If you used Greater Steal to swipe the spell component pouch of a spellcaster (or the holy symbol of a cleric, or the alchemist's kit of an alchemist, or something similar), and the spellcaster attempted to cast a spell that was dependent on the stolen item, would they lose that action? Or would they, upon realizing the item was missing, simply be able to use their action for something else?
This has been coming up quite a bit lately on account of a rogue PC I've been gaming with.
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If you used Greater Steal to swipe the spell component pouch of a spellcaster (or the holy symbol of a cleric, or the alchemist's kit of an alchemist, or something similar), and the spellcaster attempted to cast a spell that was dependent on the stolen item, would they lose that action? Or would they, upon realizing the item was missing, simply be able to use their action for something else?
This has been coming up quite a bit lately on account of a rogue PC I've been gaming with.
IMO, even though they may not notice when the item is stolen, they would notice when they went to try and use it, and, since it isn't an actual AoO or equivalent, they would be able to decide to do something else, instead, or use the same thing from their backup item, if they have one.
Note that, in this kind of situation, the first few times, the target may not have a backup, but, after a while, this tactic would get noticed, so potential targets would start to carry backups, or make the normal target harder to steal, in some way.
The rules don't really address this as far as I know, so it's a situation where the DM has to use his/her judgement (and thus will vary from table to table). Personally, I would say they lose the action, as they've already committed the effort to supply the components of the spell, but they wouldn't expend the spell they were trying to cast (not that you were asking about that part, but I feel like it's another part of the situation that people could disagree about).
There's no rules text about this I can quote for you, at least that I know of, so if someone else does supply a clear answer to the question from the rules, that'd be news to me.
I don't think the rules explicitly cover this, but this is how I would rule it. I would have them lose the action but not the spell.
Greater Steal specifically states that they don't notice the stolen item is missing until they actively try to make use of it.
Hmm, if I ready a grease or glue seal spell at enemy caster's spellpouch and cast that when he tries to open it. Much better than counterspell.
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So what type of action is it to check one's possessions to make sure they are all there? Because if it's less than a standard action it becomes worth it to spend a free or move action to verify all your needed items are in place if you risk losing your standard action for the round. Especially if someone attempted a combat maneuver against you last round with no discernible effect.
For me, it depends on when you steal it. If you ready the action to steal the component pouch as they attempt to cast a spell, I'd treat that like any other AoO/Ready that invalidates the triggering effect.
If it's done as a part of an ordinary turn, I wouldn't make them lose the turn. They're already out the ability to cast spells (in the case of component pouches, foci, etc.), which seems harsh enough.
Admittedly, I don't know that there's really a direct answer in the rules. But that's probably how I'd roll with it.
Even so, I feel a caster is going to almost instantly realize they're missing their focus/pouch as soon as they even think about starting to cast a spell, not halfway into the attempted casting.
Thinking about it isn't enough. They have to actively use it, or combat has to end, before they notice it is missing.
So what type of action is it to check one's possessions to make sure they are all there? Because if it's less than a standard action it becomes worth it to spend a free or move action to verify all your needed items are in place if you risk losing your standard action for the round. Especially if someone attempted a combat maneuver against you last round with no discernible effect.
I would expect that the intentionally searching for stimulus from perception (a move equivalent) would do it, but I'm not sure what the DC should be.
Thinking about it isn't enough. They have to actively use it, or combat has to end, before they notice it is missing.
I don't think that prohibits any other way of noticing, just explains that you will only automatically notice at that time.
As for losing an action, preparing components to cast a spell is a free action, and I don't see anywhere that specifies it can only be done while you are trying to cast a spell, so there is no reason that you wouldn't prepare before you decided to cast (and it makes some sense that this always happens.) If that is the case, then there is no way to lose a standard action from casting a spell and finding you are missing something.
As a DM i'd let them loose the action, and the spell, once per combat. because they get interrupted in finishing their casting by not being able to do what they thought possible just a minute ago.
Like the trope where someone removed the bullets from a revolver hiddenly, and then the wielder tries to use it, perhaps even exposes himself for a good shot, and *click, click* - nothing happens.
After that the caster will check himself if his holy symbol / component pouch is still there before starting casting. Quick pat on where it should be, like i personally do for my keys when exiting the house.
So it is a once per enemy cool stunt, but not overpowering.
Given that it's a rogue PC too I would be erring on the side of lose action. It's cool to have the more unusual combat maneuvers actually do things occasionally.
I'm surprised by the responses here.
On other threads, I see people almost unanimously saying things like "don't use SOS spells because nobody likes to lose actions", etc. There seems to be a nearly universal GM attitude that robbing actions is BADWRONGFUN.
So I expected an outpouring of "NO! Don't take away the action" responses. I guess you guys fooled me.
I'll jump on board (the other board) by saying this should NOT cause a loss of action. Not because I personally dislike robbing people of actions (I do it all the time as a GM and I don't agree with that apparent GM attitude), but rather because I think it's out of scope for the combat maneuver. What other maneuvers have the ability to deny an action?
I personally don't think a wizard casts a spell by doing all the gestures, then saying all the words, then rooting around in his spell component pouch for all the materials. It's very possible, even likely, that he's reaching for the component even BEFORE he begins the other stuff. Likewise, I think the priest is grasping and beginning to present his holy symbol before he begins casting.
There's no rule for it either way, but the maneuver is disruptive enough by stripping those casters of about 95% of their spells (made up statistic), it doesn't also need to rob them of an action.
I fall on the side of 'no action loss' here, unless it was a readied action to steal it during the act of spellcasting (just like sundering the component pouch, or whatever.) My reasoning: you can't cast a spell without being able to supply the components, therefore you can't take the action in the first place (for a spell that uses them.) Discovering you don't have the components happens as a non-action.
Even so, I feel a caster is going to almost instantly realize they're missing their focus/pouch as soon as they even think about starting to cast a spell, not halfway into the attempted casting.Thinking about it isn't enough. They have to actively use it, or combat has to end, before they notice it is missing.
I think the closest analogy from the rules would be an archer drawing an arrow to make an attack. Drawing the arrow is a free action. Getting spell components out of your pouch, while not explicitly called out, is probably also a free action.
So the archer, pulls out an arrow as a free action. Then takes a standard to attack. Or attempts to pull out the arrow and realizes there are none left, and takes a standard to do something else.
Likewise the caster would reach into his pouch to get the correct material component, free action, then standard to cast a spell. Or reach into his pouch... and realize the pouch is missing. Standard action to do something else.
(BTW, maybe 25-30% of spells require a material component, losing your component pouch can be annoying, but unless you've got a weird spell selection, it is a minor annoyance).