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*Glances in and coughs slightly*
I don't know enough about how the scene actually occurred in the Japanese version to form a real view on it. I did see a note above suggesting that somebody may have (intentionally or not) said that it was something other than it really was, so perhaps no changes are ACTUALLY being made. Right now, I genuinely do not know.
After seeing years of debates like these, the only thing I'm truly sure of is that the matter is... complicated. Some notes:
1) Making changes to games costs money, even if they're small changes. Game publishers usually prefer to minimize the changes when a game is being localized, especially if they need the original company to do it. (Lots of localization companies don't do programming, and are reliant on the developers - who may be busy working on other games - to handle it. In many cases, it's a lot harder than anyone wants it to be, hence usually trying to avoid them)
2) Not everything is accepted in every area. Some people want all content without change. Some people would rather the content be changed to remove things they don't like. I think the only want of truly making everyone happy would be to never create content that anyone in any area might find objectionable... and video games are a medium that constantly pushes boundaries. So, in the end, someone's probably going to be disappointed. Regardless of my personal feelings on edits, I can't fault companies for doing whatever they think is best for their business. If you can't please everyone, you can at least try to please most of them.
3) To touch on video games pushing boundaries again, this is an especially important point. Games aren't content to stay within neat lines defined by society, and the further they push along, the more they tend to expand society's views. Sometimes they edit things now because they have to, but generally try to minimize this - and if games KEEP pushing boundaries, then eventually, stuff that has to be edited now might be kept intact for future releases. Pushing too much potentially objectionable content too quickly could provoke a backlash (and do any of us want government regulations on game content?), but doing it a bit at a time could be better in the long-term. If companies have a track record of at least trying to keep content in, I personally try to cut them a lot of slack on this sort of thing.
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Yeah, the content being removed is abhorrent, pretty happy about it being gone.
As for it being changed, a company wants to change content for a different market so that product will sell, I don't really see an issue with that.
Due to watching a playthrough of Fire Emblem Awakening with someone who understands both languages, I learned a lot about what goes into localization, and one of the things this person discussed is how localization now as opposed to before is less straight translations and more giving the 'feel' of the idea.
For example, Henry in FE:A is a more macabre and jokey where in the original japanese he was more thoughtful. Gregor had a lot of changes too, and most people think his localization was for the best.
EDIT: I mean are we forgetting that Lucina and Owain are marriage options in Awakening, but that they're listed as 'companions' instead of husband/wife in the US? Cultural differences have influenced things like this before, it's nothing new.
I've heard a lot of Splatoon's original story was changed in localization too, so it'd be interesting to see what other games were changed in localization. Just know that this isn't a 1 for 1 translation of words anymore, and a lot of decisions are made in how to bring over content from other cultures.
If the original material hadn't been so objectionable, I'm sure this might have been changed anyways without any announcement like what we're getting. But really, businesses are allowed to decide to do what's best for business, and if they feel changing content to avoid alienating customers, I don't see a problem here. It's self policing, something that companies have been doing forever. Not really sure what the big deal is this time.
None of that happens. The scene is utterly benign. If anything all the people complaining have caused bi-erasure (although, as pointed out, she does not appear to have any romantic relationships with women anywhere in the story, just the hero and another man).
But I suppose screaming and repeating bull crap from Tumblr is easier thanow actually reading a few lines of text.
Sheesh, I'm having flashbacks to the kerfuffle over Bully.
Yeah, read the text, the concept of altering someone's perception without their permission is highly questionable. While we can argue that the character's sexuality is never stated, everything about them clearly insist they are a lesbian. So doing something like this without the permission of the person being affected is very upsetting to people.
Not sure why you think people having a problem with something means they're just repeating text from somewhere else. It's strange that caring about how another person perceives content is now something that should be argued over.
What bothers me is the comments I've read elsewhere about the scene in question. The degree of apologetics at play is disappointing. While in any other form of media, bi erasure is the norm, in most discussions of this scene, bi imposition is instead occurring. In other explanations they review the dialog from the Japanese version, and say that since the drugged character seems okay with it later, it's alright, which sounds an awful lot like saying that arousal equals consent.I can see keeping it in or leaving it, but it's the amount of people justifying the scene or saying "it's okay, love is love!" disturbs me. Nothing about this is okay, and then to use GLBT-affirmative quotes to cover up the fact that a hetero dude just magically turned a lesbian "straight" without her consent??
As anti-censorship as I am, part of me just doesn't even want to give those people space to comment on it simply because of how much it makes my skin crawl.
None of that happens. The scene is utterly benign. If anything all the people complaining have caused bi-erasure (although, as pointed out, she does not appear to have any romantic relationships with women anywhere in the story, just the hero and another man).
But I suppose screaming and repeating bull crap from Tumblr is easier thanow actually reading a few lines of text.
Sheesh, I'm having flashbacks to the kerfuffle over Bully.
I see where you are coming from, Krensky, but I don't agree that the scene was benign.
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I'm curious what people's opinions of men who disguise themselves as women to be more alluring to other men who aren't homosexuals are, and if said men would receive as much hate in this case.
Similarly, I wonder if someone used illusion magic in Pathfinder to appear as a different gender, if it would send folks like thejeff into a tizzy.
Given that, to my understanding, the thing isn't a love potion but a sort of mass illusion that ceases to function after a while. Though apparently it means that she looked at the protagonist in a different light afterwords because she saw past their initial gender.
It's worth noting that according to the page linked, it wasn't even done to make the character romantically interested in them.
If you end up growing a bond between her and the male protagonist, he'll end up spiking her drink with a magic powder that switches the sex of every character before her eyes. It's supposed to help her feel more comfortable around women, but it's done without her permission. She ends up falling in love with the woman version of the protagonist, and when the magic wears off, revealing himself as a man, her love doesn't change
The only thing that's objectionable about this scene is that the protagonist decides to not tell the other character about their plan to make them less nervous around others. If we had replaced the magic potion with a set of weird magic glasses that made her see everyone as giant frogs, would it have offended anyone if she was still in love with the giant frog protagonist after she stopped seeing giant frogs?
Consider: McDonalds India has, by deciding not to serve beef or pork, appeased the hindu majority by making sure EVERYONE, including non-hindus, living in India can't go to McDonalds and get beef or pork.
That's right. If that bothers you, you don't need to eat at McDonald's USA -- if enough people felt and acted that way, perhaps McDonald's Global would change its policy.
McDonald's has not only the right but the duty to make the decision that they think is best for themselves. Since there's no way they can afford everyone the opportunity to do anything, they not only get to, but must, choose what affordances they are going to offer.
Basically, McDonald's -- or Nintendo -- has the freedom to offer any product in the market it wants. You have the freedom to buy any product that is offered if you like. You don't have the "freedom" to purchase a product that someone else doesn't want to sell.
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Let's not turn this into a thread dumping on Japan for doing stuff we dont like. Their social and cultural awareness is different from America's. Point out the flaw, encourage what few japanese people you know to discuss it in their country, and move on.
And for the record, the Japanese LGBT community is just as disgusted with the way this character has been handled as well. Nintendo f@++ed up big time, and it's not just American sensibilities they're offending.
I'm glad NoA is taking steps to remedy Intelligent Systems' mistakes, but I'm still not going to buy Fates. They butchered my favorite franchise in an attempt to appeal to the disgusting otaku demographic.
Saying you don't like something and then explaining why you don't like it isn't censorship. What kind of blind consumer are you that you're going to decry any criticism of a game's content?
It's kind of ironic because this is a reversal on the last time a lesbian character was in a Fire Emblem game; Heather (from Radiant Dawn) was the first, and in the Japanese version of the game she's pretty explicit about it, saying that she only joined the army to follow the cute girls around. They removed those lines in the American version, though her attraction to Nephenee and Ilyana was still so flagrant it was almost a "Haruka and Michiru are cousins" scenario.
Of course, then Awakening happened, and Nintendo realized they could make a lot of money appealing to the otakus. "Fixing" the lesbian is a pretty common trope in trashy harem anime, so... therefore Soleil.
Oh, but it's okay because if you're a girl that wants to date a girl you can have the yandere who is just a copy and paste of the yandere from Awakening. Thanks, Nintendo.
Considering the 80s are over and we can all buy stuff from japan via amazon, this holds no weight. I order japanese games regularly. It's not as fun (or cheap) as the good old days that I will not mention on paizo, but yeah...buy it from japan if you are so concerned.I don't speak Japanese. And what happens when censorship hits something that cannot be bought overseas?
The fact that you can sidestep a problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. In fact, it means the exact opposite.
If you don't speak Japanese, you were never going to play the original game, even before this decision. Translation is interpretation, and involves subjective judgements about meaning or intent. Furthermore, in translating from Japanese to English particularly, many pieces of dialog must be changed because Japanese humour often relies upon homonyms that only work in Japanese.
So to be quite honest, a person who plays translated games is already accepting an experience filtered through a cultural and linguistic lens that changes the experience. Changes like this one aren't uncommon, what is uncommon is the consumer knowing about it.
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Of course, then Awakening happened, and Nintendo realized they could make a lot of money appealing to the otakus. "Fixing" the lesbian is a pretty common trope in trashy harem anime, so... therefore Soleil.
Oh, but it's okay because if you're a girl that wants to date a girl you can have the yandere who is just a copy and paste of the yandere from Awakening. Thanks, Nintendo.
Yeah, FE:A was a game changer in the Fire Emblem series. While it did a lot of thing right (casual mode was a great idea), the even heavier focus on relationship building (again, pulled in a lot of fans), and other things...well...
The otaku bait (Nowi was a mistake, Tharja is...um...yeah...) was a step back, and it feels like that style of thinking is bleeding into Fates, especially with My Castle and "skinship." I remembered hearing some people wanted to go even further with it on the development team.
The straight copy and pasting of 3 characters as children (at least Laz and the crew COULD be their original characters) was really sloppy, and does not hype me for this game.
Fire Emblem has been half brutally difficult tactical RPG and half dating simulator since Genealogy of the Holy War; hell, the kids mechanic is pretty much ripped directly from that game.
I had a lot of issues with Awakening (XP grinding is an awful mechanic that has no business being in a Fire Emblem, they should have given the kids their own narrative with Lucina as the main lord rather than dumping them in the middle of Chrom's story in the most forgettable manner possible, Chrom is the most boring of the Buff Blue Lords by a mile) but at least it was okay. Fates does... not look okay.
What bothers me is the comments I've read elsewhere about the scene in question. The degree of apologetics at play is disappointing. While in any other form of media, bi erasure is the norm, in most discussions of this scene, bi imposition is instead occurring. In other explanations they review the dialog from the Japanese version, and say that since the drugged character seems okay with it later, it's alright, which sounds an awful lot like saying that arousal equals consent.I can see keeping it in or leaving it, but it's the amount of people justifying the scene or saying "it's okay, love is love!" disturbs me. Nothing about this is okay, and then to use GLBT-affirmative quotes to cover up the fact that a hetero dude just magically turned a lesbian "straight" without her consent??
As anti-censorship as I am, part of me just doesn't even want to give those people space to comment on it simply because of how much it makes my skin crawl.
None of that happens. The scene is utterly benign. If anything all the people complaining have caused bi-erasure (although, as pointed out, she does not appear to have any romantic relationships with women anywhere in the story, just the hero and another man).
But I suppose screaming and repeating bull crap from Tumblr is easier thanow actually reading a few lines of text.
No relationships with women, but apparently a strong attraction.
I didn't see a reference to a romantic relationship to another man in the article you linked. Nor anything to suggest she was attracted to anyone but girls before the magic powder.
So, no hints that I can see that she was bi before the drug and some that she's still not attracted to men afterwards - just our hero because she saw him as a girl.
As I said above, not nearly so bad as I'd assumed originally, but still creepy.Edit: This may also just be a case where a literal translation doesn't come across well. Where the same dialog and...
From the Japanese side, and you know this as well if you got it and played through it.
She is DEFINATELY attracted to girls. Some say there may be some Bi there (I didn't find it), but she definitely is attracted to girls and NOT to guys in the story. That's the entire point of the potion supposedly.
It turns her from liking ONLY girls and only being attracted to them, to seeing a guy in girl form and being able to develop an attachment to him in that form.
This was also somewhat controversial in Japan. Didn't read what Krensky put at the link, admittedly. Unless it was actually written by the creators of the game, first hand experience is probably a better indicator than something else.
The entire fainting thing...has different tropes associated to it. One is they just are too shy when they are around someone who is extremely attractive...sort of like tongue tied...but FAR worse.
I'm curious what people's opinions of men who disguise themselves as women to be more alluring to other men who aren't homosexuals are, and if said men would receive as much hate in this case.
Similarly, I wonder if someone used illusion magic in Pathfinder to appear as a different gender, if it would send folks like thejeff into a tizzy.
Since I've been called out specifically here, I'd point out I'm hardly in a tizzy, especially now that I've got a better idea what the actual scene is like. A little creeped out by it, isn't exactly a tizzy. I'd say the "OhmiGod it's being censored" crowd is more of a tizzy.
That aside, illusion magic in PF to appear as a different gender, I've got no problems with.
Illusion magic to appear as a different gender to seduce someone is problematic, but I'd have no problem with it in fiction or game as long as it's presented as problematic and not as "seduced in disguise but afterwards changed orientation" either as Gay Conversion Sex or as Homosexual recruitment."men who disguise themselves as women to be more alluring to other men who aren't homosexuals" isn't really a thing. There are trans women and there are cross-dressers and there are guys who are attracted to them, but they know what they're getting into. There certainly are trans women who get beaten or killed because straight guys thought they were being tricked into being gay, so lets not push that idea any more than absolutely necessary. Which it isn't.
In japan, there are actually several groups that dress as woman. It is not just "Trans" and/or "crossdressers" as some would put it.
There are those who are in it as the Arts, some who are in it for a specific type of culture (it's not cross dressing or trans at all...it's actually a little hard to explain to the western mind until they've seen it).
This scene had NOTHING to do with any of those parts of Japanese culture.
It dealt with the idea that you have a girl that does NOT want to get with a guy because he LOOKS like a guy and she isn't interested in that. He becomes a GIRL to get her attracted to him.
Just as controversial is that he spikes her drink without her knowledge. Such things are ALSO not really all that acceptable in Japan. That's not a cultural thing, that's an illegal thing.
It doesn't matter that she accepts it afterwards...though that IS sort of a cultural idea in some arenas.
If anything, despite the change in culture, Japanese ideals in many ways are FAR more conservative than American (believe it or not).
In Gender and other areas it's far different, and they have different ideas in regards to gender, but this game doesn't really touch on any of those in this specific instance which would differ from the West all that much.
I think people culturally understand it just fine...it is as repugnant as it sounds, but there are those who want to make excuses.
Those doing the localization realize that the excuses don't reflect the game itself overall...which is why they are making changes.
However, as I said in my original post, that's where the difficulties in my own opinion go.
I literally hate when companies change a game due to preferences of morality (and I find that far different than McDonalds in India...I will note I have gone to McDonalds in the Middle East and eaten a Chicken Big Mac though...I prefer the US Big Mac to that overall). I typically don't think it should be done.
However, in this instance...I'm not so sure. There were certainly those who were disgusted with it in the Japanese release...and perhaps it's where the actual creators are the ones who are thinking it wasn't such a good idea and are changing their minds. Then again, it might not be...I don't know.
I just know that scene really can be disturbing if you think about it.
The OTHER hypothesis that some have put out there is that the Western Censors are the ones pushing it. Some have stated that if the scene and character was left alone the game would get an M rating and the company wants a T rating.