|
Some friends of mine are trying to pressure me into making a PFS Kineticist, so I was looking into it, even though I don't understand Kineticists too well (and yes, I read the JollyJack guide, which told me the optimal builds, but not the how the fundamentally work.)
I think I've got it worked out, and like everyone else, I was thinking of going Jedi-esque. Best way I could figure it, I was going to go Aether Kinetisist Elemental Annihilator. The plan was to get 13 str for power attack, but put the bulk of my points into Dex for weapon finesse, and Con for damage.
But then I ran into this gem:
Elemental Annihilators basically get a modified Kinetic Blade at First level (it counts as Kinetic blade except where it says otherwise, like how it does d8 damage and gets con+1/2 to damage when two-handing it, or how it doesn't cost burn) But Kinetic blade says this:
Kinetic BladeElement(s) universal; Type form infusion; Level 1; Burn 1
Associated Blasts any
Saving Throw noneYou form a weapon using your kinetic abilities. You create a nonreach, light or one-handed weapon in your hand formed of pure energy or elemental matter. (If you're a telekineticist, you instead transfer the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand.) The kinetic blade's shape is purely cosmetic and doesn't affect the damage dice, critical threat range, or critical multiplier of the kinetic blade, nor does it grant the kinetic blade any weapon special features. The object held by a telekineticist for this form infusion doesn't prevent her from using gather power.
(snip)
So, if I read this right, if (as a Telekeneticist) I want to use my blade, I have to have a weapon in my hand. The only one-handed weapon that allows for Weapon finesse AND two hands is the Aldori Dueling sword. Do I have to be proficient in that sword in order to telekenetic blade with it? It says the 'form of the blade is purely cosmetic' but I don't know if that lets me weapon finesse it, as one can only weapon finesse with a dueling sword if they have the exotic weapon proficiency.
I'm very confused.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...who the hell is JollyJack?
Technically there is at least one weapon that allows for WF/2H wielding, the Elven Curved Blade, although I wonder if you'd get reach doing this with an Elven Branch Spear, another WF/2H weapon. From a strict reading, I'd say Branch Spear would give you reach with a telekinetic kinetic blade, although a more direct ruling might be needed on this.
|
|
...who the hell is JollyJack?
Technically there is at least one weapon that allows for WF/2H wielding, the Elven Curved Blade, although I wonder if you'd get reach doing this with an Elven Branch Spear, another WF/2H weapon. From a strict reading, I'd say Branch Spear would give you reach with a telekinetic kinetic blade, although a more direct ruling might be needed on this.
Sorry, JollyJack is someone I've seen on another forum. Got the two of you confused. It's late, I appologize.
Note it says you create a "Non-reach, light or one-handed weapon." That would imply that the kinetic blade doesn't work with the elven branch spear, elven curved blade, whip, or anything like that. Only thing that I can think of that works is the Aldori Dueling sword.
|
|
Sorry, JollyJack is someone I've seen on another forum. Got the two of you confused. It's late, I appologize.
Note it says you create a "Non-reach, light or one-handed weapon." That would imply that the kinetic blade doesn't work with the elven branch spear, elven curved blade, whip, or anything like that. Only thing that I can think of that works is the Aldori Dueling sword.
I was wondering about that. Also if you think something's unclear in my guide, feel free to post in the guide thread so I can clear it up to help make the guide better for everyone.
And that's for the creation rules, telekinetic KB works differently since it requires an object to transfer the force into, making the interaction more complex. Aldori's probably your best bet to avoid any complicated rules situations, although I don't know of any FAQ involving telekinetic KB.
|
|
Sorry, JollyJack is someone I've seen on another forum. Got the two of you confused. It's late, I appologize.
Note it says you create a "Non-reach, light or one-handed weapon." That would imply that the kinetic blade doesn't work with the elven branch spear, elven curved blade, whip, or anything like that. Only thing that I can think of that works is the Aldori Dueling sword.
I was wondering about that. Also if you think something's unclear in my guide, feel free to post in the guide thread so I can clear it up to help make the guide better for everyone.
And that's for the creation rules, telekinetic KB works differently since it requires an object to transfer the force into, making the interaction more complex. Aldori's probably your best bet to avoid any complicated rules situations, although I don't know of any FAQ involving telekinetic KB.
First off, I just want to say that your guide is good, it just wasn't what I was looking for. Your guide is 'what to do with a kineticist' and I was looking for 'how to do an kineticist.' It's just the massive walls of texts related to wild talents and how infusions interact with blasts and . . . it all made me go a bit cross-eyed. It's so unlike what normal Pathfinder is like that I just have a hard time wrapping my head around it.
I feel like I'm not getting my questions across very well. Here they are as sussinctly as possible.
1)When using a Aether Kenetic blade, do I need to be proficient with the aldori Dueling sword to use it as the basis for my Kinetic blade? Do I suffer a -4 to swing it? CAN I even use weapon finesse with it without being proficient?
Some other questions I thought of:
2) Is there any way to increase the basic to-hit and damage of a Kineticist's blasts other than ability score increases?(not just 'extra d6s) Otherwise, I think the Elemental Annihilator will scale VERY poorly, as your fighters get +1/2/3 swords, and your Kinetisist doesn't (and has no way to overcome DR)
3) The Human FCB for Kineticist is to gain 1/6th of a wild talent. The Elemental Annihilator replaces all of their utility wild talents with bonus feats, but says 'they never gain wild talents.' Does this mean Human Elemental Annihilators cannot take the FCB to get a few wild talents on the side?
1. unsure.
2. anything that buffs an attack. bard song, weapon focus, etc
3. Correct. if you dont get wild talents, you cannot get an extra.
TK blasts are hitting people with objects wrapped in your mind stuff. It doesn't specify a minimum size, though, so some allow any speck of dust to be the object, or maximum size, although I'd houserules limited to your basic TK weight... It also doesn't say if your mind stuff is visible or not.
KB for TK doesn't make the purely cosmetic shape that the other energies do, just lets you wield it like melee instead of the normal blast. So, you could ask GM if your mindstuff can be visible and 'saber shaped, concealing that you're just smacking them with a rolled up newspaper or granola crumbles. Or use any sword or weapon that you wield as your blast, not as whatever it is.
For a light saber look naturally, air-electric, or maybe a 3p light element, could work better.
Doesn't EA gives up up all the utility wild talents, including even the Basic? Doesn't seem very Jedi like.
So, if I read this right, if (as a Telekeneticist) I want to use my blade, I have to have a weapon in my hand...
I don't think you read that right, the ability says "If you're a telekineticist, you instead transfer the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand", so you don't have to be holding a weapon at all. It could be like a twig, or a leaf, or a very small rock. Because of that i'd say that the weapons stats and your proficiency with it don't affect Kinetic Blade whatsoever, you just need to be able to hold the object in one hand.
I don't think you read that right, the ability says "If you're a telekineticist, you instead transfer the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand", so you don't have to be holding a weapon at all. It could be like a twig, or a leaf, or a very small rock. Because of that i'd say that the weapons stats and your proficiency with it don't affect Kinetic Blade whatsoever, you just need to be able to hold the object in one hand.
And it would also be a good idea to select an object that you don't care too much about, because the force of your TK blasts does equal damage to whatever you're channeling it through. 10 damage with kinetic blade to an enemy, 10 damage with kinetic blade to the object you hit them with.
1)When using a Aether Kenetic blade, do I need to be proficient with the aldori Dueling sword to use it as the basis for my Kinetic blade? Do I suffer a -4 to swing it? CAN I even use weapon finesse with it without being proficient?
Answer) You are not attacking with the weapon, you are attacking with the blast. You could swing a wooden twig and achieve the same effect, taking no penalties. Also, whatever you use also takes the blasts damage, so don't use anything expensive.
Some other questions I thought of:
2) Is there any way to increase the basic to-hit and damage of a Kineticist's blasts other than ability score increases?(not just 'extra d6s) Otherwise, I think the Elemental Annihilator will scale VERY poorly, as your fighters get +1/2/3 swords, and your Kinetisist doesn't (and has no way to overcome DR)
Answer) You gain bonuses for Elemental Overflow. You gain bonuses for Blast Training. You treat your Kineticist level as your base attack bonus for Devastating Blast. These bonuses are on par with the bonuses a Fighter gains with a magic weapon. A Kinetic Blast automatically bypasses DR/magic, and physical blasts, such as an Elemental Annihilator's favored blast, defeat type-based DR depending on the blast (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing). Rare Metal bypasses any metal-based DR. No way to bypass alignment-based DR. If you are already Aether, Expanded Element gives you Force Blast, an energy blast that DR can't affect and nothing in the game resists.
3) The Human FCB for Kineticist is to gain 1/6th of a wild talent. The Elemental Annihilator replaces all of their utility wild talents with bonus feats, but says 'they never gain wild talents.' Does this mean Human Elemental Annihilators cannot take the FCB to get a few wild talents on the side?
Answer) You cannot pick up Utility Wild Talents. You cab pick up extra Infusions you missed earlier.
|
|
To extend on CalethosVB's answer to 3; infusions and utility wild talents are both wild talents, they fall under the same umbrella of terminology, so while you can't ever gain a utility wild talent through the human favored class bonus, you can gain an infusion which is also considered a wild talent.
Okay, we are now talking 3PP in a PAIZO thread and forum...keep it where it belongs, please. Promoting your own product in a Paizo forum is rather rude, actually.
|
|
Okay, we are now talking 3PP in a PAIZO thread and forum...keep it where it belongs, please. Promoting your own product in a Paizo forum is rather rude, actually.
I wasn't the one to bring it up here (as can be seen by what I originally quoted), but I can remove it if it's not appropriate.
And to stay on topic here, EA gets full BAB plus Elemental Overflow, so even without a magic weapon, it should be comparable to normal to hit for martial classes, although as I've stated before, I don't think the loss of utility wild talents is really worth it for most characters. I doubt it'd be too 'jedi' to be lacking most of the utility wild talents, since really, those are what make the character jedi like in the first place.
|
|
At 1st level, an elemental annihilator can either shoot her kinetic blast at a target within 30 feet or make a single melee attack as if she were using kinetic blade as an attack action. For this attack, the elemental annihilator's base attack bonus from her kineticist levels is equal to her full kineticist level. A devastating infusion always deals an amount of damage equal to 1d8 + the elemental annihilator's Constitution modifier, regardless of the annihilator's class level or use of composite blasts. When making a melee attack with devastating infusion, the elemental annihilator doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, and if she uses two hands, the attack's damage is equal to 1d8 + 1-1/2 times her Constitution modifier. This is a 1st-level form infusion that costs 0 points of burn and can be used with any physical blast (but not energy blasts). Unlike with kinetic blade, the elemental annihilator can use Vital Strike with devastating infusion. The damage bonus from elemental overflow doesn't apply to devastating infusion's damage rolls.
As for the not Jedi thing: I figured it was a toss up: either get to full attack and take AoOs, or get to heal and telekinesis stuff around.
|
|
To be fair, I only said 'to hit', not damage. I care more about accuracy myself, and by DPR calcs, accuracy is generally better than raw damage. You deal 0 damage on every attack you miss, after all.
If you're willing to wait, you could do that with kinetic whip (seems like 9th/11th would be the earliest if you plan on branching out), although going kinetic whip over foe throw is a hard call since foe throw is seriously awesome. Aether's not a great element to solo with, so I'd probably expand (aether and either air or earth are good combos, I'd say air's more 'jedi'), but if you don't expand, you can pick up whip/throw at 7th which will really help your offense out.
As an aside here, your aetheric boost should help increase damage, although it's hard to use in combination with KB/W due to needing together energy to really use it effectively.
Overall, I think EA's not worth it in the long run, but that's just me.
|
I'd suggest considering the Overwhelming Soul archtype.
Pros:
*You can't take burn, even if forced to take burn by outside sources
*Always active damage boost that doesn't depend on taking burn
*Charisma as your DC and damage modifier stat with your blasts and wild talents
*Forced burn grants neg levels can't kill you instead of non-lethal damage
Cons:
*Lower constitution then a standard kineticist
*instead of burn, outside sources give you neg levels that can't be removed by anything(but vanish after 24 hours)
*can only use utility wild talents if the cost is 0
Kahel's only a level 3 overwhelming soul right now, but it's working out pretty well so far.
EA is great at damage, but it really misses the point of being a Kineticist imo. Giving up the utility talents is a bitter pill.
Personally, I wouldn't take EA for my own characters much either; it's a strong choice for damage, but not what I would prefer to play. But some playtesters let me know (based on posts and also the poll) that they wanted the kineticist elemental theming but on a character that could do damage like a full martial, and they didn't care about the utilities like I did, so I wrote elemental annihilator to be for them. It seems to have worked quite well there from what I've seen so far.
EA is great at damage, but it really misses the point of being a Kineticist imo. Giving up the utility talents is a bitter pill.Personally, I wouldn't take EA for my own characters much either; it's a strong choice for damage, but not what I would prefer to play. But some playtesters let me know (based on posts and also the poll) that they wanted the kineticist elemental theming but on a character that could do damage like a full martial, and they didn't care about the utilities like I did, so I wrote elemental annihilator to be for them. It seems to have worked quite well there from what I've seen so far.
Me and N. Jolly had a discussion before where I commented that I could see the EA as being almost on par with Paladin and Barbarian in terms of being the BSF of a party of four. In my eyes that's a great bar(b) to hit. Unfortunately, it's also just less fun.
As far as kinetic blade goes, so long as you have a steady supply of rocks you should be good. Since it's all cosmetic there's no reason a GM should get onto you for drawing rocks as a free action. At worse you use the bitter remains of the rocks as a weapon instead. (Though, for Star Wars flavor an Impervious weapon of exceedingly high quality would make an excellent replacement for a Force Weapon. A technique used to form the discblades of the Telekinetic masters Zeison Sha as well as early Je'daii Katana.)
I am playing an elemental annihilator and am currently level seven and loving it. I always wanted to play a gnomish tank and this lets me. But I must point out, you do not need 13 str for power attack. Your bonus feat at level 2 lets you take power attack without meeting the prereqs. My gnomes ability scores are currently 5/21/22/7/14/9 with a base 3 burn for overflow size bumps. I have to keep a very close eye on what I carry, but it is a lot of fun.The plan was to get 13 str for power attack, but put the bulk of my points into Dex for weapon finesse, and Con for damage.
I was wondering how long it would take people to spot that Power Attack workaround I put into the annihilator. Kudos on that (apologies to anyone who caught it earlier; this is the first one I saw) and on a fun-looking gnome beater/tank build!
Me and N. Jolly had a discussion before where I commented that I could see the EA as being almost on par with Paladin and Barbarian in terms of being the BSF of a party of four. In my eyes that's a great bar(b) to hit. Unfortunately, it's also just less fun.
For me and for you it might be less fun, yes, but not everyone is looking for the same things that we are. But then, I intentionally designed a class I would have fun with, so the variants that trade away part of the class to be better at other aspects are pretty much guaranteed to be less fun for me, at the least.
Can I ask why energy elements(like fire) can't be EA Kineticists? Was it because Power Attack and Deadly Aim don't work for touch attacks?
Can I ask why energy elements(like fire) can't be EA Kineticists? Was it because Power Attack and Deadly Aim don't work for touch attacks?
It's a little bit that, but mostly because EA would not be balanced in the damage it would put out if it targeted touch AC. Another poster had a great idea to allow energy but your attacks with the two relevant form infusions just don't target touch AC; that would be a great option, and I recommend it!
That makes sense until you remember what Gunslingers do.
And from a mechanical standpoint, there's nothing wrong with them(except after level 6 if you read the boards a lot). In fact, they get to add magical enchancements to their attacks. What item adds to Kinetic Blasts like an Amulet of the Mighty Fists adds to natural attacks? What adds weapon special abilities like seeking to the blasts? +1 to +5?
Yeah, but crossbows could pierce armor as well, yet they didn't get that ability. I think at least heavy crossbows should just to make up for there lode time.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...I must add, I love this class, and to see a classes designer show up in most, if not all, post talking about their class... It really is great. We are all passionate about our hobbies, some of us attach to aspects of that hobby, and it really is great seeing the designer as passionate about it as we are.
Even though I am playing a version you would not play, I appreciate that you can and do show your passion.
Thanks! It's always good to hear, as people are more likely to post negative feedback than positive. And it was players like you who helped me make sure to include that archetype by doing a great job at explaining what they liked and why in the playtest, so I could have all the perspectives at my fingertips when writing archetypes. Honestly, I would enjoy an elemental annihilator character, just not as much as a normal kineticist due to my typical playstyle being more about teamwork and utility than DPR.
Hi
Just checking - the blast for EA is still level based on D6's? I believe it still does full Con bonus to damage since it's a physical attack?
Just starting up a Dwarven EA in PFS
Thanks
Paul H
The elemental annihilator's regular kinetic blast would be just like a normal kineticist's kinetic blast, number D6's based on odd levels of kineticist levels. If its a physical blast, then adds full Con modifier. If the elemental annihilator picks up an energy blast, then it only uses half the Con modifier.
When using devastating infusion with a physical blast, the damage is 1d8+Con modifier. If the devastating infusion melee blade is set as a light weapon, can be finessed. If the devastating infusion melee blade is set as a one-handed you can two-hand it for 1d8 + 1.5xCon damage but it can't be finessed by default and the annihilator has to use strength modifier to attack with it.
Or at least, I'm assuming you're talking about elemental annihilator and not the elemental ascetic.