I see AC as a car and HP as a seatbelt. For anything that can be considered minutiae like mooks and such, a strong enough frame will eat the brunt of the punishment for you, but when you get hit by something substantial, if you ain't got that seatbelt, well you're done.
More on topic... I have never heard of any build like this working in practice. By the time you reach the BBEG, you'll be at death's door or have exhausted innumerable healing resources from every single weak enemy that hit you. Meanwhile the invulnerable rager in medium armor or Fighty McFighterson in full plate with middling dex are just fine and still put out good damage.
I dunno. Just doesn't seem worth the risk. I mean, you're an unchained monk. Just flying kick and get more full round attacks than anyone else. That should more than keep your overall contribution competitive.
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I completely disagree. HP is forever because it stands by you in nearly every scenario. Its your best friend. AC is the acquaintance who flakes out when he sees a maximized fireball.Something important to consider in AC vs. Durability
AC is forever, hit points are not. You will have to regain health somehow. At 12th level I guess a party member can fix you up pretty easily but if you get attacked and lose a lot of health, there isn't much you can do by yourself. There is the ki power wholeness of body, but still. It helps out the medic if you don't have to keep getting patched up.
The maximized fireball is what the monk has evasion for. HP need not apply.
@Crow
I see what you mean by your party covering your weakness, but at that point, wouldn't it make more sense to do less damage while taking less damage and have your party make up for that? If rather do 5 less points than eat all the full rounds.
As for the merit of AC, I think it's needed, like most defenses. If anything to prevent most iteratives from enemies, particularly mooks.
One of the nice things about the Monk is that it has the ability to pick up strong AC and then scale that AC in a way that many characters completely lack, without having to trade-off major offense. It's certainly not necessary to stack AC on a Monk, but it's a nice option to have when AC tends to have increasing per-point returns.
Did anyone run the DPR numbers for this?
Outliers such as giants(hit above their CR) should also be considered since they are common monsters.
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Did anyone run the DPR numbers for this?
Outliers such as giants(hit above their CR) should also be considered since they are common monsters.
I ran offensive DPR with all cylinders firing vs. CR 10, 12, and 14 defaults, and came to the firm conclusion that the amount of offense gained over the version who sells down their AoMF to a +2 isn't worth the loss of defense.
It's not bad DPR at all, the build's offense seems solid. There's just absolutely no point in neglecting AC to this extent. When it can be increase quite cheaply.
Or did you mean monster's DPR vs.them? Nobody did that, but you can actually just use the averages directly for generic monsters (since the odds of missing and critting for x2 can be assumed to cancel).
That's 45 for CR 10, 55 for CR 12, 65 for CR 14. At least in theory.
For giants, a Fire Giant is CR 10 and does 93.57 when Power Attacking. A Taiga Giant (at CR 12) will do a bit worse, as their attack routine is slightly lower (they have defensive advantages and x3 crits, though), and an Ocean Giant at Cr 14 does 138.87 or so (again, when Power Attacking).
So that winds up looking pretty ugly.
Did anyone run the DPR numbers for this?
Outliers such as giants(hit above their CR) should also be considered since they are common monsters.I ran offensive DPR with all cylinders firing vs. CR 10, 12, and 14 defaults, and came to the firm conclusion that the amount of offense gained over the version who sells down their AoMF to a +2 isn't worth the loss of defense.
It's not bad DPR at all, the build's offense seems solid. There's just absolutely no point in neglecting AC to this extent. When it can be increase quite cheaply.
Or did you mean monster's DPR vs.them? Nobody did that, but you can actually just use the averages directly for generic monsters (since the odds of missing and critting for x2 can be assumed to cancel).
That's 45 for CR 10, 55 for CR 12, 65 for CR 14. At least in theory.
For giants, a Fire Giant is CR 10 and does 93.57 when Power Attacking. A Taiga Giant (at CR 12) will do a bit worse, as their attack routine is slightly lower (they have defensive advantages and x3 crits, though), and an Ocean Giant at Cr 14 does 138.87 or so (again, when Power Attacking).
So that winds up looking pretty ugly.
I figured that monk would be in trouble with that AC. He is basically getting autohit at that point, and things like giants and elementals are doing to give him a hard time.
Well i just played an UC monk with an AC of 14 (12 after charging with Dragon Style) and can say, if there´s something standing after a flurry, it will hit you. And even though my monk has unusally high hp, she nearly died several times and was taken out of fights in one round.
I´ll see today how that AC 21 (10 + 2 DEX + 1 dodge + 1 monk + 3 WIS + 4 mage armor) from level 4 on changes things.
Is there something out there to give an idea on what AC is suggested per level? I'm curious what the actual consensus is on that.
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Is there something out there to give an idea on what AC is suggested per level? I'm curious what the actual consensus is on that.
The general consensus seems to be to get 15+level for decent AC and 20+level for a solid one, though at very high levels you'd need better, and it's only a ballpark.
Frankly - monks are one of the few classes which can get a bit over 20+level without really trying, and well over 20+level with a Dex build, especially at higher levels.
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Well i just played an UC monk with an AC of 14 (12 after charging with Dragon Style) and can say, if there´s something standing after a flurry, it will hit you. And even though my monk has unusally high hp, she nearly died several times and was taken out of fights in one round.
I´ll see today how that AC 21 (10 + 2 DEX + 1 dodge + 1 monk + 3 WIS + 4 mage armor) from level 4 on changes things.
You are missing +2 from barkskin.
Is there something out there to give an idea on what AC is suggested per level? I'm curious what the actual consensus is on that.
Depends on the class and level tier.
At level 12, a well built monk should sit no lower than 33.
But at like level 8, it's closer to 27 which isn't bad but it's not really proportional in any way.
You can find some good 12 level builds in my guide.
Oh my numbers don't count mage armour btw
I played in a Kingmaker Campaign where a friend made a barbarian and decided that armor was for wimps since he "would be hit anyway." In almost every combat, he was full attacked by some beasty, took all of the hits and would end up at a sliver of health. So a survivability of 2 rounds. And that's on a barbarian with 18 Con, d12 hit dice and rage.
Also we started burning through cure wands at an alarming rate.
For this build you need to account for the increased amount of money spent on healing you. Why pay for 2+ cure wands per level when you can instead just spend that money on defensive items?