Fire Emblem Fates - LGBT - Censorship / Editing games for American Audiences


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Alzrius wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
I'm guessing you've never had to question your identity. If you had, then you would know that being told by everyone around you-your parents, your teachers, complete strangers that you overhear in passing-that what you feel isn't real and is only a phase you need to suppress until it's over is a pretty unpleasant feeling, and having those ideas affirmed by the literature you try to escape from it all with just rubs salt in the wound.
That's not the fault, nor the problem, of said literature, nor the people who wrote it. To blame them, rather than the parents, teachers, and strangers who are actually at fault is irresponsible and misguided.

It's not a matter of rather, but in addition to.

If what you see from the media in general reinforces the toxic nature of what you're getting from your immediate circles, that helps build the impression that they're right. That it's just how the world works.

And of course, in many cases the only exposure to some of these concepts many of the parents, teachers and complete strangers may have is that same media.


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thejeff wrote:
It's not a matter of rather, but in addition to.

That doesn't make it right. Literature written by private entities has no particular responsibility to anyone. It doesn't need to offer affirmation to someone, and cannot reasonably be blamed for the fact that it doesn't.

Quote:
If what you see from the media in general reinforces the toxic nature of what you're getting from your immediate circles, that helps build the impression that they're right. That it's just how the world works.

The idea of "media reinforcement" isn't one that comes across as particularly compelling. Self-evident fiction doesn't have the power to reinforce any particular ideas, beliefs, or attitudes amongst rational-minded adults. Likewise, you have a rational basis for expecting your immediate circles to be invested in your emotional well-being; you have no such expectation for works created by people who don't know you, and have no particular reason to care about you.

Quote:
And of course, in many cases the only exposure to some of these concepts many of the parents, teachers and complete strangers may have is that same media.

That's not a good enough reason to suggest that self-evident fiction is somehow at fault for not promoting the general welfare.


I have always been fascinated by the kinds of arguments made by people who are passionate about fiction

Example 1 (generalization), This particular work of fiction is so powerful. Reading it might actually change the way you look at the world, give you a new perspective on (choose one, hope, love, war, large airplanes…) and I have to say that it changed my life

Example 2 (generalization), Works of fiction cannot be blamed for negative behaviors of (choose one, rapists, serial killers, pedophiles, balloon enthusiast…) because art is self contained and the expression of art cannot cause someone to change who they are, fundamentally

I have heard this for forty years. And you know I sort of get it. I mean if I were one of the people in the video game industry trying to defend violent or misogynistic, or racist elements in video games, I would not be using the argument

Violent Video Games do not cause violent behavior

I would be saying, violent video games are a form of art, and art has the potential to inspire. We can study the effects of violent (abusive, intolerant) video games on those who play them, and so far the evidence seems to indicate that there is not a direct correlation between violent video games and an increase in violent behavior among those who play them. Can a video game that has themes offensive to a player influence them? Of course it can, it could have the effect of desensitizing the individual, as well as having the effect of reinforcing the individuals objection to what is presented.

That is the power of art.

Was it censorship?

Is censorship wrong?

Was the content offensive?

Does that justify the censorship?

These are the kinds of questions that arise in reaction to art, and the presentation of art, in every age, and in every culture.


Arachnofiend wrote:

It's kind of ironic because this is a reversal on the last time a lesbian character was in a Fire Emblem game; Heather (from Radiant Dawn) was the first, and in the Japanese version of the game she's pretty explicit about it, saying that she only joined the army to follow the cute girls around. They removed those lines in the American version, though her attraction to Nephenee and Ilyana was still so flagrant it was almost a "Haruka and Michiru are cousins" scenario.

Of course, then Awakening happened, and Nintendo realized they could make a lot of money appealing to the otakus. "Fixing" the lesbian is a pretty common trope in trashy harem anime, so... therefore Soleil.

Oh, but it's okay because if you're a girl that wants to date a girl you can have the yandere who is just a copy and paste of the yandere from Awakening. Thanks, Nintendo.

whut.


Arachnofiend wrote:

Fire Emblem has been half brutally difficult tactical RPG and half dating simulator since Genealogy of the Holy War; hell, the kids mechanic is pretty much ripped directly from that game.

I had a lot of issues with Awakening (XP grinding is an awful mechanic that has no business being in a Fire Emblem, they should have given the kids their own narrative with Lucina as the main lord rather than dumping them in the middle of Chrom's story in the most forgettable manner possible, Chrom is the most boring of the Buff Blue Lords by a mile) but at least it was okay. Fates does... not look okay.

has flashbacks going back to the 90s

last enemy on the board kills guest npc in one hit

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


N. Jolly wrote:

I don't think all censorship is terrible either (especially when self imposed), but again I don't really consider this censorship. I'd say FE:A had more censorship hiding Tharja's backside in the DLC, but again their call. Maybe they did it to avoid an M rating from the ESRB (much like how movies FIGHT to get a PG-13 rating to increase their possible audience), which again, self imposed based on business.

I mean you could then claim the ESRB/MPAA are censors, but that's not even really the case as they're simply deciding on what content a product has and whom that content is most appropriate for. No one in the ESRB/MPAA can say 'don't make this', at worst they can give it an AO/NC-17 rating. Business wise, that's probably a kiss of death, but that's up to the business to decide, they can try to push an adult product and see how far it gets them, that's their right.

So yeah, I'm okay with businesses making business decisions if the market seems as though it's leaning that way. Saying that they'll be associated with certain things from putting out a product isn't a threat/coercion/etc, and it feels silly to see it that way.

Pretty much this. If you want to oppose (self) censorship in games or movies, it would seem to me that the place to start would be the actual rating boards that creators specifically cater to and that stores pay attention to.

And I'm pretty sure those aren't the same groups of people or the same kinds of opinions that are claimed to be behind the self-censorship we're talking about.


Yeah, funny thing about that... at least in America, the ratings board tends to be really, really generous to companies. You can get away with a LOT and still keep a "Teen" rating. (I know, 'cuz I interviewed them on the subject awhile back. Fun times.)

Now, companies have different reasons for wanting to get specific ratings.

For example, there's one group that just doesn't want to get rated AO, and otherwise doesn't care what rating they get (although, when they edit content they were specifically told would get an AO rating and thus prevent the sale of the game at all, they tend to be hideously demonized by people who would rather them release it totally uncut... which is not legally possible. Go figure).

Then there's the group that wants to sell to young kids and generally wants an E for Everyone rating - and they'll fight just as hard because that's the demographic they want.

For both groups, getting a specific rating is part of their business strategy. And, of course, ratings are different between regions, so sometimes content has to be changed to match the business goal. *Shrugs* Personally, I'm fine with the scene this thread is about being changed. It did sound somewhat offensive, and if a company decides they don't want to publish something like that, I have no reason to object.


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It has been claimed that ratings institutes are not censors. How are they not? They decide on what people are allowed to see, handing out death sentences for various movies, with massive budgets that will not be recouped without certain ratings. Over time, they have caused a massive streamlining and sanitation of the entire media production. Not to mention, they work from pretty questionable principles, such as the one about not showing proper results of violence. In America, showing someone bleeding seriously, or having a seizure from traumatic brain damage, or the like, will doom the movie to a very small-audience rating. In Japan, I have heard that NOT showing proper results of violence has the same effect. It sounds to me like the japanese have a far better idea here. IF movie violence is desensitizing, not showing what it results in should be worse. This is, as a rule, not questioned in American debate.


The movie rating boards are not the same thing as the video game rating boards, and the video game boards are what's relevant to Fire Emblem: Fates. They do not behave the same way, and the difference, for this discussion, is important.


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They are still censors, and with no arguments actually forthcoming to why they shouldn't be.


...Because the ESRB, at least, does not censor material? They're not some kind of nefarious cabal desperately trying to strike certain kinds of content from the marketplace. The ESRB, and I quote them on this, "assigns rating information that is consistent with expectations that parents and other consumers have about content and age-appropriateness. To accomplish this, we base ratings on the human judgment of raters not formulas that are written in stone. We also regularly conduct research to determine if our rating assignments match consumer expectations. Although consistency in rating criteria is important to earn consumer trust, it’s also important for a rating system to evolve."

Furthermore, they don't actually get content that could be rated AO very often, because "[We have] been assigning rating information for 20 years and developers and publishers are familiar with the type of content that may result in an AO rating assignment. As a result, it isn’t often that we receive a submission that warrants this rating, but when it does happen, we share this information with the publisher who can decide to either accept the rating or revise the game and resubmit it, which starts the rating process anew."

The game publishers I've talked to have always seemed to think the process was very fair (and, if it erred, it was usually on the side of rating too low instead of too high). If you want to blame someone, blame the stores that don't sell AO material and the console publishers who refuse to allow it on their platforms. Most publishers legally can't publish certain kinds of content, but the ratings board isn't the one making that decision. It's the market. *Shrugs*

And Fire Emblem: Fates, of course, is faaaaaaar from AO territory - meaning there's no real concerns about that here. So what the rating board thinks doesn't really matter, as it's unlikely to affect sales very much.


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It doesn't matter if it evolves, or if it conducts research, or if it caters to the expectations parents have, or if it "bases ratings on the human judgment of raters", etc, it is still a group designed to strike certain kinds of content from the market. It provides no other function than limiting who can see what.

If you wanted an actually useful ratings model, why is there nothing other than "no sex, drugs, swearing or violence (that is not cartoon)"? I wanted to buy a good game for a three-year-old once. Every game had clear ratings on the above content, but NOT ONE had a recommendation as to what age someone would likely have to be to a) be able to reasonably play the game, what with manual coordination, difficulty and complexity of the plot, b) appreciate the intricacy of the setting/plot/etc, and c) like the graphical design of the game.

Yes, as you say, there are other people involved who act as censors. That doesn't mean the rating boards do not.

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