I've kicked around the idea of a dragon slayer archetype (as inspired by Natsu from Fairy Tail) pretty much since the playtest. But I'm a procrastinator so I kept putting off writing it. I decided it was long enough, and people have enough experience with the class now to spot any issues I myself would miss.
I went through multiple different ideas of how one could eat elemental energy to fuel the kineticist without being terribly broken, but I could never settle on anything. I'm pretty confident in the method I came up with, but I'd still appreciate any input, criticisms or concerns on the class.
I cannot tell you anything about this because I don't have Occult Adventures. Sorry.
I cannot tell you anything about this because I don't have Occult Adventures. Sorry.
All the rules for the Kineticist can be found on d20pfsrd.com: Click here!
Ok, I've read parts of both and it all looks good, except why limit them to one type of damage. Most adventure paths they run into more than one type of dragon or giant. Also, you want to appeal to prospective players. An archetype should never be a less powerful or useful version of the main class.
Otherwise it's an awesome class like a blaster monk. That they are powered by dragons, they might actually team up with a good dragon. An evil one might be riding an evil dragon.
Ok, I've read parts of both and it all looks good, except why limit them to one type of damage. Most adventure paths they run into more than one type of dragon or giant. Also, you want to appeal to prospective players. An archetype should never be a less powerful or useful version of the main class.
Otherwise it's an awesome class like a blaster monk. That they are powered by dragons, they might actually team up with a good dragon. An evil one might be riding an evil dragon.
The thing about archetypes is they are not always supposed to be as good as the base class. Often times, they are designed to alter a class to fill a role, and this sometimes weakens the class to do so.
The role of the dragon slayer was to fill some design choices I felt were missing in the game. For example, a base kineticist has absolutely no ability to build up a resistance to their own element. A fire kineticist can shoot blasts of fire out of her hands, fly with flames out of her feet and create inferno's to burn their foe, but the pyrokinetic is just as vulnerable as any other person out there to fire damage.
At the same time, the kineticist, moreso than any other class, should have some methods of getting around elemental resistance or immunity. However, the only method they have, specifically only functions against creatures of the same elemental type as your kinetic blast, and that's via an infusion. For example, an air kineticist can strip the immunity to electricity from an air elemental, but not from a storm giant.
Personally, as the creator, I'm biased as to the overall usefulness of the drago nslayer. I think it's about as good as the base class, and better than the base class in certain situations, but, overall, it's equal. It loses out on flexibility and the capability to empower their blasts and stuff all the time, but in turn, it has the potential to nullify the elemental attacks of creatures, and not just for herself, but the entire party.
Imagine, for example, a fire dragon slayer up against a red dragon. She could be a huge asset to the party, if only because she could consume the fire spells, and the breathe weapon of the dragon. IF she's high enough level, she could even burn the dragon with her own flames.
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Reading through this, few notes:
-Why does Draconic Focus alter Expanded Element? I don't think it needs to be mentioned that you can't take another one later, so it shouldn't alter that. Also due to how Blood Kineticist is worded, forcing an element to be selected (like blood does with water) actually doesn't alter elemental focus. I bring this up because it'll allow your archetype to mesh with more things.
-The amount of 'temp burn' they gain from a spell is pretty high, even at half the spell's level. Remember, free burn can be VERY useful, so that's something you should keep an eye on with this. I'd probably say 1/3rd the spell's level myself, although the duration of the temp burn is a nice call, aces on that.
-Extraordinary is almost certainly very high here, as 4 HD for a monster is not a lot. You could probably bump this to 6 to keep it more in line with everything else, since again it's a powerful resource you're handing this archetype.
-So since you're saying this is a full round, and it's mostly a reactionary ability, does the dragon slayer have to hold their action to prepare to consume the element? Like the way you're making it sound, it has to be done on the DS's round, but that doesn't really seem right since they'd rarely be able to consume anything on their own round seeing as they're eating others energy. I'd probably also reduce the cost to eat as an immediate action to 1 if you plan on keeping it like that, as 2 burn is a LOT.
-While overflowing hatred is flavorful, at least the point where I'm reading, it's needlessly limiting.
-Draconic resistance stacks fast, I could see that as every 2 points of burn since you could easily hit your max of 30 by like 8th level or so just filling up your overflow.
-I like siphon energy, it's a good trade off for this archetype.
-Same with piercing element, although I'd state that this replaces the 7th level expanded element.
-I think true dragon slayer is a nice capstone. It's more powerful than omnikinesis, but that's not a great benchmark.
Personally I think elemental consumption as it reads now is somewhat confusing due to the action needed to do it. I like everything else, and I think you've made a fun archetype here.
-Why does Draconic Focus alter Expanded Element? I don't think it needs to be mentioned that you can't take another one later, so it shouldn't alter that. Also due to how Blood Kineticist is worded, forcing an element to be selected (like blood does with water) actually doesn't alter elemental focus. I bring this up because it'll allow your archetype to mesh with more things.
The reason I made it alter elemental focus is because it is altering the choice that elemental focus grants. Even though the blood kineticist doesn't mention it, which is odd because, technically, the blood kineticist has a choice of which element it takes, but then it has a separate ability that forces the choice to be water.
But, you bring up a good point about expanded element. I put it there so people would see, right from the get-go, that it wasn't a 'multi-element' ability, but putting it later on under piercing element isn't a bad choice.
-The amount of 'temp burn' they gain from a spell is pretty high, even at half the spell's level. Remember, free burn can be VERY useful, so that's something you should keep an eye on with this. I'd probably say 1/3rd the spell's level myself, although the duration of the temp burn is a nice call, aces on that.
It only really adds up fast if they're under constant fire of their element. It is, also, highly dependent on the type of element chosen. Earth or acid spells, for example, aren't extremely common, so an acid dragons layer won't get very much mileage out of consume spells, though they could screw up some battlefield controllers who try and trap them with a wall of stone. Oddly enough, in the case of this archetype design, a fire dragon slayer is, quite possibly, the strongest choice due to the prolific number fire spells and fire creatures.
Keep in mind that they only gain half the spells level, so even a 9th level spell only provides 4 temporary burn, which is, between a supercharge move+full round gather and it relies on the actions of the enemy to trigger.
-Extraordinary is almost certainly very high here, as 4 HD for a monster is not a lot. You could probably bump this to 6 to keep it more in line with everything else, since again it's a powerful resource you're handing this archetype.
Bumping it to 6 is probably a good idea. I didn't really look at hit-die per CR as I was writing this (this being my 'rough draft' of the archetype afterall), but as I look more into it, a 1 per 4 HD return is probably too low.
-So since you're saying this is a full round, and it's mostly a reactionary ability, does the dragon slayer have to hold their action to prepare to consume the element? Like the way you're making it sound, it has to be done on the DS's round, but that doesn't really seem right since they'd rarely be able to consume anything on their own round seeing as they're eating others energy. I'd probably also reduce the cost to eat as an immediate action to 1 if you plan on keeping it like that, as 2 burn is a LOT.
Not so much reactionary, as preemptive. They can attempt to consume all of the elemental effects until the beginning of their next turn. Hypothetically speaking, if a fire dragon slayer were to use consume energy and get hit with 10 fireballs, he could, potentially, build up 10 points of temporary burn. Very much so unlikely, but possible.
While 2 burn can be a lot at low levels, at higher levels it's not quite so much of a cost. At the same time, being able to, potentially, counter an enemy's attack as an immediate action is also a powerful ability. I consider it a fairly equal trade, personally. If it were an immediate action against only a single attack, I'd agree with you about it being too much, but, again, it's an immediate action against all applicable effects. As an example, an ambush against a party of fire mages could see the dragon slayer accepting 2 burn to consume all of their spells, fueling his own attacks in return.
-While overflowing hatred is flavorful, at least the point where I'm reading, it's needlessly limiting.
Very possibly. I was afraid of making the archetype a 'no brainer' to choose if I didn't include this. The loss of overflow against everything could be a huge loss for the archetype.
-Draconic resistance stacks fast, I could see that as every 2 points of burn since you could easily hit your max of 30 by like 8th level or so just filling up your overflow.
True, but I expect it'd be more likely around level 10 and above. Still, I don't see anything wrong, really, in bumping it to +5/2 burn. It is only replacing a single talent, after all.
-I like siphon energy, it's a good trade off for this archetype.
I like it as well, but I fear that it might give too much back. After looking it over multiple times, I kind of wonder if it wouldn't be better to make them choose between move or full-round gather, and then they get the supercharge at 16th, or have siphon energy give either move or full-action gather, and then they gain the other one later.
The reason being, a high level dragon slayer could counter an enemy spell, while also using gather energy to augment his blasts. I feel that giving them so many options to reduce burn (temporary burn, siphon energy, infusion specialization etc) make high level dragon slayers more powerful, resource wise, than high level kineticists.
-Same with piercing element, although I'd state that this replaces the 7th level expanded element.
Yeah, I'll be adding that note. Putting it in Draconic Focus, in hindsight, was a bad choice.
-I think true dragon slayer is a nice capstone. It's more powerful than omnikinesis, but that's not a great benchmark.
I wanted it to be useful, and fell 'capstoney' unlike some others out there. I think it really reinforces the mastery of an elemental energy, and how deadly the dragon slayer is against dragons, as, at this point, they potentially capable of tearing through all of their defenses. Especially fire, cold, and electric dragon slayers as they will bypass SR, resistance and immunity, while also ignoring the dragons absurd natural armor bonus.
Personally I think elemental consumption as it reads now is somewhat confusing due to the action needed to do it. I like everything else, and I think you've made a fun archetype here.
Much like the kineticist itself, it's a confusing read at first, but I think it's relatively simple in practice. Thanks for your review of it, and I'll definitely keep your input in mind for future revisions. As I said in your KoP thread, I've had multiple ideas floating in my head for this type of arhcetype for awhile now. I felt it was high time I wrote it down. The biggest hurdle has always been, "how to eat energy, without being too powerful?"
I like to think I handled it well, but, as you pointed out with the Extraordinary aspect, there are still some wrinkles that can be smoothed out.
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-Regardless, I don't think you need to alter Elemental Focus due to the precedent set by Blood Kineticist, but that's up to you.
-See, you're taking it as only blast talents, but that temp burn could also (and probably will) be used with utility wild talents that are giving all day benefits. Also if you're eating an element, there's a decent chance that the opponent at least resist it if not being immune (we are slaying dragons here), so beefing up your blast isn't the best option here. I know if I ate a ton of burn, the first place it'd be going is my elemental defense to max it out (which would be very easy for earth.)
I will admit fire's probably the best here, although the best defensively still makes it the weakest offensively for the reasons it already is.
-This also leads into another thing; could two dragon slayers play hot potato with feeding each other the other's element? Like two fire dragon slayers just passing back free burn reduction? It's less of a concern than asking the wizard to cast fireball on you to just eat it for free burn, but it's still something that could happen.
If so, with two water dragon slayers, the two could always full heal a party by giving each other free burn, then using kinetic healer.
-I still think 1 burn for immediate action feels more fair myself, but I think it's something you might want to playtest since this is an ability that doesn't have instant success (if it always worked without a roll, I'd agree with 2 burn.)
As we discussed, I actually have an ability like Elemental Consumption in KOP 2, although mine provides temp HP (which can be burned to reduce infusion cost), I went with 1 burn for it, which is why I felt 1 burn worked for this.
-A thought: you could have some fun interaction between draining infusion and this archetype, I feel like the two would sync up well since it is a class about gaining power through draining elements, so some kind of synergy between the two could be cool.
-I think you're onto a really fun idea here, and as I've said before, you or anyone else who wants to talk kineticist ideas are free to PM me or drop me an email. I doubt after KOP 2 I'll be doing anymore BIG kineticist material, but it's still a fun class with a lot of potential that hasn't been tapped yet.
I just thought that as school focus used to make you give up one school, elemental focus should make you give up one element. A lot of magic combines 2 elements, but not fire and water usually.
-See, you're taking it as only blast talents, but that temp burn could also (and probably will) be used with utility wild talents that are giving all day benefits. Also if you're eating an element, there's a decent chance that the opponent at least resist it if not being immune (we are slaying dragons here), so beefing up your blast isn't the best option here. I know if I ate a ton of burn, the first place it'd be going is my elemental defense to max it out (which would be very easy for earth.)
I will admit fire's probably the best here, although the best defensively still makes it the weakest offensively for the reasons it already is.
-This also leads into another thing; could two dragon slayers play hot potato with feeding each other the other's element? Like two fire dragon slayers just passing back free burn reduction? It's less of a concern than asking the wizard to cast fireball on you to just eat it for free burn, but it's still something that could happen.
If so, with two water dragon slayers, the two could always full heal a party by giving each other free burn, then using kinetic healer.
Letting the dragon slayer use the temporary burn for utility talents is intentional, as I felt it would add a bit of unique trade off for them. I did not, however, consider the idea of two dragon slayers feeding off each other, or even just one kineticist and a matching dragonslayer.
Hmm... this is a problem, I must think on this.
I just thought that as school focus used to make you give up one school, elemental focus should make you give up one element. A lot of magic combines 2 elements, but not fire and water usually.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The Elemental Focus ability of the base kineticist makes you choose a single element at 1st level. At 7th leve, and again at 15th level, you have the option of learning a second and third element if you so choose to do so.
The Draconic Focus of the dragon slayer forces you to choose either air, earth, fire, or water as your element, and the archetype as a whole forever restricts you from ever learning a second or third element. In a sense, by choosing dragon slayer, you are giving up potential access to 7 elements. Since the kineticist is still new to you, all of the kineticist elements offered by Paizo are: aether, air, earth, fire, negative energy, plants, and water. Kineticists of Porphyra, a well written 3rd party book by N. Jolly (who posted above) offers even more elements to choose from for the kineticist, meaning even more options are restricted from you by choosing dragon slayer.
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-I figure for the 'sharing' problem, you could perhaps have a rule that a dragon slayer can't feed on the same source more than X amount of times per day. It still nabs them free burn, but nothing major.
-Also it'd be nice to see something where you could exchange temp burn for temp HP, make the class a little hardier. Perhaps that could be a talent they gain, "You can accept X amount of burn to grant yourself Y temporary hit points."
-I actually agree that I'd like to see Dragon Slayers be able to get a second elemental focus, I actually did just a single additional elemental focus in KOP 2 a few times at 10th level.
-And KOP 2 will have poison, so you can add that to the list that you could select from.
I love this idea. I too thought of Fairy Tail wen I first saw the Kineticist. I just couldn't ever make the character I wanted and so abandoned the idea.
I like the single element focus, the trick is to remove any exploitable loop holes.
Thanks for the link for the Kineticist.
I just think there will be a problem if someone chooses a Dragon Slayer fire for a character in The Cleaves, someone else PCs a half Red Dragon, and they meet the sonic dragon in the ice room.
-I figure for the 'sharing' problem, you could perhaps have a rule that a dragon slayer can't feed on the same source more than X amount of times per day. It still nabs them free burn, but nothing major.
-Also it'd be nice to see something where you could exchange temp burn for temp HP, make the class a little hardier. Perhaps that could be a talent they gain, "You can accept X amount of burn to grant yourself Y temporary hit points."
-I actually agree that I'd like to see Dragon Slayers be able to get a second elemental focus, I actually did just a single additional elemental focus in KOP 2 a few times at 10th level.
-And KOP 2 will have poison, so you can add that to the list that you could select from.
1) That's an interesting thought. Perhaps a limit based on class level per day, but a talent or feat to increase the limit.
2) This sounds like it should be more of a talent or feat than a default ability of the class. The dragon slayer, if he makes use of consume energy, is already a hardier version of the kineticist by virtue of not needing to take as much burn.
3) As I'm drawing mostly from Fairy Tail for inspiration, I wanted to keep it a single element. I know some of the characters do pick up a second element, but, honestly, that feels more like 'super special' circumstances than anything else. Almost like it should be a mythic ability, and not part of the core archetype.
I love this idea. I too thought of Fairy Tail wen I first saw the Kineticist. I just couldn't ever make the character I wanted and so abandoned the idea.
I like the single element focus, the trick is to remove any exploitable loop holes.
Thanks! I tried closing as many loopholes as I could while writing this, but as it's still a rough/first draft of my attempt, some still made it through, as N. Jolly pointed out.
Thanks for the link for the Kineticist.
I just think there will be a problem if someone chooses a Dragon Slayer fire for a character in The Cleaves, someone else PCs a half Red Dragon, and they meet the sonic dragon in the ice room.
Building classes to be balanced around non-standard PC options is never a good thing. If a GM allows a PC to play a half red dragon in their game, that's his own choice, but it's not something 99% of the players in the world will ever have an opportunity to do.
A fire kineticist, or even a fire mage, would have problems with fighting anything in an ice room simply due to the environment. There's always going to be areas where one character is stronger or weaker than normal, and that's perfectly okay. That's what being part of a team is all about. When it's time for covert espionage, you don't turn to the party Fighter to lead the way, you turn to the Rogue. When it's time to hold back a horde of monsters, likewise, you don't turn to the Rogue, you turn to the Fighter.
This class is designed to fight dragons, but it's also pretty good at fighting elementals of the same energy type and people who use the same energy type as their attacks. That's where the class is strongest, where it should excel. It's the other places where it might fall behind or not be as good.
For example, playing a fire, or earth, or air dragon slayer in the Reign of Winter AP is likely to be an over-all weak choice because the primary method of fueling the dragon slayer, consume energy, will have limited use. In this case, it would be better to be a normal kineticist, than a dragon slayer, because you earlier and better access to the Gather Power ability.
I really like this one! Though when I first read the title I thought it was going to be based on Iron Fist, I'm very happy with it. Stealing it!