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Mastering the Elements: N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Kineticist


Advice

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Silver Crusade

35 people marked this as a favorite.

Oh man, it's been a long wait, but I've finally broken ground on this class. Unlike my last guide, I want the community to be a bigger part of the creation of this guide, so I'm opening up discussion as early as the first words are written.

Two lovers, forbidden from one another
A war divides their people
And a mountain divides them apart
Built a path to be together

...Yeah, and I forget the next couple of lines, but then it goes...

Secret tunnel!
Secret tunnel!
Through the mountain!
Secret, secret, secret, secret tunnel! Yeah!

I want to hear what everyone wants from this guide, to know what things you want better explained, and what you need clarified.

This is as much the community's guide as it is mine, and I want to provide you the best guide that I can. Consider this the first time something involving the kineticist actually listens to feedback! (Kidding, Mark...)

I should note that I haven't gotten a lot of hands on time with the class since the playtest, so hopefully soon I'll be adding more personal experience to this than before.

NOTE: All discussion of 3rd party content from Kineticist of Porphyra or other 3rd party sources should be done in the official Kineticist of Porphyra discussion thread.


Well this was a speedy work. Nice..
I'll go through this now~

Off hand I don't see any difference in the 3 different links. so I assume same; just sparsed out for the aesthetic effects.

Probaly won't have much input until I go over the class with more detail.. but off hand be sure to explain how the spell level works with regards to when you take them etc.
Its basically "twice the level and you can take it" but I've seen plenty of folks confuse on it and on other interactions.


I'm sorry to have to put it this way, but one of the things we *need* to see in the guide, in addition of course to how to best use or optimize things, is how it holds up to others with a similar primary role.

Because a gathered blast takes up your whole turn, so it would be quite disingenuous to compare it to single attacks instead of full volleys - which I've noticed some people seem to do on these forums.

Here's a question though: will the color scale be in relation to other options in the class, or in relation to the game in general? What I mean by that is, if something would be orange or red under most circumstances, is it blue by virtue of being as good as it gets on a kineticist?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I am very happy that there is a guide upt to this class this early, some of my players have asked questions about the class and with my occult adventures stuck in delivery i am quite happy to have something to point them to.

Silver Crusade

Jamie Charlan wrote:

I'm sorry to have to put it this way, but one of the things we *need* to see in the guide, in addition of course to how to best use or optimize things, is how it holds up to others with a similar primary role.

Because a gathered blast takes up your whole turn, so it would be quite disingenuous to compare it to single attacks instead of full volleys - which I've noticed some people seem to do on these forums.

Here's a question though: will the color scale be in relation to other options in the class, or in relation to the game in general? What I mean by that is, if something would be orange or red under most circumstances, is it blue by virtue of being as good as it gets on a kineticist?

I can understand that, and right now the biggest problem I'm seeing is mid game damage for the class. I feel that the damage does need to be talked about, although finding a way to do so is important. There is utility here that can be discussed as a way to beat out the martials who are straight destroying it in damage.

Personally, right now the absolute BRUTAL tax on attacking more than once a round is really bothering me, like if we had 2 attacks with this thing a round and 3 as a 'nova', its damage wouldn't bother me at all.

And the color scaling is ALWAYS in relation to the class itself. It's unfair (and for me impossible) to judge it to the whole of the game, and this guide is only about the kineticist, so including other classes in its grading isn't fair. I do understand that it's probably mid t4 due to these problems, and I do plan on including a section on possible house rules like I did for the investigator.

schattenstern wrote:
I am very happy that there is a guide upt to this class this early, some of my players have asked questions about the class and with my occult adventures stuck in delivery i am quite happy to have something to point them to.

Happy to help. Right now I'm almost moreso working on making the best of a bad situation with some of these abilities, pushing them up to and above par, since right now the default assumption of the class seems to be "it has utility and perma blast, it can't be strong."


It should be noted that the word "Bender" is used repeatedly. While fantastic for people that have/watch that animated series on Nikolodean? for the rest of us, we're looking at it trying to figure out what the "Bender" is, fanning through the book for what we missed, and googling it until we discover that series...

Please use the class name?

Silver Crusade

Sphynx wrote:

It should be noted that the word "Bender" is used repeatedly. While fantastic for people that have/watch that animated series on Nikolodean? for the rest of us, we're looking at it trying to figure out what the "Bender" is, fanning through the book for what we missed, and googling it until we discover that series...

Please use the class name?

*GRUMBLE GRUMBLE*...my guide...*GRUMBLE GRUMBLE*...call it what I want...*GRUMBLE GRUMBLE*

Nah, that's fine. I'll avoid using the term 'bender' in reference to any official terminology for the guide. It probably was a bit silly to do it in the first place, thanks for the suggestion.

Paizo Employee Designer

3 people marked this as a favorite.
N. Jolly wrote:


This is as much the community's guide as it is mine, and I want to provide you the best guide that I can. Consider this the first time something involving the kineticist actually listens to feedback! (Kidding, Mark...)

I'm not sure what the kidding is; is the idea that you are poking fun at the people who were saying that?

Quote:
I should note that I haven't gotten a lot of hands on time with the class since the playtest, so hopefully soon I'll be adding more personal experience to this than before.

I know people are saying that they're glad for a guide to come up so early, but I would actually say it's possible you may want to wait until you get more play experience before writing a guide, at least from my personal guide-writing experience; I tended to not write guides until I was familiar with a class from a lot of play, so I could be more sure of myself in rating different abilities. Sometimes subtle things can lead to big differences in play (for instance, gather power reduces the cost of metakinesis, which the guide currently seems to be saying is not the case; this is generally a big deal for damage).


One thing that the class seems to clearly encourage is switch hitting, or even dedicated melee builds. I would like to see different thoughts on making that work, personally.

Silver Crusade

Mark Seifter wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:


This is as much the community's guide as it is mine, and I want to provide you the best guide that I can. Consider this the first time something involving the kineticist actually listens to feedback! (Kidding, Mark...)

I'm not sure what the kidding is; is the idea that you are poking fun at the people who were saying that?

Quote:
I should note that I haven't gotten a lot of hands on time with the class since the playtest, so hopefully soon I'll be adding more personal experience to this than before.
I know people are saying that they're glad for a guide to come up so early, but I would actually say it's possible you may want to wait until you get more play experience before writing a guide, at least from my personal guide-writing experience; I tended to not write guides until I was familiar with a class from a lot of play, so I could be more sure of myself in rating different abilities. Sometimes subtle things can lead to big differences in play (for instance, gather power reduces the cost of metakinesis, which the guide currently seems to be saying is not the case; this is generally a big deal for damage).

More about what people were saying. Personally you're the member of the Paizo staff I like the most now, it was just a playful jab at how the community reacted to everything.

Honestly one of the reasons I wanted to make this guide more public was to catch issues like that. From the wording, that's not very clear, as the wording reads:

Quote:
The kineticist can instead gather power for 1 full round in order to reduce the total burn cost of a blast wild talent...

And the metakineticist ability is not a blast wild talent from what I can see. If you have to use a blast wild power to allow gather energy to work with it, I could understand that, but metakineticist doesn't imply it's a blast wild talent, which is where the confusion comes from.

Playing the class wouldn't have taught me that, but I will have more hands on experience with the FULL class (since as stated, I was a part of the playtest and post playtest using the notes you included in your post about the class), which will give me more relevant input into this class.

Personally, I'd love it if you did follow this thread and helped me with things that I may not be clear on that you would be due to your involvement of the class. Clarifying any issues with concerns such as how abilities work can only benefit the class as a whole.

Johnny_Devo wrote:
One thing that the class seems to clearly encourage is switch hitting, or even dedicated melee builds. I would like to see different thoughts on making that work, personally.

From the good things I've heard about Kinetic Fist, it may end up being the preeminent build for this class, although there's still quite a bit to work through on that. Definitely something I'd consider including, thanks for the suggestion!

Paizo Employee Designer

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 18 people marked this as a favorite.

Cool, I'd be glad to help out along the way!

:Rereads the final wording of metakinesis. Spits out drink.:

Woah! Metakinesis's wording is much more unclear than it should be; it's muddled where the cost lies and doesn't specifically say it raises the cost of the blast like infusion. It was supposed to, but copyfitting is a harsh mistress, I guess. I can completely see where you took that away from reading the ability; I wonder why the other people talking about the class hadn't asked me that yet (given there's been a big debate about the class's capabilities, I would have expected someone who disliked the class to point that out by now, given the exact wording). Excellent catch! I will confirm that things that modify your blast all add up to form the cost of your blast.

Yeah, hands-on experience couldn't notice that for sure; mostly only messageboard discussion about metakinesis. Hands-on experience may change your opinion on internal buffer, though, perhaps. I know I found it much more useful than I had initially expected it to be when I got into crunched situations.

I remembered your posts in the playtest thread, so I knew you helped me out playtesting for sure; though I think I mentioned metakinesis and gather power back then, it was a long long thread where it was hard to find any one thing, and anyway the text probably changed in copyfitting since then.

Silver Crusade

Mark Seifter wrote:

Cool, I'd be glad to help out along the way!

:Rereads the final wording of metakinesis. Spits out drink.:

Woah! Metakinesis's wording is much more unclear than it should be; it's muddled where the cost lies and doesn't specifically say it raises the cost of the blast like infusion. It was supposed to, but copyfitting is a harsh mistress. I can completely see where you took that away from reading the ability; I wonder why the other people talking about the class hadn't asked me that yet. Excellent catch!

It's fine, I've done some third party class creation, and seeing what happens when formatting strikes (a harsh, harsh mistress) can be rather jarring. Perhaps this would be a good call for an errata to the wording for that, I'll try and make sure to send a message to the PFSRD about this correction, linking your response to it as well.

Trust me, I don't want to have this be a harsh critique of anything, I want to provide a complete and flavorful guide for people who want to play this class. Any designer intent that I may be missing or misreading (I am only one person doing these) would be appreciated. I'm attempting to write the parts that I can do from reading alone first, as to not misrepresent the class's in game strengths. But the nice thing about guides is I can always come back and clear things up after correction.

EDIT: As for buffer, I can see the value, but it also seems like a smaller benefit. This isn't a bad thing, we all need to fill every level, but I'm sure once I'm in more actual games with it I'll be able to give it an accurate rating. Remember, these ratings are relative to each other, and at best Buffer isn't as good as Gather Power, thus the lower rating.

I'll be adding more as I learn more though, since that's the fun of what I do. Not like I expect to be finished in a day with this. It'll take at least 2.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Johnny_Devo wrote:
One thing that the class seems to clearly encourage is switch hitting, or even dedicated melee builds. I would like to see different thoughts on making that work, personally.

Having a fair degree of experience with a playtest kinetic blade build, I'm considering drawing up a guide to the blade kineticist, but I want to get more post-playtest experience to see how changes have settled before I do.

Silver Crusade

Arutema wrote:
Johnny_Devo wrote:
One thing that the class seems to clearly encourage is switch hitting, or even dedicated melee builds. I would like to see different thoughts on making that work, personally.
Having a fair degree of experience with a playtest kinetic blade build, I'm considering drawing up a guide to the blade kineticist, but I want to get more post-playtest experience to see how changes have settled before I do.

I'd welcome another more focused guide on this class, and I'd love to read it once you get started on it. I've just been TOO excited to start this guide and get back into the swing of things, so I'm just jumping on the "N. Jolly has a guide for every book" bandwagon again.


I'm watching you type out Composite Blast Specialization as we speak. It's kind of funny. I'm having trouble determining how to best play this class. The whole choosing the primary blast kind of narrows you. It'll take some time to look at each style IMO.

Paizo Employee Designer

N. Jolly wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Cool, I'd be glad to help out along the way!

:Rereads the final wording of metakinesis. Spits out drink.:

Woah! Metakinesis's wording is much more unclear than it should be; it's muddled where the cost lies and doesn't specifically say it raises the cost of the blast like infusion. It was supposed to, but copyfitting is a harsh mistress. I can completely see where you took that away from reading the ability; I wonder why the other people talking about the class hadn't asked me that yet. Excellent catch!

It's fine, I've done some third party class creation, and seeing what happens when formatting strikes (a harsh, harsh mistress) can be rather jarring. Perhaps this would be a good call for an errata to the wording for that, I'll try and make sure to send a message to the PFSRD about this correction, linking your response to it as well.

Trust me, I don't want to have this be a harsh critique of anything, I want to provide a complete and flavorful guide for people who want to play this class. Any designer intent that I may be missing or misreading (I am only one person doing these) would be appreciated. I'm attempting to write the parts that I can do from reading alone first, as to not misrepresent the class's in game strengths. But the nice thing about guides is I can always come back and clear things up after correction.

EDIT: As for buffer, I can see the value, but it also seems like a smaller benefit. This isn't a bad thing, we all need to fill every level, but I'm sure once I'm in more actual games with it I'll be able to give it an accurate rating. Not like I expect to be finished in a day with this. It'll take at least 2.

Copyfitting was...an especially harsh mistress for this class. It was hard for me to win over even the number of pages the kineticist got, and then I refused to cut any of the current wild talents for space, so copyfitting was really brutal. I'll add this one to my FAQ list for OA clarifications.

And yeah, don't we both know it about guides and revise, revise, revise!

As for internal buffer, in addition to the typical filling it before going to sleep to get more stuff the next day, there's the fact that it doesn't count as taking burn, and the per-round limit. Since I've been playing with the final version for quite a while now, there have been times this saved my bacon by letting me alpha strike 1 burn more worth of stuff in the same round (since it wasn't taking burn) past the usual per-round limit, to pull off a quickened blast and a composite full attack with kinetic blade. It was pretty useful, though I do try to avoid situations where I'm in need of such a big attack anyway (but the GM was making our poor level 13 group fight a group of 4 CR 14-16 enemies led by a 3rd party CR 17 monster with the AC of a CR 25 and attack bonus and damage of CR low 20s, so we needed it!)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I know I posted this before, but just in case, wanted to post it again on this thread so it's all in one place.

It should be remembered that there is so much more than the Blast about the kineticist. They can be very easily (especially the Aether Telekinetic) as good as a rogue at non-combat stuff. While I realize that the primary purpose of a guide is how to optimize for battle, We have a lot more that we can do. Here is a copy of my 12th level character, who makes most rogue builds look inadequate in rogue-ish abilities, primarily because, unlike the Rogue, we really have a lot of feats to spare if we accept a lesser combat role (which is still a powerful role as I'm discovering in my own group, and I'm completely un-optimized for combat).

I start each day with 5 of 10 Burn for a 40% vs Missiles and 30 TmpHP.

Aaron:
Aaron (12th level Kineticist)55
Male sylph kineticist 12 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 156)
NG Medium outsider (native)
Init +9; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 16, flat-footed 18 (+8 armor, +6 Dex)
hp 201 (12d8+108)
Fort +15, Ref +15, Will +6; +1 Luck bonus vs. traps
Defensive Abilities fortification 25%; Resist electricity 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Ranged electric blast +20 touch (6d6+10 electricity) or
. . telekinetic blast +20 (6d6+20)
Kineticist Spell-Like Abilities (CL 0th; concentration +0)
. . Constant—feather fall
. . At will—basic aerokinesis, basic telekinesis
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 9, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +9; CMB +8; CMD 25
Feats Deft Hands, Extra Wild Talent, Extra Wild Talent, Iron Will, Stealthy, Toughness
Traits adopted, elven reflexes, trap finder
Skills Acrobatics +22, Disable Device +29, Escape Artist +23, Fly +29, Perception +15, Sleight of Hand +26, Stealth +40, Survival +12, Use Magic Device +15; Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth
Languages Aquan, Auran, Common, Elven, Ignan, Sylvan, Terran
SQ breeze-kissed, burn, elemental focuses and expanded elements (aether, expanded element [air]), elemental overflow, enveloping winds, force ward, gather power, infusion specialization, infusions (bowling infusion, extended range, extreme range, foe throw, pushing infusion), internal buffer, kinetic blast, metakinesis, metakinesis, utility wild talents (air cushion, engulfing winds, expanded defense [enveloping winds], telekinetic finesse, telekinetic haul, telekinetic invisibility, touchsight, wings of air)
Combat Gear arrowmaster's bracers; Other Gear +4 shadow, improved mithral chain shirt, belt of physical might +4 (Dex, Con), headband of vast intelligence +4, mercury gloves, masterwork thieves' tools
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Aetheric Boost (Sp) Level 6; Burn 2
Air Cushion (Sp) Constantly under the effects of feather fall.
Arrowmaster's bracers (1/day) DR 5/magic & +1 deflection vs ranged, activate for +20 to ranged att.
Basic Aerokinesis (At will) (Sp) You can create a light breeze that blows against a creature or object from a direction of your choice that follows the target wherever it goes.
Basic Telekinesis (At will) (Sp) This ability is similar to mage hand, except you can move an object that weighs up to 5 pounds per 2 kineticist levels you possess (minimum 5 pounds), and you can move magical objects.
Bowling Infusion Blast also trips foes.
Breeze-Kissed (1/day) +2 AC versus nonmagical ranged attacks. Bull rush/trip with air 1/day within 30 ft.
Burn 4/round (12 nonlethal/burn, 10/day) Burn HP to gain greater effects on your wild talents.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Elemental Overflow +4/+8 (Max +4, +2 CON, +4 DEX, +2 STR, 25% fortification) (Ex) Gain a bonus to hit and damage with your blast when you use burn.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Enveloping Winds (30% +5%/burn) (Su) Ranged attacks with physical weapons have a 30% miss chance
Extended Range Kinetic blast has range of 120ft.
Extreme Electric Blast (Sp) Level 6; Burn 0
Extreme Range Kinetic blast has range of 480ft.
Extreme Telekinetic Blast (Sp) Level 6; Burn 0
Foe Throw Throw a creature if it fails its save.
Force Ward (12 hp +6 hp/burn) (Su) Gain 12 temporary hp
Fortification 25% You have a chance to negate critical hits on attacks.
Infusion Specialization 3 (Ex) Reduce burn cost of blasts with infusions by 3
Internal Buffer 2 (Su) Store burn for use later
Kinetic Blast (Sp) The kineticist can unleash her kinetic blast at a range of 30 feet at will.
Kinetic Healer (Sp) Heal others equal to your blast damage
Metakinesis (1 burn: Empower) (Su) By accepting burn you affect your kinetic blast as if using a metamagic ability.
Metakinesis (2 burn: Maximize) (Su) By accepting burn you affect your kinetic blast as if using a metamagic ability.
Pushing Infusion Your kinetic blasts makes Bull Rush CMB using Con.
Quickfinger gloves +5 to Disable Device against traps, +1 luck bonus to saves vs traps.
Supercharge (Su) Move: reduce the burn cost of a blast by 2 or Full-round: reduce the burn cost of a blast by 3
Telekinetic Finesse (Sp) Use telekinesis to perform Sleight of Hand and Disable Device checks.
Telekinetic Haul (Sp) Move an object that weighs up to 100 lbs. per kineticist level.
Telekinetic Invisibility (Sp) Grants invisibility
Touchsight (Su)

Your telekinesis allows you to keep track of unseen things that it touches.
Trap Finder Use Disable Device to disarm magic traps, like a rogue.
Wings of Air (Sp) You are constantly under the effects of fly.

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Comments on the actual document thus far...

First "Burn" should definitely not be red. Black perhaps, but by making it Red, you're telling people to not use it, when it's the most important thing to use. I understand that there's a dislike for the feature, and that it can be dangerous to use, but it's also an integral part of the class that can't be ignored. Personally I'd rate it as Blue because you can get by without using it, but without it you're handicapping yourself.

Elemental Focus should include the main differences between the different choices. Perhaps putting the Elemental Focus in blue, but underneath it placing each element in a certain power range (though personally I'd make the Elemental Force black, since that's not a choice, it's what you choose that's the choice... and it's unlikely that any Archetype will ever drop this feature). Aether would be green because they sacrifice a lot of damage for utility. They are a more "tactical" element. Air would be Green because it's all about mobility with only a few upper tier infusions of interest, but at least unlike Aether, it has double-damage composites. Etc, etc... The same for Elemental Defense, this is really the point where you may (or may not) want to color Elemental Defense, but should definitely color the usefulness of each element's defense. Which element is best for damage, which element is best for defense...

The colors of the other "features" is to help people looking at Archetypes, if they're dropping a bluer or redder option than the one they're taking. With your coloring, while accurate, you're also telling people not to take an archetype unless the only things sacrificed are the Internal Buffer or the level 19+ features. For this reason, I think Infusion and Elemental Defense should be Orange instead of Green... here's why...

Elemental Defenses are really "meh". Even Aether, having it or not having it doesn't really make that huge of a difference (since you can pop healing potions or a wand pretty easily). It's -nice-, but if an archetype sounded interesting, and replaced Elemental Defense with something that was actually Green or Blue, it would be ok to switch to that archetype.

Similarly for Infusions... While they are obviously the core of a nova ability, their advantages are offset by the Burn they take, and the saves they grant to avoid them on some. If an archetype came out that replaced Infusions with +1d6 per 2 levels (or some such), it would not necessarily be bad to exchange those out. The color isn't about how good it is at this point, it's about how quickly you should be willing to exchange them out for an alternative.

Skills...

Acrobatics, Green for all but air. Air won't need this.
Perception, Definitely not purple. You can easily survive without a score in perception. It's nice, definitely a Blue, but you define purple as something you can't live without... you can't live without perception anymore so than living without Stealth which should be blue for Aether because it boosts their invisibility score (potentially more than doubling it). :P

It may sound as if I'm being critical in my critique, I just want to say that I'm not... I think it's fantastic so far, and even if you ignore my advice, it's still a good guide. I don't agree with a lot of good guides, they're still good. :)

Silver Crusade

Sphynx wrote:

Comments on the actual document thus far...

First "Burn" should definitely not be red. Black perhaps, but by making it Red, you're telling people to not use it, when it's the most important thing to use. I understand that there's a dislike for the feature, and that it can be dangerous to use, but it's also an integral part of the class that can't be ignored. Personally I'd rate it as Blue because you can get by without using it, but without it you're handicapping yourself.

That's fair, black probably works better. It was being rated independent of the other abilities, but black probably does work better for it.

Quote:
Elemental Focus should include the main differences between the different choices. Perhaps putting the Elemental Focus in blue, but underneath it placing each element in a certain power range (though personally I'd make the Elemental Force black, since that's not a choice, it's what you choose that's the choice... and it's unlikely that any Archetype will ever drop this feature). Aether would be green because they sacrifice a lot of damage for utility. They are a more "tactical" element. Air would be Green because it's all about mobility with only a few upper tier infusions of interest, but at least unlike Aether, it has double-damage composites. Etc, etc... The same for Elemental Defense, this is really the point where you may (or may not) want to color Elemental Defense, but should definitely color the usefulness of each element's defense. Which element is best for damage, which element is best for defense...

I'm actually saving talking about elements in the talents section, which I plan on expanding on.

Quote:

The colors of the other "features" is to help people looking at Archetypes, if they're dropping a bluer or redder option than the one they're taking. With your coloring, while accurate, you're also telling people not to take an archetype unless the only things sacrificed are the Internal Buffer or the level 19+ features. For this reason, I think Infusion and Elemental Defense should be Orange instead of Green... here's why...

Elemental Defenses are really "meh". Even Aether, having it or not having it doesn't really make that huge of a difference (since you can pop healing potions or a wand pretty easily). It's -nice-, but if an archetype sounded interesting, and replaced Elemental Defense with something that was actually Green or Blue, it would be ok to switch to that archetype.

Similarly for Infusions... While they are obviously the core of a nova ability, their advantages are offset by the Burn they take, and the saves they grant to avoid them on some. If an archetype came out that replaced Infusions with +1d6 per 2 levels (or some such), it would not necessarily be bad to exchange those out. The color isn't about how good it is at this point, it's about how quickly you should be willing to exchange them out for an alternative.

Elemental Defense was a very low green, so yeah, it's not hard to consider dropping it to orange (I only really like earth and aether for this), so that's not a hard call. For Infusions, I like them (not as much as composite, but that's me), and I think they're unique enough to merit green. To be fair, green just means good, it's not hard to trade out green for green, vertical movement can be upwards movement if it fits your playstyle better.

Quote:

Skills...

Acrobatics, Green for all but air. Air won't need this.
Perception, Definitely not purple. You can easily survive without a score in perception. It's nice, definitely a Blue, but you define purple as something you can't live without... you can't live without perception anymore so than living without Stealth which should be blue for Aether because it boosts their invisibility score (potentially more than doubling it). :P

It may sound as if I'm being critical in my critique, I just want to say that I'm not... I think it's fantastic so far, and even if you ignore my advice, it's still a good guide. I don't agree with a lot of good guides, they're still good. :)

I'm not really for splitting hairs between different elements for reviews (there's too many to consider doing this, unlike with the alch guide, where there was only 3), although I might mention it more in the elements section.

And perception is the most used skill in the game, it's always going to be purple for me, and having it as a class skill is beautiful. I'd personally give it to every class perception because of how important I find it.

And it's fine, be critical, this guide won't get better if there aren't people being critical of it. I'm not perfect...somehow...so any input is valid. And you can disagree with my guides, they're not absolute, except my Alchemist guide, which is without flaw.

Thanks for the input, I do appreciate it!


N. Jolly wrote:
perception is the most used skill in the game, it's always going to be purple for me, and having it as a class skill is beautiful. I'd personally give it to every class perception because of how important I find it.

Precisely why it's not purple. Just as it's not purple for all the other classes.

Perception is important, no doubt about that, but it's not essential (dependent of course on the GM playstyle). There are people who dump wis, never take Perception, and don't have it as a class skill who are considered "optimized". And, since this is an optimization guide, which relates to combat, while Perception is important (for surprise rounds), it's only important for the same exact reason that Stealth is important. Stealth not only lets you shoot vs Flat-Foot AC, but at -2 to the AC. For a class that has 1 attack action, this is even bigger than for other classes where followup attacks use regular AC instead of flatfoot.

If someone is in a class that has Stealth as a class skill, Dex as a primary stat, stealth should, in my opinion, be more purple than perception (be the predator, not the prey).

Ps. I believe I feel the same way about Stealth that you feel about Perception because it's a focus of our GM, where if we're not stealthy, we tend to miss out on things... it can be very situational. :)


Was also thinking that you should recommend creating pre-calculated blasts in this.

Personally, I hate taking Burn, so I've put all my "free" infusion combinations on cards.

If someone is within 30' of me, I always use Foe Throw + Pushing
elseIf someone is within 120' of me, I always use Extended Range + Bowling
elseIf someone is within 480' (hasn't happened yet), I have an Extreme Range + Pushing ready.

This lets you have all the data on the card... lime what your CMB is. ;) I always know which "Form" infusion I need to use, based on distance. Now I don't have to scroll around to see which "Substance" infusion I can stack with it, and reserve my Burn (or Gather Power Move Action) purely for Empower, or if I have the time to spare, a Full+Move to do both an Empower and Maximize for free...


First of all, thanks for taking the time and effort to make this guide happen. That goes both to you, and to those providing feedback. I'll be following it closely, out of personal interest, and maybe giving my opinion every so often.

In regarding to the work in progress... I know you're still working on the elements (I'm seeing you type the aether utilities right now), but it would be VERY useful if you rated them (so far, AEther's name is in black). Actualy, two ratings per element (as main, and as expanded element) would be grand.

Keep up the good work!

Silver Crusade

Sphynx wrote:

Was also thinking that you should recommend creating pre-calculated blasts in this.

Personally, I hate taking Burn, so I've put all my "free" infusion combinations on cards.

If someone is within 30' of me, I always use Foe Throw + Pushing
elseIf someone is within 120' of me, I always use Extended Range + Bowling
elseIf someone is within 480' (hasn't happened yet), I have an Extreme Range + Pushing ready.

This lets you have all the data on the card... lime what your CMB is. ;) I always know which "Form" infusion I need to use, based on distance. Now I don't have to scroll around to see which "Substance" infusion I can stack with it, and reserve my Burn (or Gather Power Move Action) purely for Empower, or if I have the time to spare, a Full+Move to do both an Empower and Maximize for free...

I do like that idea, I've heard one of the issues that people have had with this class is complexity, and I'd like to try to cut down on that, so I'm attempting to give as much information as possible. But making sure players are cutting down on needless math as much as possible is always smart.

I doubt we'll see eye to eye on perception vs. stealth (and that was a pun), but I can see where you're coming from, as I do love stealth builds. For proof of that, I might need to make my crossbow sniper and post it later in the gunslinger thread.

Efreeti wrote:

First of all, thanks for taking the time and effort to make this guide happen. That goes both to you, and to those providing feedback. I'll be following it closely, out of personal interest, and maybe giving my opinion every so often.

In regarding to the work in progress... I know you're still working on the elements (I'm seeing you type the aether utilities right now), but it would be VERY useful if you rated them (so far, AEther's name is in black). Actualy, two ratings per element (as main, and as expanded element) would be grand.

Keep up the good work!

Both of us? I'm the only one doing this guide, ya know! Kidding, I know what you mean.

Hm, I'm somewhat conflicted on rating the elements as a whole. I almost feel that rating them as a whole leads to a 'best', and for guides like mine, I want to leave as many options open as possible rather than closing doors unless I know said doors don't lead anywhere worth going.

I'd like to get more opinions on this, do you all think elements as a whole should be rated, or left black?


N. Jolly wrote:


I doubt we'll see eye to eye on perception vs. stealth (and that was a pun), but I can see where you're coming from, as I do love stealth builds.

Of course, we don't have to agree, but you really should make the 2 skills equal. If one is purple, the other should be purple for all the same reasons. If one is green, the other should be green for all the same reasons. The best compromise would be blue though. :P I'm far more ok with Perception being Purple, than Stealth being green. ;)

I think Stealth trumps Perception because Dex is a class stat. Stealth will be awesome without even trying, whereas your Perception will be just good. ;)


N. Jolly wrote:
I'd like to get more opinions on this, do you all think elements as a whole should be rated, or left black?

I think that in a guide, the need to be rated, even if you rate all of them the same color, it tells someone looking at the guide for what to choose that they're all good choices and theme can be a focus without a concern that they are losing out by picking a theme.


Aether:
Sleight of Hand should be green instead of orange, and knowledge should be red instead of orange. :P Sleight of hand gets a higher rating because we can do it ranged (finesse), get the dex bonus, the class bonus, and are better at stealing a weapon from a scabbard from range than a thief is up close and in person. There are a vast number of uses for this skill. Engineering however, no sense in wasting points there when you have stuff like Sleight/Stealth/Perception/Etc.

I'd make the "Class Skills" black, and color the actual skill in the descriptions so you don't need to change the layout if you agree that they should have different ratings. ;)

Should include one of the main reasons that the Self-TKs are not Green/Blue: Standard actions to move instead of move actions. However, since you need the lesser one to get the greater one, maybe both should be green...


Sphynx wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:


I doubt we'll see eye to eye on perception vs. stealth (and that was a pun), but I can see where you're coming from, as I do love stealth builds.

Of course, we don't have to agree, but you really should make the 2 skills equal. If one is purple, the other should be purple for all the same reasons. If one is green, the other should be green for all the same reasons. The best compromise would be blue though. :P I'm far more ok with Perception being Purple, than Stealth being green. ;)

I think Stealth trumps Perception because Dex is a class stat. Stealth will be awesome without even trying, whereas your Perception will be just good. ;)

Perception is for more than just beating stealth though. You roll perception vs environment all of the time. Meanwhile, stealth seems to only be rolled vs perception. There is no other cause to use it.

But the biggest problem with stealth is that unless you want to split your party, your stealth is only as high as your least stealthy teammate.

Silver Crusade

Sphynx wrote:

Aether:

Sleight of Hand should be green instead of orange, and knowledge should be red instead of orange. :P Sleight of hand gets a higher rating because we can do it ranged (finesse), get the dex bonus, the class bonus, and are better at stealing a weapon from a scabbard from range than a thief is up close and in person. There are a vast number of uses for this skill. Engineering however, no sense in wasting points there when you have stuff like Sleight/Stealth/Perception/Etc.

I'd make the "Class Skills" black, and color the actual skill in the descriptions so you don't need to change the layout if you agree that they should have different ratings. ;)

Should include one of the main reasons that the Self-TKs are not Green/Blue: Standard actions to move instead of move actions. However, since you need the lesser one to get the greater one, maybe both should be green...

I thought I made it clear that Self TK was lesser due to its action cost,although it's not blue to me even for greater due to the loss of gather power, trading mobility for raw damage. As for class skills, I completely agree with you on the difference between them, but having yet another 'header' section for something like that makes me cringe. This guide is requiring far more heading sections than I would want.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

You can still use Gather Power with greater Self TK/Flame Jet, as you can hover without using an action.

Also, you missed an interaction between Force Ward and TK Deflection: If an attack hits you and the damage is completely absorbed by your Force Ward, it counts as a Miss, and thus would trigger the deflection effect.


Sphynx wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
I'd like to get more opinions on this, do you all think elements as a whole should be rated, or left black?
I think that in a guide, the need to be rated, even if you rate all of them the same color, it tells someone looking at the guide for what to choose that they're all good choices and theme can be a focus without a concern that they are losing out by picking a theme.

One issue is that a big audience of the guides is people who don't look at a game mechanic and see how it plays until they have some experience. I'd rate the elements but I'd give them three ratings. Offense, Defense, Utility.

Fire:
For example, Fire would probably be blue or green on offense. It gets areas early and lots of blast infusions. It has an issue with fire resistance and spell resistance. These can be mitigated later, but there's holes where you don't get them.

I'd say fire is red on defense. Their defense doesn't deflect or absorb hit, it merely discourages some people from attacking you in melee. Since it's only vs. unarmed, natural weapons, and people with non-magic wooden weapons, it's pretty limited.

Fire is orange on utility. They get the universal ones, and their special stuff isn't that special. Flame Jet is very limited flight, made much better when you get to the greater version.

Aether:
On the other hand Aether is Orange on offense. They have a good physical blast, but their compositing sucks. Foe throw allows harming two at the expense of adding a save in there. At 6 total burn Disintegrate is too expensive to be a common use, but it can be devastating when you need it.

Aether is Purple on defense, Blue or Green if your group uses lots of 1min/level spells and rushes about or if your group is not good at dealing damage. Where most other defenses only work against certain types of attack, Aether affects anything that does hit point damage. It's limited in capacity, which should be a limited problem in groups that kill opponents efficiently. Aether also means that you start out more robust than your average character and if you boost con with your elemental overflow, then you can stay more robust to a significant level of burn towards THP. The temp hit points and con boost go a long way to compensating.

Aether is blue to purple on utility. If they pick up the ability to spot magical traps elsewhere, then they can disable them from a distance, which makes many traps harmless. They can do maneuvers. They get the same half-assed flight as fire. Invisibility. A little healing. Spell turning!

Silver Crusade

Imbicatus wrote:

You can still use Gather Power with greater Self TK/Flame Jet, as you can hover without using an action.

Also, you missed an interaction between Force Ward and TK Deflection: If an attack hits you and the damage is completely absorbed by your Force Ward, it counts as a Miss, and thus would trigger the deflection effect.

You can, but then you're just floating. I'll make that correction since it wasn't clear what I meant.

And I can't imagine anything doing little enough damage for force ward to absorb it to the point where TK deflection would matter. It's possible, but rather unlikely, at least enough to try and base a strategy around.

Philo Pharynx wrote:
One issue is that a big audience of the guides is people who don't look at a game mechanic and see how it plays until they have some experience. I'd rate the elements but I'd give them three ratings. Offense, Defense, Utility.

That's a pretty solid idea, since as I've seen from Aether, it can't do damage to save its life, but it has some intense utility. I'm wondering if offense and utility would be enough for this, since defense feels a little more subjective.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
N. Jolly wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

You can still use Gather Power with greater Self TK/Flame Jet, as you can hover without using an action.

Also, you missed an interaction between Force Ward and TK Deflection: If an attack hits you and the damage is completely absorbed by your Force Ward, it counts as a Miss, and thus would trigger the deflection effect.

You can, but then you're just floating. I'll make that correction since it wasn't clear what I meant.

Yes, but you have that restriction with Wings of Air and just walking as well. If you use your move to Gather Power, you really aren't going anywhere. I suppose you could still 5ft step, but anyone gives up mobility if you gather.


When arguing the merits of an element, keep in mind that you aren't exactly intended to stick with only one element for your entire career. Some combos are very strong. For instance, air+fire+water can bring the fire or cold damage, while grabbing utility from all over the place.

Edit: I may have gotten my combos wrong. I'm off to create a chart of composite blasts.


N. Jolly wrote:
And I can't imagine anything doing little enough damage for force ward to absorb it to the point where TK deflection would matter. It's possible, but rather unlikely, at least enough to try and base a strategy around.

That's because you seriously underestimated force ward as a defense. The amount of damage it takes to drop you is your HP minus your nonlethal, plus your defense. This is proportional to level. Aetherkineticists start out at 1/level over. Spending burn on defense reduces this by half per level, but your stat boosts bump it up. Only when you get to a significant amount of burn do you drop below your original hp. By the time you do this, you've got quite a bit of elemental overflow and you way better off than another type of kineticist.

It also works against everything. Melee, ranged, spells, physical, touch attacks. No other element boasts that. If your party is reasonably optimized at dealing damage, you shouldn't take much real damage beyond that.

Regeneration is a problem when your party members insist on using minute/level spells and trying to get seven fights out of them. If you are looting the bodies, healing with wands and searching for traps, it'll be full or nearly full for each fight.

Silver Crusade

Melkiador wrote:
When arguing the merits of an element, keep in mind that you aren't exactly intended to stick with only one element for your entire career. Some combos are very strong. For instance, air+fire+water can bring the fire or cold damage, while grabbing utility from all over the place.

I could argue that it's more up to you to decide about that, since expanded element does allow you to expand on your own element. Besides, by 15th level when you'd pick up that third one, it's pretty late, I'd say 2 element focusing at most would be what I'd base the class around.

Philo Pharynx wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
And I can't imagine anything doing little enough damage for force ward to absorb it to the point where TK deflection would matter. It's possible, but rather unlikely, at least enough to try and base a strategy around.

That's because you seriously underestimated force ward as a defense. The amount of damage it takes to drop you is your HP minus your nonlethal, plus your defense. This is proportional to level. Aetherkineticists start out at 1/level over. Spending burn on defense reduces this by half per level, but your stat boosts bump it up. Only when you get to a significant amount of burn do you drop below your original hp. By the time you do this, you've got quite a bit of elemental overflow and you way better off than another type of kineticist.

It also works against everything. Melee, ranged, spells, physical, touch attacks. No other element boasts that. If your party is reasonably optimized at dealing damage, you shouldn't take much real damage beyond that.

Regeneration is a problem when your party members insist on using minute/level spells and trying to get seven fights out of them. If you are looting the bodies, healing with wands and searching for traps, it'll be full or nearly full for each fight.

I actually DID state that it would be full every fight, it's just a very small amount that's there per fight since it's only 1 temp HP per level. I can't think of a single creature in melee who would be dealing 16 damage with an attack (the amount this force barrier would be absorbing when you can first gain it), since most things at that level would hit harder than that.

I can agree that perhaps Force Barrier is green instead of orange, but I won't say that there's any viable way to try an combo it with TK deflection without a second set of temporary hit points, since even accepting burn, you're only up to 24 there, which is enough to possibly absorb 1 attack. And with that, you're either using a standard action to prepare for an attack like that with TK deflection or spending another point of burn to possibly get TK deflection on one attack. Again, it's just not a viable combo to me, at least enough to base a strategy around. A neat trick, but overall orange as a combo.


Melkiador wrote:
When arguing the merits of an element, keep in mind that you aren't exactly intended to stick with only one element for your entire career. Some combos are very strong. For instance, air+fire+water can bring the fire or cold damage, while grabbing utility from all over the place.

The guide should cover switching and focusing. The merits and flaws of both. For Air and Aether, I can see enough great talents to want to stay focused.

N. Jolly wrote:
That's a pretty solid idea, since as I've seen from Aether, it can't do damage to save its life, but it has some intense utility. I'm wondering if offense and utility would be enough for this, since defense feels a little more subjective.

That's why there should be clarifying text. To explain what things are good at what and what they're bad at. For example, water is a good defense, but it's replicated by armor. It's useful to combine with monk*, or where magic items aren't easy to get. Since kineticists don't need to buy a magic weapon, they're usually good on money and don't have a problem buying good armor and a nice buckler. (they aren't proficient, but a masterwork or better buckler doesn't penalize you)

*or elemental ascetic, but elemental ascetic should be rated as infrared. You have to craft a very special build get any advantage over dipping one level of monk.


Kinetic Healer is definitely not red. Orange, maybe. While it is awkward to do damage in order to heal, and not something you'll likely use on yourself much, you're not the front-line guy, and any boost you give the guy on the front line is bonus.

We are limited to, for example with my character, 10 burn. But a 12th level fighter with my same HP (201) has 1 purpose for his 12 (or 16, depending on how you read it) potential burn... and that's healing. Healing him 6d6+20 (my current 12th level healer) for an average of 41 points (1/5th his HP) to take 12 tmpHP, is something my current group is very happy about. Totally worth the Feat I spent to get that Talent.

Not something I'd use a lot, but when your team knows you have it, what it entails, it's their call to take it or not, and I find that they don't mind taking 2 or 3 burn before worrying about it...

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
N. Jolly wrote:


I actually DID state that it would be full every fight, it's just a very small amount that's there per fight since it's only 1 temp HP per level.

It's actually much more than that if you charge it with burn at the beginning of the day in order to build up your Elemental Overflow.

Silver Crusade

Sphynx wrote:

Telekinetic Heal is definitely not red. Orange, maybe. While it is awkward to do damage in order to heal, and not something you'll likely use on yourself much, you're not the front-line guy, and any boost you give the guy on the front line is bonus.

We are limited to, for example with my character, 10 burn. But a 12th level fighter with my same HP (201) has 1 purpose for his 12 (or 16, depending on how you read it) potential burn... and that's healing. Healing him 6d6+20 (my current 12th level healer) for an average of 41 points (1/5th his HP) to take 12 tmpHP, is something my current group is very happy about. Totally worth the Feat I spent to get that Talent.

Not something I'd use a lot, but when your team knows you have it, what it entails, it's their call to take it or not, and I find that they don't mind taking 2 or 3 burn before worrying about it...

I bounced between red and orange for it. I just don't like abilities that can cause problems at the table, which can be a big issue if you're in PFS and playing with people whom you don't know.

Imbicatus wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:


I actually DID state that it would be full every fight, it's just a very small amount that's there per fight since it's only 1 temp HP per level.
It's actually much more than that if you charge it with burn at the beginning of the day in order to build up your Elemental Overflow.

It's a boost of half level (which I accounted for in my example.) I'm honestly fine bumping it up to green since that was my original rating for it, I'm just more of a DR fan for things like this. I still don't consider FW and TK deflect a viable combo though.


N. Jolly wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
When arguing the merits of an element, keep in mind that you aren't exactly intended to stick with only one element for your entire career. Some combos are very strong. For instance, air+fire+water can bring the fire or cold damage, while grabbing utility from all over the place.
I could argue that it's more up to you to decide about that, since expanded element does allow you to expand on your own element. Besides, by 15th level when you'd pick up that third one, it's pretty late, I'd say 2 element focusing at most would be what I'd base the class around.

It would really depend upon what level elemental resistances and immunities start to really cut into your overall damage. At any rate, assuming builds are all one element is no more likely than assuming 3 different elements.


Also, for the Force Ward, 2 burn makes it equal. At 12th level, 2 burn means I gain 24 tmp HP, and take 24 non-lethal damage. It's good to do at least 2 burn on it. Big enough window that a basic attack will not really hurt you, but small enough that your burn isn't killed. I personally do 3 burn for it, because 24 is just too small a window, 30 fits better for most attacks to avoid taking real damage.

Silver Crusade

Sphynx wrote:
Also, for the Force Ward, 2 burn makes it equal. At 12th level, 2 burn means I gain 24 tmp HP, and take 24 non-lethal damage. It's good to do at least 2 burn on it. Big enough window that a basic attack will not really hurt you, but small enough that your burn isn't killed. I personally do 3 burn for it, because 24 is just too small a window, 30 fits better for most attacks to avoid taking real damage.

Okay, I wasn't sure how well this stacked, and yeah, Force Ward was better than I was giving it credit for. Again, I can admit my personal playstyle wants to only use burn to pump damage (I am a TERRIBLE player), but I can certainly see that being viable, so Force Ward is green once again, thanks for the heads up on all of this.


N. Jolly wrote:
I actually DID state that it would be full every fight, it's just a very small amount that's there per fight since it's only 1 temp...

I actually wasn't focusing on the combo. I was focusing on force ward as a defense. The smart thing to do as an Aetherkineteicist is to wake up and burn on THP until your elemental overflow is full. You definitely want to boost con as one of your +2 stats, and consider it at 11. At 12th level, you'll have 36 THP, which will negate your average fireball and absorb most physical hits quite nicely. You lose 48 nl, but you get 12 back from con. If you go to 5 burn and boost con as your +4 stat, you're 6hp up in total durability from the start of the day and 42 of those points come back.

Edit: thanks for the ninja, Sphinx. It wasn't until I started playing an aetherkineteicist that I realized how smart it was to boost the temp hp early.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Philo Pharynx wrote:
On the other hand Aether is Orange on offense. They have a good physical blast, but their compositing sucks. Foe throw allows harming two at the expense of adding a save in there. At 6 total burn Disintegrate is too expensive to be a common use, but it can be devastating when you need it.

The earliest you can pick up Disintegrating Blast is level 13.

At level 14, you have Supercharge to get rid of the cost of your Composite Blast and Infusion Specialist 4 to negate the cost of the Infusion. Sure, you can't use a Form Infusion or Metakinesis on it without taking burn (or spending Internal Buffer points) yet, but a minimum of 1 level after getting the Infusion you can start using it for free with a move Gather.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

I'd rate Gusting Infusion at least orange. Yes it allows a save, but it's great for swarm control and it's also got a lot of utility for removing clouds and vapor attacks. At only one burn it can be done at will from level one with a gather, or without a gather once you gain infusion specialization.


Would using Spark of Life to create a Fire Elemental count as a fire source for your Smoke Cloud? If it does, that sounds like a pretty strong application of those talents.


N. Jolly wrote:
Sphynx wrote:

It should be noted that the word "Bender" is used repeatedly. While fantastic for people that have/watch that animated series on Nikolodean? for the rest of us, we're looking at it trying to figure out what the "Bender" is, fanning through the book for what we missed, and googling it until we discover that series...

Please use the class name?

*GRUMBLE GRUMBLE*...my guide...*GRUMBLE GRUMBLE*...call it what I want...*GRUMBLE GRUMBLE*

Nah, that's fine. I'll avoid using the term 'bender' in reference to any official terminology for the guide. It probably was a bit silly to do it in the first place, thanks for the suggestion.

As someone who's interested in this class but has never watched a minute of that series, thank you.

I'm also glad to see you doing this guide. I saw another one being worked on, and, well, I'll be diplomatic and say that vary doesn't work for me.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Reading through the guide as you write it, I am seeing one thing that I've seen a lot with people looking at the Kineticist - taking into account the burn of an Infusion without looking at the level of Infusion Specialist you have when that Infusion becomes available.

As I stated in my last comment, Disintegrating Blast is only available a single level before it becomes a free option if you're spending your move to Gather.

Magnetic, which can earliest be obtained by double-Air and double-Earth's at level 7, is immediately free by itself with Gathering. For non-double focused people, you can pick it up at level 9, at which point it will be free without the Gather. You can then use your move action to supply burn for a minor form infusion (blade and extended range seem most likely) or to Empower your blast.

When you get Chain (level 11), you can be doing a Magnetic Chain with Supercharge and Infusion Specialist to make all of your enemies eminently easier to hit for the rest of your party.

Most of the various Infusions need to be looked at with this type of thing in mind. This class has a ton of intricacies and options, and I salute you for undertaking the crazy endeavor of this guide.

Silver Crusade

someweirdguy wrote:

Reading through the guide as you write it, I am seeing one thing that I've seen a lot with people looking at the Kineticist - taking into account the burn of an Infusion without looking at the level of Infusion Specialist you have when that Infusion becomes available.

As I stated in my last comment, Disintegrating Blast is only available a single level before it becomes a free option if you're spending your move to Gather.

Magnetic, which can earliest be obtained by double-Air and double-Earth's at level 7, is immediately free by itself with Gathering. For non-double focused people, you can pick it up at level 9, at which point it will be free without the Gather. You can then use your move action to supply burn for a minor form infusion (blade and extended range seem most likely) or to Empower your blast.

When you get Chain (level 11), you can be doing a Magnetic Chain with Supercharge and Infusion Specialist to make all of your enemies eminently easier to hit for the rest of your party.

Most of the various Infusions need to be looked at with this type of thing in mind. This class has a ton of intricacies and options, and I salute you for undertaking the crazy endeavor of this guide.

Trust me, I've tried to keep those in mind, but even for disintegration, the value of it falls below basic metakineticist usage, making me just not a fan of risking a fort save (most creatures good save) for big damage. It's the same reason the spell of the same name isn't huge.

Really Infusion Specialist is proving to be the MVP of blasting with this class, although comments such as yours are making me wonder why people are having issues with damage. I am trying to keep track of all this, and I thank you for your comments.

Also got the first purple option of the guide, Wings of Air. It's a game changer for sure!


Definitely going to be keeping an eye on this. I really want to play this class, but my head starts swimming every time I look at it, either in the OA pdf or as typed up on d20pfsrd.

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