary - Pretty much everyone)
Summoning: Inquisitor, Summoner, Hunter(maybe?) (Secondary - Pretty much everyone)
Condition Removal: Skald, Magus, Warpriest (secondary - Pretty much everyone)
Skills: Pretty much everyone
Damage Dealing: Pretty much everyoneSo...pick the three you like best that fill all the roles? You could use a Conversion Inquisitor with that summoning archetype,a Hunter and a Warpriest, or a Magus, a Skald and a Summoner. You have a freakish amount of flexibility there, so it really all comes down to personal taste.
He is saying that 6th level casters will suffer some because they get spells later in the game than 9th level casters do, but they will be ok. He is also saying nothing really compares to 9th level casters.
The most versatile group would have the most versatile spell lists. Warpriest uses the cleric spell list, and an Unchained Rogue with the new Eldritch Scoundrel archetype has 6th level prepared casting from the wizard spell list. That should cover everything you want from magic. A good third choice would be an archer Bard. Between the Bard and the Rogue, all skills would be covered, and the Bard can make up for the rogues lost sneak attack dice with inspire courage. A hunter would also be a decent choice for a bonus flanking buddy.
Which is your favorite?
Is a party of all 2/3 casters viable?
Do you think that they are the most balanced classes?
What is the best group composition for three people with only 2/3 casters?
Thanks!
My favorite 6/9 caster? Tough one. I really like Mesmerist, Summoner, and the 6/9 caster Rogue archetype. Spiritualist and Psychic Investigator aren't bad, though.
And yeah, all 6/9 is one of the best parties.
In general, yes. I generally consider Magus to be poorly balanced (a nuisance for GMs to plan around and boring because it focuses on a single spell) and Summoner needs to be using the Unchained version.
As far as a three-person 6/9 caster party goes, Warpriest plus the 6/9 caster Rogue archetype cover everything between them, and you can make the third whatever you want. Summoner would be a good choice because of the versatility of summoning. Occultist gets the most spells known of the 6/9 spontaneous casters, so that's not a bad choice either. If you're looking for access to more spells, Hunter and Psychic Investigator get access to the other two major full-caster lists, while Bard and Mesmerist share a lot of unique spells.
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Which is your favorite?
Investigator's currently probably winning my heart, but Bard and Inquisitor remain super close seconds.
Is a party of all 2/3 casters viable?
Sure. You might need to dabble in some slightly more obscure Archetypes to get access to certain spells the game assumes access to, but it's very viable.
Do you think that they are the most balanced classes?
Probably, yeah. 4-level casters are also in the running, but probably not quite as well-balanced. 9-level casters tend to be able to shatter worlds at high levels, while (again at high levels) martial characters tend to feel a serious lack of narrative options.
What is the best group composition for three people with only 2/3 casters?
That really depends. To be the 'best' you need a prepared Caster who can do condition removal spells (Warpriest is technically best, but Alchemist or investigator also work). You need at least one melee and one ranged combatant, and you need skills covered. Offensive casting is also a very good idea.
For a three person party, I'm also inclined to think an animal companion is a very good idea. And buff spells are a good idea, too. So. Melee Bard (for melee, skills, and buffs) backed up by a Summoner's Eidolon and Summon Monster spells, an archery focused Warpriest for ranged damage and condition removal, and the aforementioned Summoner for offensive casting (Pit spells, Black Tentacles, and the like).
A lot of other options exist (Melee Hunter + Archer Bard + Mesmerist or whatever) but all cover those basic roles.
Thanks!
No problem. :)
I love 6 lvl casters, those are pretty much the only classes I enjoy playing. I absolutely think a group of all 6 lvl casters is viable, as long as there isn't more than one bard.
My faves are Inquisitor, Hunter, and Spiritualist.
Fave 6 level caster is Inquisitor by far.
Between high UMD and spell kenning, a Skald probably makes a decent condition remover. Warpriest can also be a substitute if you want more reliable access.
Either a magus or that rogue with wizard casting people keep mentioning.
Throw in a hunter, alchemist, bard, etc to taste.
For funsies, have one each of arcane, divine, alchemical, and psychic casters in this theoretical party.
I think it could be a very versatile group. I allow 3PP classes, so Kobold Press' new Trickster class (the Rogue's answer to the Magus) would be a great addition to the party.
As mentioned, someone to do condition removal. So...Warpriest, Investigator, or Alchemist. Maybe Investigator since that group is a tad light on skills.So what is the strongest 6th level casting group of three?
Master Summoner, Fated Champion Skald, and what else?
Mesmerist can do condition removal as well
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I have played a magus in PFS, and just love the class. Yes, in melee I tend to focus on two spells (Shocking Grasp and Vampitric Touch), but I have often been the only arcane caster in the party. Spell Recall allows the magus to prepare a wide variety of spells; he need not prepare any spell more than once.
I am now playing a hunter (feral archetype). I have used Goodberry more than any other spell. I am a 6th level caster, but so far (we just hit 4th level) my other abilities have been more useful than magic.
The Dawnflower Dervish Bard really stands out as a potential melee monster; there's nothing that says you have to use Dervish Dance instead of something else. +6/4 to attack and damage through Battle Dance and Heroism by level 5 is pretty powerful.
Two-weapon Inquisitor is kind of the nuclear option though.
Oh, and Sacred Fist using Crusader's Flurry with a big two-hander is a murder-machine as well.
1) Summoner (but dont even suggest the unchained version , i would rather burn 10 unchained books than play that even once) and then i guess spiritualist.
2) Viable for what? The answer is probably yes to pretty much any game , but then again , so is literally any party where the GM makes the aventure.
3) In general they will ofc be the most balanced , 6th casters more or less stand in the middle from martials to full casters , so that is to be expected of them.
4) That greatly deppend on your own preference , there are already enough of these to assure plenty of good party combinations.
Design Manager
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Which is your favorite?
From Paizo, probably the Hunter followed closely by the Inquisitor, but it's always hard to go wrong with Bard.
Is a party of all 2/3 casters viable?
Absolutely. You can easily assemble all the tools necessary to navigate just about any adventure with 3-4 of the 2/3 casters.
Do you think that they are the most balanced classes?
Within Paizo's product line, yes, though there are certain exceptions. They tend to be versatile and capable, able to participate in all aspects of the game without having the game-breaking tools that some of the full casters have access to. They're also much less likely to fall apart when built with less than high system mastery, which means they tend to perform equally well across the spectrum of gaming deviations, from newbies to number-crunching vets.
The most prominent exception to this is probably the Summoner, largely because a) it isn't really a 2/3 caster, it's a full caster who tucks some of its casting ability into a separate class feature, and b) I can't really lump it into the "best balanced" group due to its extreme efficacy across multiple fields. While perhaps lacking the ability to hijack the narrative that a "true" full caster might have, the Summoner is still fully capable of taking over multiple roles simultaneously, often with more success and ease than the classes intended for those roles.
What is the best group composition for three people with only 2/3 casters?Thanks!
My personal recommendation would be Hunter, Inquisitor, and Spiritualist, though there's certainly a broad array of combinations that are all equally viable.
Which is your favorite?
Is a party of all 2/3 casters viable?
Do you think that they are the most balanced classes?
What is the best group composition for three people with only 2/3 casters?
Thanks!
Ugh. I guess Magus. I don't like the buffinder of 6th classes but aside from that, Magus does what I want.
Absolutely. The lack of teleport and resurrection until way later hurts, but APs and homebrew seem to have trouble handling those spells anyways.
Chained Master Summoner x3.
I actually find the Magus kind of annoying, in that they have to use their spells in melee for extra damage if they want to make up for the low non-spell damage they do because of how they need to be set-up to use their spells in melee, for damage. Yeah.
It's certainly not a bad package overall, but I'd much prefer mercilessly optimizing and exploiting the crap out of an Eldritch Knight for fun value.
Interesting -- we also have an ongoing thread about best group of 2 PCs.
Anyway, for this, here's one combination (with 2 variants), since it's getting REALLY late (I've got to stop staying up late on the messageboards . . .):
Hexcrafter Magus (arcane caster and debuffer, and hard-hitting martial)
Master Summoner with Eidolon built for skill (arcane caster and action economy maker)
Paladin (if 4/9 casters allowed into the mix) or Warpriest (otherwise) (divine caster including bad status removal, and tanky martial)
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Mesmerist can do condition removal as wellAs mentioned, someone to do condition removal. So...Warpriest, Investigator, or Alchemist. Maybe Investigator since that group is a tad light on skills.So what is the strongest 6th level casting group of three?
Master Summoner, Fated Champion Skald, and what else?
Not of things like poisons, diseases, or curses. And those are what you really need it on.
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I think it could be a very versatile group. I allow 3PP classes, so Kobold Press' new Trickster class (the Rogue's answer to the Magus) would be a great addition to the party.
Great point! If you allow non-Paizo material, I think The Trickster from Kobold Press would be an excellent candidate!
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Design Manager
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I think it could be a very versatile group. I allow 3PP classes, so Kobold Press' new Trickster class (the Rogue's answer to the Magus) would be a great addition to the party.Great point! If you allow non-Paizo material, I think The Trickster from Kobold Press would be an excellent candidate!
Trickster would currently be one of my top 3 favorite 2/3 casters, but my home group has replaced Vancian magic with spherecasting from Spheres of Power, and I haven't had time to review all the interactions between the Trickster's class features and the subsystem change. Once I do, I suspect it'll be a solid lock and will see a ton of use.
I'm also a big fan of 3pp classes that simulate the abilities of 2/3 casters using alternate casting systems, like the Psychic Warrior, Cryptic, and Guru from Dreamscarred Press.
Which is your favorite?
Bard and Inquisitor are my favorites! Magus is cool as well.
Is a party of all 2/3 casters viable?
Very much so.
Do you think that they are the most balanced classes?
Yes. Although not only because they are well designed, but also because Paizo is really bad at creating martials that can stay relevant and full casters who aren't completely overpowered.
What is the best group composition for three people with only 2/3 casters?
I'd go with Bard, Inquisitor, Magus and Summoner.
I made a party of Spell Warrior Skald, Arrowsong Minstrel Bard, Ecclesitheurge Cleric, and Arcanist before - switch the arcanist for a Mesmerist and the cleric for a Warpriest or Inquisitor. Maybe switch the Skald for a Magus if you really need the wizard list, 3 bard-list casters will have some overlap.
Which is your favorite?
Is a party of all 2/3 casters viable?
Do you think that they are the most balanced classes?
What is the best group composition for three people with only 2/3 casters?
Thanks!
Entirely! My dream team would be Inquisitor, Hunter, Magus, Investigator. And for a 5th wheel, a Bard. All 3 major magic types, plus plenty of skill points to go around.
Why? Skalds have all spell lists a couple times a day and have the CHA for UMD.
Spell Warrior has a more widely applicable song buff (Weapon enhancement bonus rather than rage) but it gives up Spell Kenning for counterspell stuff. It's a tough trade but arguably worth it. And this is the melee frontliner - sure they can cast from other lists with UMD but they won't have as much CHA as the Mesmerist, plus those get expensive.
I'm surprised there isn't more support for the alchemist, which has quickly become my favorite class. N.Jolly has written a pretty exceptional guide for the class that explores a lot of the ins-and-outs. If your party needs a melee striker, the "classic" beastmorph vivisectionist is sure to please, while a more range-oriented grenadier can put out a lot of pressure and stack some nice debuffs.
I've been playing a goblin winged marauder/grenadier with a lizardfolk vivisectionist/chirurgeon/internal alchemist cohort in our Iron Gods campaign and have been having the time of my life (even though my dire bat has seen virtually no use, I'm still extremely happy to have him.)
A grenadier with a bow, tangleshot arrows, and explosive missile (with acid + alchemist fire hybridization funnel combo flasks) is a fun, mobile build.
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Design Manager
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I think Alchemist tends to miss the top 3 for two reasons:
1) It's kind of a confused class without archetyping. A non-archetyped Alchemist tends to be mediocre at a lot of things but not really good at anything, so there's a bit of a learning curve associated with building one.
2) It's not really a caster, but it feels like it should fit the caster niche, and there's lots of little odd corner cases that come up tied to it being a "caster but not really". The Investigator is in similar territory, but his alchemy is really secondary to his other features, so it isn't as big a deal.
I think it's a really fun and interesting class, but I can definitely see why it wouldn't be as popular as some of the other 2/3 casters.
I think Alchemist tends to miss the top 3 for two reasons:
1) It's kind of a confused class without archetyping. A non-archetyped Alchemist tends to be mediocre at a lot of things but not really good at anything, so there's a bit of a learning curve associated with building one.
This is my biggest issue with the alchemist.
It's basically impossible to build a generalist alchemist, which consequently means that most archetypes are pure upgrades, since if you're building for mutagen bombs are barely worth the action economy and vice versa.
I wish Paizo would do... something to improve that, make balanced alchemists more viable, make sacrificing one of your class features for something else a meaningful trade, rather than just "Well I'm not going to use that class feature anwyays".
I think the alchemist is a fantastic class thematically, but less than great mechanically. I love the idea of a "mad bomber" type of character, but it looks like alchemists have so few bombs power day, that you're really stuck rationing the number of bombs you throw so you don't run out. Kind of a buzz kill that.
The bestiary and most published adventure have the baked in assumption that every party has a cleric. Paizo failed to give anyone else except one witch patron on schedule access to all condition removal and non-hp healing spells.
Shaman is also on schedule. You will need to Wandering Spirit for Life Spirit for Remove Poison though, but that is available at 4th, a level before Remove Poison, keeping it on schedule. Life Spirit also gives Heal and True Resurrection on schedule. Shaman also gets the Restoration line (including greater) on schedule naturally.
You are correct that the list of classes would on schedule removal is tragically short though.
Oracles get bad status removal just 1 level late (although 3rd level spells stink for needing to pick up multiple ones if you can't cover it with purchased Scrolls). Of course, they're not 6/9 casters -- if you are limited to 6/9 casters, you WILL have late bad status removal (which will get progressively later as you level up rather than just staying 1 level behind as it would for a 9/9 spontaneous caster).
1. Occultist. Can fill almost any party role and one of the few 3/4 2/3 classes to be a great tank.
2. A party of all Fighters is viable.
3. Not really. They are nice, but I've never thought they were particularly more or less powerful than martials or full casters. They are just different in build focuses.
4. Occultist, Hunter and Bard would be my pick. Enough bodies on the frontline, varied spells, can handle occult, wilderness and urban situations well.
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The bestiary and most published adventure have the baked in assumption that every party has a cleric. Paizo failed to give anyone else except one witch patron on schedule access to all condition removal and non-hp healing spells.
Eh. IME, Oracle does fine (and I've done a couple APs now).
That's only slightly delayed access, but Warpriest and Investigator get 3rd level spells at 7th (one level later than Oracle), and that works for basically everything but poison and full-on Restoration. For those, buy some scrolls.
Missing out on goodies like Breath of Life and in-party Raise Dead sucks, but it can be worked around.
Not of things like poisons, diseases, or curses. And those are what you really need it on.Mesmerist can do condition removal as wellAs mentioned, someone to do condition removal. So...Warpriest, Investigator, or Alchemist. Maybe Investigator since that group is a tad light on skills.So what is the strongest 6th level casting group of three?
Master Summoner, Fated Champion Skald, and what else?
The bestiary and most published adventure have the baked in assumption that every party has a cleric. Paizo failed to give anyone else except one witch patron on schedule access to all condition removal and non-hp healing spells.Eh. IME, Oracle does fine (and I've done a couple APs now).
That's only slightly delayed access, but Warpriest and Investigator get 3rd level spells at 7th (one level later than Oracle), and that works for basically everything but poison and full-on Restoration. For those, buy some scrolls.
Missing out on goodies like Breath of Life and in-party Raise Dead sucks, but it can be worked around.
A few archetypes can get access to some of these by "stealing" spells from other spell lists.
Examples off the top of my head:
-The Magician Bard can add spells (eventually five of them) from any other arcane casting cast. The Witch list offers them a lot of condition removal spells and even Raise Dead.
-The Voice of the Wild Bard can get six spells from the Ranger and Druid lists. So things like Neutalize Poison and Remove Disease are available.
-The Reliquarian Occultist can get some Cleric Spells through their Domain. The Healing Domain gets Breath of Life as a 5th level spell, and its Resurrection subdomain replaces that with Raise Dead. Alternatively the Restoration subdomain grants Remove Disease, Neutralize Poison, and Break Enchantment along with a condition-removing supernatural ability.
-While not a spell, the Life Giver Hex is available to Hexcrafter Magi. So basically a once-per-day, free Resurrection spell.
These, and probably others I didn't think of, could help fill some of the needs that you mentioned. I haven't worked out how much later than a Cleric they would get these options.
Are those conditions really that big of a deal?
They're certainly annoying at times, but I'm pretty skeptical of the notion that it's so severe that you literally can't have a party without a cleric and still function.
Especially since I don't think I've ever actually seen someone play a cleric in a campaign in.. at least four years. What I remember more is parties buying scrolls and wands for condition removal that they almost never end up using up.
I really, really like the 6/9 casters myself. Heck the only reason I haven't tried to get my table to abandon full casters is because oracles are a thing and none of the 6/9 casters pass as a solo healer. If Warpriest got an archetype like Hospitaller for Paladins and could grab status remove spells of 3rd level or higher a spell-level early to be on par with the crap the beastiary throws at you then I'd be a lot more comfortable with it.
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Are those conditions really that big of a deal?
{. . .}
Well, for starters, being dead is a seriously big deal.
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Are those conditions really that big of a deal?
{. . .}Well, for starters, being dead is a seriously big deal.
True. But it's also one of the more avoidable ones, and one that costs so much gold to fix that having to hire it done is kinda a drop in the bucket.
Besides, while Raise Dead isn't available until 13th, Reincarnate can be had at 10th and one level later than a Cleric gets Raise Dead.
It is highly dependent on the GM. If your GM really likes inflicting conditions, as one of my current ones does (As in about one third of battles involve either conditions or ability damage) scrolls/wands are not gonna cut it.
You can fix ability damage at 4th with a Warpriest, Investigator, or Alchemist. One level later than a Cleric, and the same time as an Oracle.
And how many of the conditions are permanent? Because anything temporary (ie: fight long) can simply be dealt with. you only need condition removal stuff for long-term problems.
Its on the shaman list.I couldn't find remove blindness/deafness on their list or in any of their spirits. That's the one druids are lacking for no reason as well. I'm pretty sure that's still not on any full caster lists except cleric and witch nor given with the needed discount to any less than full casters.The bestiary and most published adventure have the baked in assumption that every party has a cleric. Paizo failed to give anyone else except one witch patron on schedule access to all condition removal and non-hp healing spells.Shaman is also on schedule. You will need to Wandering Spirit for Life Spirit for Remove Poison though, but that is available at 4th, a level before Remove Poison, keeping it on schedule. Life Spirit also gives Heal and True Resurrection on schedule. Shaman also gets the Restoration line (including greater) on schedule naturally.
Shamans also have the Animist Archetype, which can remove many conditions with a Diplomacy check. Not super great unless you max Diplomacy, but Lore Shamans need some Cha anyway, and it can result in some hilarity.