Need help with my first rogue(unchained)


Advice


So were about to start a new game were running kingmaker campaign. I want to make my first unchained rogue. I want be a knife master but use a hand crossbow for a ranged attack besides throwing one of my daggers can this be viable? I'm going human with a 20 pt build what would be good feats to take besides twf line.thanks for any advice or help you can give would be awesome


Kingmaker practically requires a good charisma. Unchained Rogue works best off of a high dexterity. If you're going to be a knife master, don't use the hand crossbow and stick to the melee and throwing knives. Actually, hand crossbows are pretty bad for anybody who isn't a Bolt Ace gunslinger.

As a Rogue, you'll want TWF, Weapon Focus (Daggers), a race with a dexterity boost (or a Human), and the Twist Away feat. Past that, consider Steadfast Personality or Iron Will to patch up your saves. If you really want to throw daggers, Point-Blank Shot and Rapid Shot will help. Leadership is also useful, but make sure it's allowed in your campaign.

Liberty's Edge

Are you sure you want to play a Rogue? Unchained isn't bad, but it's still in a very specific niche mechanically. So...what do you want this character to achieve?


Unchained Rogue is still very multiclass friendly, so if your objective is to maximize fighting-power then a martial class dip can help quite a bit. 3 levels of Weaponmaster Fighter for 2 bonus feats and the ability to use Gloves of Dueling to increase Weapon Training to a +3 is one example.

Also, if you're down with it as a character concept, worshipping Pharasma and using her Deific Obedience feat will grant +2 to all attack rolls with daggers.


The Kingmaker campaign involves many short adventuring days but don't be fooled - there's plenty of more prolonged encounters and dungeon crawls. There's plenty of downtime and typically you'd want to do something like crafting to pass it, but without some specialized feats you can't make anything magical (which is 95% of crafting, the other 5% being alchemy) and unless you devote your entire build to Poison it's not gonna work. Unsurprisingly Kingmaker has a lot of wild animals which typically have high Fort saves.

Ask your DM if they'll be using Ultimate Campaign instead of the section on kingdom-building in Kingmaker - it is vastly superior from a balance perspective and goes more in-depth. One way to make things interesting for you is to have you work as a spy "diplomat" during the downtime, negotiating with nearby nations such as Mivon or Pitax to get additional supplies through backroom deals and social events. There are numerous systems in Ultimate Campaign that could aid in this regard, such as the Reputation and Fame section, the Contacts system, and the Diplomatic Edicts system.

Depending on your group composition you'll want to have a decent Charisma or Intelligence score. Charisma is good for the more socially-inclined character and would work for the kingdom's ruler or their diplomat. Intelligence gives you more skill points to work with which can be especially helpful if your group has a lot of classes that don't get many (the classic Fighter-Cleric-Wizard-Rogue for instance has 3 classes that only get 2+Int, and although the Wizard is Int-based they don't get many class skills outside of the Intelligence ones). Alternatively you could go for a decent Wisdom score which would improve your Will save and your scouting abilities but it improves the least skills of all the mental stats (although Perception is easily the most used).

As far as the build, TWF isn't fantastic for rogues unless you've got someone buffing attack bonuses and you can reliably set up Sneak Attack. As long as those two areas are covered you should be fine on damage - getting Dex to damage helps a lot. You'll probably be taking a few hits in combat, so investing in HP is definitely worth it in the long run. Grab Iron Will when you can, you're going to need it eventually. Take Piranha Strike at some point too and use it when you need to move or if your teammates are buffing and debuffing well enough that you can risk the attack roll penalty. I second BadBird's suggestion of the Deific Obedience for Pharasma, the feat's text can be located here, but you won't find them on the d20pfsrd - the benefits are tied to Golarion-specific deities so they aren't on that site.


Another very fun multiclass option is just to take 1 level of Urban Barbarian and some Extra Rage. Between having +4DEX Rage and the ability to use the Furious weapon property, it's a big combat boost. Plus, the dex-based Rogue going into a dex-frenzy is really thematically cool.

My build investigations with Rogue are mostly pre-unchained and have tended to end up as strength-based Rogue-Warriors, which is actually pretty great but somewhat of a different concept. Still, if you're willing to entertain a strength-based Rogue and at least 2 multiclass levels, there's some crazy stuff you can do.


useful feats for combat:

opening volley
canny tumble
circling mongoose

Combine with daredevil softpaws for up to a +8 on your first melee attack when engaging an opponent (and vs flatfooted ac). Circling mongoose for finishing them off/positioning.

Very good with the underhanded and minor magic (acid splash) rogue talents. You'll need to pick up PBS and/or Precise shot unless you pick up some ranged touch attacks (alchemists fire, vials of acid, or alchemist's bombs [from the underground chemist archetype] work as well).

Unfortunately very feat intensive, and you'll want TWF as well so it works best with splashes of classes like fighter and/or monk for the bonus feats.

Specifically regarding kingmaker, listen to other people in the thread---I'm not a fan of the kingdom building rules.


Press to the Wall is also a good feat for getting sneak attack with rogues but you'll have a rough time fitting it in if you're going the Two Weapon Fighting route.


So drop crossbow I like the underground chemist idea with maybe a dip in weapon master fighter for 5 lvls for extra feats that should help with getting twf right? And if I didn't take twf that's leaves me using a rapier or elven curve blade right? I'm preferably trying to stay from thw if I can and still do decent amount if damage I've also thought of taking trapsmith and maybe pairing it with a dip ranger trapper instead of knifemaster.I've also like the idea of like an awesome spy I telligence gatherer too Ugh!! So many ideas I'm just trying to make something more unique that we don't always see in our groups archer fighter wizard or sorc full ranger or slayer.


swifthunter420 wrote:
So drop crossbow I like the underground chemist idea with maybe a dip in weapon master fighter for 5 lvls for extra feats that should help with getting twf right? And if I didn't take twf that's leaves me using a rapier or elven curve blade right? I'm preferably trying to stay from thw if I can and still do decent amount if damage I've also thought of taking trapsmith and maybe pairing it with a dip ranger trapper instead of knifemaster. I'm just trying to make something more unique that we don't always see in our groups archer fighter wizard or sorc full ranger or slayer.

I wouldn't bother going more than 3 levels in Weaponmaster for the Weapon Training and Gloves of Dueling, or 4 maximum if you want another bonus feat.

As far as the general character goes, what's crucial to what you want to do? Dexterity instead of strength? Two weapons? Or just Rogue/Ninja kinds of tricks and abilities? There are a lot of ways to create a 'shadow warrior' kind of build. Even something like a multiclass Sacred Fist and Ninja can be pretty great and really different.


I want him/her to use daggers and be good at gathering information while manageing to still get my sneak attacks when needed if possible maybe have potential to throw my daggers when nesscary these are my top priirites I figured I wouldn't be able to fit them all in but I wanted try my best

Liberty's Edge

BadBird wrote:
I wouldn't bother going more than 3 levels in Weaponmaster for the Weapon Training and Gloves of Dueling, or 4 maximum if you want another bonus feat.

4 can also get you one instance of Advanced Weapon Training as a Feat. Versatile Training really helps make you even more of a skill monkey, and Focused Weapon or Weapon Sacrifice would be potentially very nice, too.

If dipping, I'd also recommend the Accomplished Sneak Attacker Feat to keep your Sneak Attack damage up to snuff.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you are using traits, take Clever Wordplay (Pathfinder Society Primer) and apply it to Diplomacy. That will allow you to use Int for Gather Information checks. This allows you to have a lower Charisma than otherwise. I would not recommend completely dumping Charisma.

Now build with high Dex and Int. The Int gets you skills, the Dex helps with the thrown and melee with daggers. You can't take Weapon Focus at level 1, so instead look at Quick Draw. It usually isn't a very good feat, but your character is going to want to be able to throw daggers at full speed so it is worth it.

This also allows you to fill one of multiple positions once you get to the kingdom building phase: Grand Diplomat (off Int), Magister (not recommended but legal, off Int), Marshall (off Dex), Royal Enforcer (off Dex), Spymaster (off Int or Dex), or Treasurer (off Int). I'm using the names from Ultimate Campaign, I believe they were slightly different in the original Kingmaker books.

Have you decided what race you are going to be? Low-light vision or dark vision are very nice for a rogue -- it is tough to sneak up on anything with a torch in hand!

Kingmaker has been a very different and fun adventure path. I hope you enjoy it!


I'm not sure I was going human but no low light does pur a damper on that I thought of elf but the con hit hurts are there any races that give dex int and dark or low light too?


Actually, one really interesting option would be to take a few levels of Spell Sage Wizard or Strength Patron Witch; armor isn't an issue with Arcane Armor Training. With 4 levels (and a couple feats if using Spell Sage), you could get the spell Divine Favor at caster level 6 (using Magical Knack or some other trick to raise caster level by 2) combined with the Fate's Favored trait to get a +3 bonus to attack and damage. If your GM or party doesn't usually make casting one buff before combat begins difficult, then Divine Favor is actually a major boost to combat ability.

Besides the combat boost, there are a ton of interesting things you can do with even just a couple levels of Wizard or Witch class features and spells, like the Witch's hexes for communicating with animals and understanding any language, or the Wizard's access to magical invisibility and illusion.


My Self wrote:
As a Rogue, you'll want TWF, Weapon Focus (Daggers), a race with a dexterity boost (or a Human), and the Twist Away feat. Past that, consider Steadfast Personality or Iron Will to patch up your saves. If you really want to throw daggers, Point-Blank Shot and Rapid Shot will help. Leadership is also useful, but make sure it's allowed in your campaign.

For throwing daggers, I'd get Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. If you already have Two-Weapon Fighting, you can use it to throw two knives a round, so you don't need Rapid Shot. Note that if you plan to throw daggers, you will want Quick Draw or at least spring-loaded wrist sheaths.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Half-Orc gives dark vision and +2 to one attribute of your choice.

Half-Elf gives low-light vision and +2 to one attribute of your choice and can multiclass in two different classes while still getting FCB. The skill focus is also nice.

Dwarf gives dark vision, +2 Con and stonecunning, but the Charisma penalty will hurt for this AP.

If the GM will allow them, Ratfolk give +2 Int, +2 Dex, Darkvision. The Strength penalty can be worked around.

Personally I would go either Half-Orc, Elf or Half-Elf. The area you are in is very human-centric so being non-human would hurt if going for the Grand Diplomat or Ruler. It shouldn't pose a problem if you are looking at Spymaster, Treasurer, or one of the others.


Out of curiosity, what sources are you able to use? Because there's a lot of newer things out there that are pretty great.

Another interesting multiclass possibility is to take 4 levels of Monk for the ki pool, which would then allow you to use the Shadow Clone and Vanishing Trick Ninja Talents on an Unchained Rogue. There are some pretty shiny knife-fighting possibilities for wielding Butterfly Swords, especially if you can use the style feats from the Weapon Master's Handbook.

Sczarni

swifthunter420 wrote:
I'm not sure I was going human but no low light does pur a damper on that I thought of elf but the con hit hurts are there any races that give dex int and dark or low light too?

If your GM allows it, Tieflings are perfect for what you want.

+2 DEX & INT, Darkvision, they can cast Darkness as an SLA and they have an option for a prehensile tail that will allow you to retrieve smal objects as a swift action. The take a -2 CHA hit, but there are traits to get you around that, such as Clever Wordplay as mentioned above or Student of Philosophy.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I had skipped mention of Tiefling because this is Kingmaker. Brevoy is humancentric, and a Tiefling as a member of a kingdom's court could be a diplomatic incident in itself.


Actually one of the most unique multiclass Unchained Rogues would be a Rogue that Wild Shapes into a humanoid air elemental that looks like himself and that can speak and wield weapons. 4 levels of Druid and the Shaping Focus feat means being able to spend all day as a medium-sized air elemental to get +4DEX and "fly 60 feet (perfect)". Simply dropping a weapon while shifting means it doesn't merge with the new body and can be wielded. An air elemental form is perfect for stealth and dex-based flanking combat, as well as setting such a character on a whole other level than most Rogues in the kingdom.


I like the idea of half orc or elf spymaster and all sources are open 3rd party included. Is it worth it to take quick draw and spring loaded wrist sheaths? I also like the idea of having magic but I'm trying stay away from magic with character I like the sound of shadow clone and vanishing trick though I prefer ki pools over magic really.


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If you like the idea of a Half-Elf spymaster with daggers and ki powers, here's a multiclass build that allows an Unchained Monk/Rogue to use flurry of blows with daggers (melee and thrown), to use unarmored Monk AC bonus that gets better than light armor, to use wisdom instead of charisma for all Intimidate, Bluff and Diplomacy checks, and to use a Ki Pool for supernatural illusions. Unchained Monk Flurry of Blows has two big advantages over TWF - you don't pay any attack penalty for it, and you actually only need one weapon to attack. So you can still wield two daggers - but functionally your main-hand holds your best melee dagger, while your offhand throws your ranged daggers. Oh, and you learn to use Mantis Style Stunning Fist attacks with a dagger, because that's just freaking badass.

It needs one level of Cleric of Pharasma to work - not because of any spells, but because it grants the tools to flurry with a dagger and to replace charisma with wisdom for social skills. You could just ignore the spellcasting if you want, though it does give you a decent combat buff even with 1 level if you choose to use it.

Pharasmin Spymaster-Sage
While lesser spies might gamble on personality to achieve their ends, this spymaster uses the blessing of the Lady of Graves to ferret out information and manipulate marks through intuition and sheer force of will.

Unchained Rogue (Scout Archetype) 4/ Unchained Monk 4/ Crusader Cleric of Pharasma 1
Half-Elf: 10STR, 16/18DEX, 12CON, 10INT, 16WIS, 8CHA
Traits: Fate's Favored, Honored Fist of the Society
(Fate's Favored improves the bonus from Divine Favor by +1, and if you get a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier it improves the AC bonus by +1. Honored Fist is +1 Ki)
Favored Class Bonuses from Half-Elf:
Rogue: Information Gathering checks
Monk: HP

1UR. +Rogue: Weapon Finesse / Toughness / Half-Elf: Skill Focus: Diplomacy
(For first level, use a regular single dagger)

2UM. *Unchained Flurry of Blows* / *AC Bonus* / +Monk: Stunning Fist / +Monk: Dodge
(Use a single dagger for standard or ranged attack, but use flurry of blows unarmed strikes for full attacks)

3UR. Mantis Style

4UR. *Finesse Training: Dagger* / *Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Quick Draw*

5CC. *Domain: Conversion Inquisition* / +Crusader: Weapon Focus: Dagger / Crusader's Flurry: Dagger
(You can now use flurry of blows with a dagger for all attacks, including throwing flurry)
(You now use wisdom for Intimidate, Bluff and Diplomacy)
(You can cast Divine Favor for +2 to attack and damage (due to fate's favored), and use Pearls of Power for more uses/day)

6UM. +Monk: Combat Reflexes

7UM. *Ki Pool* / *Fast Movement* / Cornugon Stun
(You may now use your Mantis Style Stunning Fist through a dagger-strike with Crusader's Flurry: Dagger + Cornugon Stun)

8UR. *Debilitating Injury* / *Scout's Charge (Charging causes Sneak Attack)* / *Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick*

9UM. *Monk AC bonus +1* / *Ki Power: Qinggong: Deny Death* / Extra Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick: Shadow Clone

With the Honored Fist of the Society trait, a +4WIS headband and 4 levels of Monk, your ki pool will have 8 uses/day for Shadow Clone and Vanishing Trick. A Ki Mat is kind of pricey, but it can regain ki during the day by meditating for an hour/point.

By level 9 you can make 6 +2DC Mantis Stunning Fist attacks per day through a dagger (and the stunned condition opens up Sneak Attacks).

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