You need a cleric or nature oracle for condition removal, so have one of those.
For the second slot a conj or divi wizard would do, but you could also do a 6th level caster such as bard, inquisitor, etc...
Also you should try to get your cavalier player to change classes to something useful like a paladin or barbarian if he wants to play a martial.
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Evangelist cleric w/ heroism domain (Sacred Summoning feat) + Occultist Arcanist
Take flagbearer also...later banner of the ancient kings and pair it with a wand of Moment of greatness and your summon army will be able to kill boss like PCs with all them buffs.
Inspire Greatness + Rage song on all those summons and the Cavilier. At level 8 you then start adding heroism ontop of that as a swift action. Your team is basically an instant army waiting to be summoned and the summons never need healing. They come in swinging and hopefully soak damage.
I also think going 2 full casters without summoning will make the Skald hate himself. Having only 2 team mates who get his buff will make him see how nitch a Skald really is. It is the only class I feel needs to be built around instead of a bard who is great no matter what team you shove one into. But the team I mentioned will help him shine majorly and will get through any written AP for sure.
I lean towards full-casters, even though they underperform at low-levels compared to melee.
That very much depends on the builds. You can build most full fasters similar in strength to martial builds (with the possible exception of a barbarian)
I'm not really liking the evangelist or giving up a 2nd domain but I can understand why it would be great for summons.
What if I am not going 2 full casters?
Maybe an invulnerable rager/urban barbarian + dip in unbreakable fighter...
Does barbarian rage and inspired rage stack?
A self buffing cleric/battle oracle, even an unarchetyped one, could work fine with the Skald. The Skald is definitely a class that needs to be built around and thankfully the cleric/battle oracle is quite adept at making use of rage. The obvious hole left in the party is Arcane casting, I would recommend some kind of summoning caster so the Arcane caster is still making some use out of the Skald's Inspired Rage.
Incidentally, is the Cavalier a small character? It's usually a good idea to make a small character so their mounts can fit in enclosed spaces like dungeons. I've never played one myself but I hear boar mounts are pretty awesome. I'm sure an enraged one would be even more so.
What races are on the table? If goblins are available, Roll With It is hard to beat as a 1st level feat, regardless of class.
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I’m fan of Dual cursed oracles. Re rolls saved my mates many times.
Take nature mystery and look the revelations, there are lots of useful things there. Natural Divination is super useful to make important checks and note than you can take the curse that makes you half animal to make it work with friend to the animals (cha to all saves, nice)
Plus you have an animal companion to flank buddies.
Take a good charisma score and you can’t go wrong.
And for the second one... Consider taking an alchemist, it’s a flexible character that have many tools to keep the party alive.
...But Goblins are Small-sized, so they're actually properly sized for a Small village...
As far as them existing peacefully in said village...ehhhh...
I'd honestly go a Caster-based Druid. You guys are lacking a full Divine caster, and it's been stated that you don't want to be a Supportbot (Evangelist Cleric), Healbot (Oradin/Cleric), or Trapfinder (Bard/Skald, Ranger, etc.)
That leaves the Druid, who can excel at summoning creatures, or by creating battlefield control spells and some sorts of Blasting. Also, since your healing is delayed (Cure Moderate is at 3rd level), this means you aren't really fit to be a healbot, and your buffs aren't extremely valuable, meaning no Supportbot. With 4 Skill Points/Level and not very good Class Skills, Trapfinder is out too.
Stormcaller Druids get access to Two domains by 9th level, can spontaneously cast any Domain spells she possesses, and gets the ability to see through Fog effects (Fog Cloud, Stinking Cloud, Etc).
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If you don't want to do support try a shaman for debuffs(evil eye, slumber, misfortune), combined with a good ol elf conjuration specced wizard.
If you want to hangover, Ra is better. Nethys doesnt have decent variant channel. Ra is neutral so you can take versatile channeling. Ra also has sun domain. I recommend evangelist since you're already cha focused.
Note for hangover clerics: you are still a battlefield controller so you'll want decent init. Unfortunately you're really MAD unless you use scion of war to use cha for init. However for all hangover clerics, your first feat has to be selective channeling.
For your group composition, I'd personally do an archer evangelist cleric(try erastil/ketephys for free longbow proficiency) since the group seems to be melee heavy, to help cover some ranged. It might be hard to unselect the everyone for hangover clerics.
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I'm not really liking the evangelist or giving up a 2nd domain but I can understand why it would be great for summons.
What if I am not going 2 full casters?
Maybe an invulnerable rager/urban barbarian + dip in unbreakable fighter...
Does barbarian rage and inspired rage stack?
No Inspired Rage and Rage do not stack. Nor could a Barbarian or Bloodrager activate any rage powers of their own under the effects of Inspired Rage song. This is one of the reasons a Skald is a Class that must be built around instead of the opposite with Bards. This is also another reason I suggested sticking as many summon monster creatures as possible so the Rage song can have more impact instead of being on 2 PCs as casters tend to not want their spells cut off.
Second- Bardic Performance verses a Domain power. There are very very few domain powers that can beat the power of Inspire Courage. Not to mention you will end up with a LOT more uses a day of Inspire than most domain powers. The only domain powers off the top of my head that compete are: The Animal Companion tends to be the only real competitor and you can still take it to combo with Performance. Most veteran players will tell you that Evangelist is a strict upgrade from Vanilla. When you don't need to prepare many buff spells it really opens up your cleric's spell list to do other things with.
Ok so I went ahead on my idea of a cleric and came up with 2 variants, one a hangover variant and another a summoner cleric.
Idea 1)
Cleric of Iomedae:
Sacred Summons, Summon Good Monster, max wis for casting and dump of cha and str stats. Heroism domain for that sweet sweet heroism.
Not sure how to build this, and the core concept will only come into play after 5th level.
Idea 2)
Cleric of Nethys:
Variant channeler - magic, versatile channeler, improved channel. Will max wis and cha and dump str and dex.
This will be good from level 1 and onwards, really good against casters though casters will probably be more than 30 feet away for channel to hit so will need to move around battlefield....
Not really sure about this second idea.
I will agree with Mort that Ra is the best Rulership God for Hangover Build.
If you go with build 1 I am still recommending Evangelist Due to the Ability to use Both Heroism (like you want) AND performance all in the same round levels 8+. Creature comes into play is double buffed and then gets to go...that is some really good Action economy.
The shaman Idea was pretty good....So is a witch to fill the Arcane gap. Hexes are a Unlimited resource. I know some written APs a Slumber hex can be effective 75% of the time. It also takes burden off preparing the perfect spell list for the day and also allows you to grab up a few extra utility spells you may not have had.
Race wise if your playing a Cleric or a Shaman I really like Grippli. (get your laughter out about the frog people) but here is why I love them:
+2 Dex and Wisdom; -2 str
DARK VISION
AGILE TONGUE- 10ft reach to deliver touch attacks with. Great flavor and usage especially with:
CLIMB SPEED Cleric Fall......HARD...and not in the fall from grace. Climb checks come up and if there are more than 1 (usually are) Clerics tend to just fail at it. This can also help you stay out of reach. If a ceiling is 10-15ft high you can safely be out of reach of most melee guys and deliver heals via agile tongue. Or deliver a Net to entangle foes.
NET PROFICIENCY Nets are cheap and Entangle is a brutal condition. Later make it a +1 Ghost touch net and pretty much Auto Win against most Incorporeal creatures. They are also ranged touch attacks to use.
STEALTH- Small size + Camouflage= +8 under right conditions but +4 is still nothing to sneeze at.
I'm going to assume the Skald intends to be in the front line. If that isn't the case, say so.
Arcanist (Occultist) can fill arcane spell caster and summons, but it means that you will want a good Charisma on them. This character can provide the battlefield control. The problem is it doesn't have the staying power of a Wizard or Sorcerer -- too few spells per day and some of those get swallowed up in order to refill your pool.
Druid can be alright, but I personally prefer Cleric. You really need someone in the group that can do condition removal and the Skald (assuming they kept Spell Kenning) will not be able to do that until 5th level. Even then it would be extremely limited. Going archer cleric would help complete the party.
One alternative for condition removal is looking at a Hedge Witch with the Healing patron. You need that patron in order to add things like Lesser Restoration to the spell list. The problem with this is both of the back characters would be relatively squishy -- neither of them could act as backup melee if required. Hopefully that would not be required since your Arcanist would be able to summon in creatures to fight.
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Heh, I'll disagree with you for grippli shamans. The human FCB is too good (though its a controversial issue). Steal from the clerics spell list ftw!
Power Wise I will agree But sometimes you get tired of Playing as a human. And I have a pretty laid back GM who will has let me use the Human FCB for what ever race I'm playing. But even without FCB that flavor wise a Grippli is a lot of fun especially when you play up the frog aspect.
I had a ton of fun on my Grippli Shaman for sure. Was fun feeding the group flys and other insects baked into pies and stewed. Most ended up having to buy rations for the nights my shaman cooked dinner.
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so evangelist Archer cleric....
can a witch be a good summoner?
They have Summon monster on their list and the ability to take a lot of the same feats as other summon casters. They do not get the ability to summon creatures for Minutes/Level like a Summoner or Occultist Arcanist. (at least that I know of.) The ability to summon for Minutes per level really makes a summon based character stand out the most getting more bang for each casting or resource used to bring forth the summon. But a witch does have a unlimited hexes which means when not summoning they have other options.
But Witch's can be effective at summoning. Especially if you take Hexes that can improve the target like fortune...Fortune hex on summons is pretty nice for having them hit more often.
can a witch be a good summoner?
I don't know of any way to do standard action summoning with a Witch, but I may have missed something. They do get Summon Monster I on their spell list and I think there are some archetypes that can modify that.
If you don't mind the full round casting, you could probably make it work. It would make some of the more beneficial hexes more useful since you could use them on the summoned creatures.
If your looking for healing I would recommend life oracle. Oracle's are just so less Mad than Clerics that I find them much easier to build.
Power Wise I will agree But sometimes you get tired of Playing as a human.
Those who have to play RAW can still take the human FCB while being half-human.
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Those who have to play RAW can still take the human FCB while being half-human.
Power Wise I will agree But sometimes you get tired of Playing as a human.
That is true. But your still half Human and part of the Core 5 races Which I can no longer count how many times I've played the Core 5 over and over and over and over....same with the people I play. Most of us get tired of RAW Core Options.
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If you want to make a good Summoner i suggest you take a look over the Void Domain "It cames from beyond"
You must choose a separatist in order to do so but the reward is great. With that and the standard feats (including cleric summon feats, which are pretty good) you have a solid summoner.
After bringing some buddy’s to join the party just buff them all.
And for the spell limit, take a look over Heldrich Heritage (arcane) It gives you the option to cast the entire list (once a day, one spell but still awesome) There’s a guide about heldrich heritage explaining that.
If you dont want to go with a cleric summoner, Sorcerer makes fantastic summoners at higuer levels (again you have the arcane bloodline to solve the spell problem, and you can go crossbloded to gain the bonnus on summons)
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Heh, you make me itchy to try the following:
1) Catfolk swashbuckler
2) Varana Eldritch knight using sohei and empyreal sorcerer
3) Nagaji bard
I think the best match would be wizard + evangelist archer cleric.
Wizards can take acadamae graduate feat to summon as a standard action, then make a fort save or become fatigued. Clerics have sacred summon. LG alignment has a fair decent number of stuffs to summon.
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Heh, you make me itchy to try the following:
1) Catfolk swashbuckler
2) Varana Eldritch knight using sohei and empyreal sorcerer
3) Nagaji bardI think the best match would be wizard + evangelist archer cleric.
Wizards can take acadamae graduate feat to summon as a standard action, then make a fort save or become fatigued. Clerics have sacred summon. LG alignment has a fair decent number of stuffs to summon.
That is a good idea.
Conjuration Wizard - Academae Graduate and Evangelist Cleric (of Iomedae) with....heroism domain or something else? Heroism has same bonus (morale) as inspire so what would be a good domain to take?
A 1st level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard’s performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls.
This spell imbues a single creature with great bravery and morale in battle. The target gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks.
They can work together. The Highest Bonus is used. But Heroism is still going to give its full effect. Once Inspire's Bonus to Charm and Fear effects goes to a +3 you will use the +3 on those rolls and heroism's +2 on all other saves.
If you are playing 2 characters, I strongly advise against 2 9-level casters and especially 2 casters focusing on summoning. 9 level casters and caster that summon both tend to take a disproportionate time at the table, those that do both compound that even more. Playing two of them at once means in a few levels your are probably going to be taking up the vast majority of combat time unless you are incredibly organized. This is pretty unfair to the rest of the group.
If it was me, I would probably make a battle oracle or war priest that mostly used spells for emergency condition removal and general problem solving, with a little self buffing. Mostly they would be melee striker, but have some things ready for when things go south. While the battle oracle is a 9-level caster, being spontaneous instead of prepared and not focusing on spells in combat would make them act, as far as table time goes, more like a 6-level caster.
For the other character it seems that the controller role is needed, and definitely the most efficient way of doing that is a 9-level prepared arcane caster. Wizard, Arcanist or Witch are all good choices. I would probably go with the Witch, since some of the hexes provide good renewable debuffs, which is enough of a control for simple encounters, and you still have plenty of big guns for when things get more serious. Any of those three would work though, and it is hard to do them wrong since you have a ton of power and versatility to work with.
problem is the other guy is playing 2 chars as well and have chosen Cavalier and Skald, both melee focused.
I am trying to make characters that will complement those and shore up weak points.
I suspected that.
Regardless, my point stand. Skald does quite a bit of support typically, so that role should be covered. Having to other melee focused characters (oracle and cavalier) make the Skalds support powers even greater, and only leaves the need for a controller that focuses on spells.
My guess is that if you end up using 80% or so of the combat time for your two characters, the 'weak point' will be that your friend will get bored and quit the game.
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problem is the other guy is playing 2 chars as well and have chosen Cavalier and Skald, both melee focused.
I am trying to make characters that will complement those and shore up weak points.
If it is a game with 2 players and DM taking longer turns is not a big deal at all. And if you are using the Same summon monster lists on both characters that alone will save you time. I recommend just printing your summons out and just having them flash card ready to go.
When your friend is taking his turn be doing your attack calculations and such on a piece of paper and have your turns planned out when your turn comes around. This will help save time as well.
If it is a game with 2 players and DM taking longer turns is not a big deal at all. And if you are using the Same summon monster lists on both characters that alone will save you time. I recommend just printing your summons out and just having them flash card ready to go.
When your friend is taking his turn be doing your attack calculations and such on a piece of paper and have your turns planned out when your turn comes around. This will help save time as well.
I disagree with it not being a big deal. It is, I think a bigger deal with 2 players than with 4, since with 4 at least you will have company in getting the shorter turns.
It is possible to mitigate the problem by being highly organized, but I have seen that a whole lot more in theory than in practice.
In any event, it seems to me that one summon monster character would be enough to balance out the party, and a couple of them by about 7th level or so could end up making the other player feel entirely superfluous.
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If it is a game with 2 players and DM taking longer turns is not a big deal at all. And if you are using the Same summon monster lists on both characters that alone will save you time. I recommend just printing your summons out and just having them flash card ready to go.
When your friend is taking his turn be doing your attack calculations and such on a piece of paper and have your turns planned out when your turn comes around. This will help save time as well.
I disagree with it not being a big deal. It is, I think a bigger deal with 2 players than with 4, since with 4 at least you will have company in getting the shorter turns.
It is possible to mitigate the problem by being highly organized, but I have seen that a whole lot more in theory than in practice.
In any event, it seems to me that one summon monster character would be enough to balance out the party, and a couple of them by about 7th level or so could end up making the other player feel entirely superfluous.
Your entitled to your opinion.
I will continue to disagree with my opinion.
Many players shy away from book work and want to keep turns short. Some out of pure laziness and some out of some notion that it is proper play to keep turns short.
Considering it is a Home game and not PFS turn length is not going to be as big an issue cause your not playing with 4-6 players all wanting to be in the main spotlight. (while still talking ooc and getting others distracted and off topic). This can be a very good learning experience for the Skald/Cav player that next time around he will want to take a full caster as one of his 2. That way each player ends up with a full caster.
I don't mind waiting longer for a Player who actually does good plays and is helping the group succeed. But some people have 0 patience. But Screw those people!
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Cleric archer you'll probably not want to worship Iomedae, as you're missing out on free longbow proficiency(go worship Erastil).
Shooty McShootsFace
Half orc cleric(evangelist) of Erastil
Good domain
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Trade out orc ferocity for sacred tattop.
Traits: Reactionary, Fates favored
Feats:
Lv 1:Point blank shot
Lv 3:Precise shot
Lv 5: Rapid shot
Lv 7: Deadly aim
Lv 9: Sacred Summons
Lv 11: Clustered shot
Skills:
Perception, Knowledge Religion
Efly McSmartypants
Elven wizard - opposition schools up to you, just make sure it ain't conjuration.
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10
Traits:
Reactionary, Forlorn
Feats:
Lv 1: Scribe scroll, Acadamae graduate
Lv 3: Spell focus conjuration
Lv 5: Augmented Summoning, Craft wondrous item
Lv 7: Great Fortitude
Lv 9: Improved Great Fortitude
Lv 10: Spell penetration
Lv 11: Greater Spell Penetration
There's an option for cleric to take feather domain, but if you do so, drop con to 13 and raise int to 12 to have skill points for handle animal. Lv 5 feat becomes boon companion, other feats are pushed back. Or just play as human instead of half orc.
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Erastil you can still sacred summon archons. Erastil is a LG god, all you need to be is a LG cleric. If you want to worship Iomedae for heroism domain, then be prepared to spend a feat on longbow proficiency, or start as a half elf(ancestral arms alternate racial trait)/elf. Either way, you lose the +2 to all saves from the sacred tattoo + fates favored combination.
I just suggested ways to best abuse acadamae graduate. There is more then one way to play. Metamagics - which ones are you looking at? My opinion is that they're generally better on metamagic rods.
I gave you elf, because some GMs (and I understand where they're coming from) think non core stuff is cheese, so don't assume non core races will always be available. Elves have +2 to spell penetration, which is useful for wizards. Tieflings do not get that +2 to spell penetration.
The builds I gave above are on a 20 point buy, racial modifiers included, and are, barring some minor tweaks like spell and equipment selection, ready to play. They're decently optimised, but not to the extent that a GM would find them unfun to deal with(I hope). I would not assist to build a character that would break a game.