|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm just hopeful that the new ruling takes into account the current contradiction that Brock put into place by allowing a tablet of official pdfs to be fine to hand to a GM to read up on the rules for your character, but handing it to the GM as a character sheet? OMG DEVICE WORTH HUNDREDS OF DOLLARZZZZ WAT IF DROP?Sorry, guess you didn't get the memo. This thread is now about ConProMise (I thought if I capitalized it like that it would look less like Con Promise, whoch sounds like an entirely different con). We're reclaiming this thread.
No more bad feels in this thread. I'm putting my
beerfoot down.If there's anything that I've learned about the MN lodge, there's no such thing as putting one's beer down until it's drained. I frequently wonder if I'm the only sober one in the lodge. >.>
Tindalen, if you need another GM, lemme know when things are gonna go down. I could probably run something of whatever flavor is desired.
I'm mostly a lightweight when it comes to drinking. I enjoy beer, slowly. So you aren't the only sober one up here in the frozen north.
As to ConProMise, I'm willing to participate if it becomes a thing. I did meet Nefreet at Gen Con last year, and he didn't seem a horrible person face to face for the 20 minutes we chatted.
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
|
If there's anything that I've learned about the MN lodge, there's no such thing as putting one's beer down until it's drained. I frequently wonder if I'm the only sober one in the lodge. >.>
I actually don't drink. Yes, I'm the one who brought up beer. I was kind of hoping that I could hold my beer in my hand while everyone else drank...
But before you all condemn me as a hypocrite, asking people to solving their differences over a beer sounded better than saying, "I say, old chaps! Shall we settle this over a fine cup of Earl Grey?"*
If a con gets started up for this, it will be my proudest moment.
Hugs to all,
Hmm
|
the problem I have with this is .. as has been stated a few times before
1 - we live in a digital age
2 - yes Herolab is Fallable and for the most part people know it but they also are smart enough to pick up on what the issue is
3 - if you say you cannot have Herolab at the table ... then how far off is the "No Herolab generated Character sheets at the table" because thats the logical next step and TBH not very far from the mark
we already have more than enough of the "Not at my table" the following are exmples
the I don't like that Option Discussion,
the Optimized character discussion,
the RAW vs. RAI Discussion
the "I don't like you as a player" discussion
the Under-optimized Character discussion
and now
the "your using hero Lab discussion"
it almost seems that we have gone to a place of entitlements where for whatever reason can be come up with you can have your character / player whatever prevented from playing at a public table - Note I didn't say WOULD BE or WILL BE.... but CAN or COULD BE
sure these are all separate issues ... but as far as I can see a symptom of a larger problem ..
Where does it end.....
because every week there seems to be a new thread or complaint someone has with a tool or resource that's being used
and true we don't see a lot of it in practice but IMHO the threat of it is enough to discourage some players past and present from returning or continuing (and yes I know players that have quit over these politics)
and thats just what this is, Politics .. IMHO Politics have no place in PFS ... We have the Rules by which we play by, nothing more and nothing less, so why are we Trying to make up more rules aside from what we are provided with
|
I did meet Nefreet at Gen Con last year, and he didn't seem a horrible person face to face for the 20 minutes we chatted.
Skill Focus (Bluff) FTW!
I actually don't drink. Yes, I'm the one who brought up beer. I was kind of hoping that I could hold my beer in my hand while everyone else drank...
I call dibs on being DD!
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
3 - if you say you cannot have Herolab at the table ... then how far off is the "No Herolab generated Character sheets at the table" because thats the logical next step and TBH not very far from the mark
This is my worry with any further rulings that come out of these continued arguments. I'm hoping we never get to a point where we will only be allowed to use official, Paizo approved character sheets.
I have all my characters entered in the online sheets at Myth-Weavers because that's where I play most of my pbp games. So when I play face-to-face, I just print off a copy of the Myth-Weavers sheet. Its similar but not quite the same as the standard sheet.
|
|
For those that don't know me IRL, I'm a passionate person on causes I truly believe in. Usually that personality trait shows itself when it involves Civil Rights and related politics (especially regarding same-sex marriage). I used to attend rallies and protests quite regularly, and I've organized several protests and boycotts myself. During the most heated times I've had friends that were beaten, or whose property was vandalized, and more than once I was on the receiving end of personal threats. I was often the type of person to attend opposing rallies and walk right up to their leaders and question them to their face in front of everyone else to see. I was never shy, and I have a loud voice.
The intermediary between those behaviors and my activity on these forums involves a local news station, Channel 10 News. They often covered our rallies, and since my best friend and I usually carried the largest sign (I believe it measured 4'x8'), we were often interviewed. Those stories were then posted online, where people could comment on them. If you think it gets hot in these forums, you should see the vitriol that was spewed if you were gay. If you want to see this earlier version of me, and those unmoderated discussions, just Google News 10 and "Nefreet". I used the same handle. My avatar was a rainbow American Flag.
Those debates are precursors to the debates and discussions I have on these forums. Instead of rallying people to support Civil Rights, I've used those skills to rally support for FAQs (I think my count is up to 6 now). I'm always of the mentality that things should move forward, or be improved, or be fixed, whether it's the Constitution, Civil Law, or the complex rules of a simple game. If I ever use hard language or seem unmoving on any particular topic, it's because I've analyzed it thoroughly and decided it was the best course of action to take. But I'm all too familiar with the fact that sometimes the votes just don't swing in your favor, too.
There's actually more I wanted to say, but I have to take off for work. I think I'll leave this alone until Friday, but no promises!!
<3
|
|
I am very perplexed how HeroLabs can cause arguments. It is just an interactive character sheet. In fact if you allow the print out of the character sheet from herolabs you have no reason to not allow the digital version since they are the exact same thing. What you see on the paper is what you see on the iPad just different format. Before the iPad version came out I used to add my most common buffs and print a bunch of versions of my character sheet out with those buffs included. Like I said, what you see on the iPad version is what you see on the character sheet.
I am not saying it does not have bugs, it does, none though that should be cause of an argument since they are minor bugs. I will go back to what I posted before on HeroLabs:
Most of the time it is reliable but on occasion there is a bug with it. If you know the software and the rules in question you can catch it and know how to work around it. In general you won't have problems but when yo do you need to know the rules don't let the program be your only knowledge source. Don't buy new software and expect to use it right away with out expecting issues (mostly user generated issues due to being unfamiliar with the program) and pissing people off. Learn the software first and use it in an environment that will allow you to. That way people/GMs who in general don't trust programs really have nothing to complain about.
Now If they are using HeroLabs as a source for the rules, that is a different story. You just tell them they can't and please pull out an approved rule source. I have done that in the past and will continue in the future. I know that HeroLabs biggest problem is not in it's ability to implement a bonus to it's character most of the time that is correct, and when it is wrong it is user error. It's biggest problem is not getting the actual text correct because they like short handing or re-wording the stuff they put in, that is the main reason you should never use it as a rules source, which you are not allowed to anyway.
One of the arguments was that sheets generated from HeroLab should also not be used.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Steven, at least based on Nefreet's experience, there are a number of people who believe Hero Lab is infallible and will argue that HL is correct even when shown the book.That is a people problem not a program problem.
Edit: And what exactly are they arguing? Because you can't use HeroLabs as a source for an argument, which is once again not a problem with HeoLabs but the person not following the rule that they need the authorized rule source.
But Hero Labs is produced under license from Paizo. They wouldn't let them keep making it under license if it wasn't accurate and correct. In fact, because Hero Lab has direct access to Paizo, that means that if there is a difference between Hero Lab and the books, then Hero Lab must have gotten a secret errata from Paizo, and that means Hero Lab is *more* accurate than the books*. That also means that part of your purchase goes to Paizo, so when you buy books from Hero Lab, you are in effect also buying them from paizo. Therefore it should not only count as a definitive rules source, but also should count for ownership of books.
(Not my arguement. But I have heard all of these at various times, often from the same people.)
*Not helped by the fact that Hero Lab *did* get the Furious Weapon errata over a year before it was released to the general public.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I suppose the issue than becomes, what do you do with people who continually drag out the game because they believe Hero Lab over Paizo, even when shown the source material?
Same thing you do with people that don't use HeroLab and believe THEY are right and argue ...
|
|
I suppose the issue than becomes, what do you do with people who continually drag out the game because they believe Hero Lab over Paizo, even when shown the source material?Same thing you do with people that don't use HeroLab and believe THEY are right and argue ...
There does seem to be some additional problem with people believing that they have evidence. See the post above the one I am quoting.
|
|
There does seem to be some additional problem with people believing that they have evidence. See the post above the one I am quoting.I suppose the issue than becomes, what do you do with people who continually drag out the game because they believe Hero Lab over Paizo, even when shown the source material?Same thing you do with people that don't use HeroLab and believe THEY are right and argue ...
I see this as a worse situation when you're referring to the SAME source material and interpreting it differently. What do you do with the person that continues to argue? It's an easier argument if Paizo material does not match HL.
The guide clearly states that you need the Paizo material. If the Paizo source material does not match HeroLab, then it's the Paizo material that you go with. If you can't explain where each bonus comes from in HeroLab, then you can't use it. I don't see why this is a problem. If it is a problem, you have a problem with the player, not with HeroLab. JUST LIKE a person arguing their interpretation of the rules.
Swarm suit gloves as an example. That was open for interpretation. The GM could make a ruling on that and that ruling would be different at each table. What do you do with the player that continues to argue, and he HAS legit source material.
If someone was using the PRD as their source, that's not a problem with the PRD existing, it's a problem with using the wrong source.
This is not a problem with Hero Lab.
|
|
Here's a side question for those who have issues with a player using digital character management applications during a game.Is there anything the application can do better or different in order to lessen or negate the problems you have with its usage at the table?
!
A lot of the problems that I am seeing have to due with false assumptions about Hero Lab and how much authority it has as a valid source over the printed material. I am also not a fan of buying my books twice. However, the false reputation seems to be the main problem that people have with Hero Lab.
|
|
Which again is not a fault of Hero Lab (neither is buying the books twice a reason to be against ME buying my books twice)
Something that would be useful in HL is a quick report on a character of all of the source Paizo products used (page number would be awesome.) it MAY do this, I will check tonight.
If it did that, when I chose a character for play I could easily ensure I had all appropriate source material readily available.
|
Contributor
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't believe that buying a pdf or printed book, then also buying the HeroLab plug-in for that book, can rightfully be said to be "buying books twice." The content provided by HeroLab is only a portion of what's available in the books, generally just the rules elements. Art, contextualizing prose, even the layout in the books all provide a lot more information (and bang for the buck) than what you get from HeroLab. Even in the products with the heaviest amount of raw rules text, like the entries in the Player Companion line, there's stuff in the books that doesn't show up in HeroLab.
I say this as an enthusiastic user of HeroLab, by the way. I buy everything they put out for Pathfinder (from Paizo, I mean), but only after I've bought the hard copies and the pdfs.
I like using my iPad to play PFS games, but am happy to always carry around my folders of printed out character sheets as well. I need them for the Chronicles, anyway, so it's no burden for me. The only thing that's changed for me recently is that I no longer print our relevant passages of pdfs and bind them with character sheets since with the tablet I have the pdfs right there with me.
Now, a word on the "disruptiveness" of someone fumbling over a rule or complicated series of buffs or suchlike when they're playing with HeroLab. Doesn't that also happen without HeroLab? Are we going to start deciding that people are or are not more or less "disruptive" based on our perception of their so-called "competence" as players?
|
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Something that would be useful in HL is a quick report on a character of all of the source Paizo products used (page number would be awesome.) it MAY do this, I will check tonight.
As of a few months ago HL now does this.
|
|
A lot of the problems that I am seeing have to due with false assumptions about Hero Lab and how much authority it has as a valid source over the printed material. I am also not a fan of buying my books twice. However, the false reputation seems to be the main problem that people have with Hero Lab.
Here's a side question for those who have issues with a player using digital character management applications during a game.Is there anything the application can do better or different in order to lessen or negate the problems you have with its usage at the table?
!
Fair disclosure - I am making my own character manager. So, I'm asking for a specific reason. I would like to make my application as minimally disruptive as is possible.
Within the character sheet of my application, we include a 'Sources' tab that explicitly states that a player must own the source materials for Society games. This is an example. Click on the 'Sources' tab to see what I mean.
I made this in hopes that it would help establish that using TG is *not* the same as owning the source materials. I don't want to recreate this same problem in my own application.
If anyone has suggestions on how I can make this clearer, so as to ensure not repeating the problem HL has in this area, I'd love to hear them. I want this application to support and facilitate; not disrupt.
!
|
Contributor
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I use extra-large dice with the numbers clearly inked/painted in a high-contrast color so that anybody at the table can read what was rolled. I wish everybody would, frankly. The use of "collectable" dice with nigh-indecipherable runic characters in sepia on brown and etc and etc, now that's disruptive. But if you want to hear people at a gaming table growl and complain, then tell them to use a table set of GM-provided dice.
|
|
I'm just hopeful that the new ruling takes into account the current contradiction that Brock put into place by allowing a tablet of official pdfs to be fine to hand to a GM to read up on the rules for your character, but handing it to the GM as a character sheet? OMG DEVICE WORTH HUNDREDS OF DOLLARZZZZ WAT IF DROP?Sorry, guess you didn't get the memo. This thread is now about ConProMise (I thought if I capitalized it like that it would look less like Con Promise, whoch sounds like an entirely different con). We're reclaiming this thread.
No more bad feels in this thread. I'm putting my
beerfoot down.If there's anything that I've learned about the MN lodge, there's no such thing as putting one's beer down until it's drained. I frequently wonder if I'm the only sober one in the lodge. >.>
Tindalen, if you need another GM, lemme know when things are gonna go down. I could probably run something of whatever flavor is desired.
I'm mostly a lightweight when it comes to drinking. I enjoy beer, slowly. So you aren't the only sober one up here in the frozen north.
As to ConProMise, I'm willing to participate if it becomes a thing. I did meet Nefreet at Gen Con last year, and he didn't seem a horrible person face to face for the 20 minutes we chatted.
On the other hand, the only time I met Andrew he TPKed me and all my friends. :-D
Regarding ConProMise, I don't know if I would be able to make more than my annual outing to GenCon to the Midwest this year. If you guys want to come down to Florida, however, I can probably get you into Disney cheap and I won't even try to sell you a time share.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also recognize the difference between having a digital character sheet (such as a PDF on a reader) and using a character-tracking program (such as HeroLab).
Personally, I'm fine with digital character sheets, so long as you have a physical backup available. I'm not fine with programs at the table (for various reasons), and I have turned away players because of them before.
For our local sessions, I bring a physical copy of my sheet. But I also use Hero Lab on my laptop for tracking spells used, current health, and consumables. Course for consumables and wand charges used, I'm also tracking it on my tracking sheet too. Actually, most of the lodge uses hero lab for in-game tracking of information.
I personally find it faster since I know exactly where to find any given bit of information. Which is why when GMing I'm aiming to have encounters input into hero lab for quick loading. It takes me too long to find information in the stat blocks the modules provide. Didn't do so last night though. That was mostly due to running short on time during prep, and it taking longer then I thought it would to enter the first encounter.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have seen Hero Lab cause a few disruptions, mostly from people who aren't that proficient with it yet trying to find the right tab and with occasional Hero Lab crashes that require the application to be opened again. However, I also know it stops at least as many disruptions by calculating bonuses and modifiers far faster and more accurately than most players.
It is possible this is a perception problem. If you have been playing Pathfinder for years there are certain 'disruptions,' like someone pausing the game to count up their damage, that you just take for granted and have learned to ignore. When a product like Hero Lab comes along, it may remove such disruptions but their removal is likely to go unnoticed because you have long ago started ignoring them. What you do notice, however, is any new disruption that Hero Lab may cause. Thus, Hero Lab may appear to be more disruptive than helpful. But personally, that has not been my experience.
|
|
Guess what I'm going to hand them? My tablet. Because there is currently no requirement that I have to print out copies of the pages from my PDFs. (I don't own hard copies of any of the books.) So you haven't really solved the problem the ruling claims to solve.
Still reading the thread, buuut... From page six of the PFS Guild Guide
In
order to utilize content from an Additional Resource,
a player must have a physical copy of the Additional
Resource in question, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of
it, or a printout of the relevant pages from it, as well as a
copy of the current version of the Additional Resources
list.
I go with the option of having my PDF with me, and a print out of the pages detailing stuff I'm using. Which means I have a print out of the entire section on kineticists since I play one. And that for my ectoplasmist spiritualist I have printouts for the archtype, class (specifically the parts needed due to my archtype), the page from Blood of Angels with info on aasimar, the page with info on my alternate racial trait (garuda blooded, I think), and the page with info on the traits from Blood of Angels I'm using.
This way I have something I can hand the GM if needed that he/she can keep on hand to reference during the session, while I can use my pdf to do the same.
|
|
Are you even allowed to do that?Also recognize the difference between having a digital character sheet (such as a PDF on a reader) and using a character-tracking program (such as HeroLab).
Personally, I'm fine with digital character sheets, so long as you have a physical backup available. I'm not fine with programs at the table (for various reasons), and I have turned away players because of them before.
Absolutely.
It's simply that, IMO, and for the reasons linked above, I find programs such as HeroLab to be disruptive at the table.
It's a discussion that has been had multiple times in this forum. I did tell a player at GenCon this year I would not seat him if he was using HeroLab. He had a physical sheet, but hadn't updated it for some time. Luckily he showed up early enough to level his character before game.
And this is the sort of crap that makes PFS totally unfun. Rules lawyers for the fail.
I play to have fun...I've always been confounded by the types of players and GMs who take actions such as these.
It's a game people. Let's keep it fun and not purposely be obstructionists!
Me, I update my physical sheet when one of the following conditions is met:
A. I have new gear that affects more then just what I'm carrying (such as an amulet of mighty fist or +1 chain mail)B. I no longer have a piece of gear that was affecting my character (wand used up and not replaced, for example)
or
C. I've leveled
Which typically means I'm printing off a new copy of my sheet every 3rd session. But there are exceptions. Currently I need to print off a new sheet for Xao Li Quin because after the last session I played Xao I ended up buying a few acid and alchemical fire flasks, some throwing stars as a ranged option, and an amulet of mighty fist +1. Figured it was about time I spent some of that gold my core monk was hoarding.
|
|
That would be in contradiction to what instigated the ruling in the first place, i.e. Nefreet's right to refuse electronic character sheets at the table. His right to do so it was started the whole thing in the first place and now you are saying that the rule specifically designed address this doesn't address this.
My problem with how Nefreet runs his/her tables is this: Nefreet says they refuse anyone who brings hero lab to the table. No ifs, ands, or buts.
I bring a physical sheet, but then run my character off my laptop using hero lab to track stuff like damage, buffs/debuffs/stat damage, and spells used. I can find info in herolab faster then on my physical sheet, and have all info I need available at a glance regardless of which tab I'm on.
From what Nefreet has said, I'd be refused a spot at his/her table.
That's not to say I can't run my characters from the physical sheet. I was doing so before I got a laptop. It just takes me forever to find where stuff like my init bonus and attack bonuses are. That, and having to constantly erase/write HP on the sheet can make it harder to read what my current HP is. I can do it, but prefer using Hero Lab when I can to track such things.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I suppose the issue than becomes, what do you do with people who continually drag out the game because they believe Hero Lab over Paizo, even when shown the source material?Same thing you do with people that don't use HeroLab and believe THEY are right and argue ...
Ultimately, the GM has the last word in a rules dispute. That doesn't automatically make the GM right, but they have the last word.
When confronted with this kind of argument, eventually the GM says something like, "<X> is my call. This is how I'm ruling it for the purposes of this play session. If you want to continue the discussion, I'm willing to do so after the session is over. But I'm resuming the game now with my ruling in place." At that point, any further attempt by the player to continue the argument is disruptive.
This doesn't mean the GM is right and the player is wrong. It means that the GM has determined that continuing the game is more appropriate than continuing the argument. The GM has not only that right, but that obligation.
At that point, the player has exactly 2 options:
1. Accept that the GM has made the call, and the call will stand at least until the session ends. Continue to play with grace and civility, knowing that they have several options available to them once the session has ended.
2. Walk away from the table, preferably with as little extra fuss as possible.
After the session ends, the player has several options:
1. The player may continue the argument with the GM, ideally presenting clearly-worded source material supporting his views.
2. The player may seek out the GM's superior, whether VO, convention organizer, or whomever and address the concern that way.
3. The player may take to the forums and address the issue there- probably resulting in an 8+ page thread that gets heated and has several nasty posts deleted.
4. The player may simply decide that the GM isn't someone they want to play under again and avoid signing up for their table in the future.
|
|
If their dice always roll high, would you make them use a dice roller? :)
(Just want to point out that the power of the human brains ability to find patterns in random numbers is surpassed only by its inaccuracy.)
If I have a player who always rolls high (15+ on the die nearly every time) or who's rolling crits excessively often then I'll take a page out of my regional coordinator's book. First, I'll ask them to roll where everyone can see them. If they are using hard to see dice and still rolling high excessively often every session, I'd get a die easy to read from across the table and ask them to use that for a session or two. And if they STILL are rolling excessively high regardless of what die they are using and people can in fact verify the rolls...
Well, they just have weird luck. I do know someone IRL who can legitimately roll 3d6 down the line and regularly get the stats to play a paladin in AD&D 2nd Edition after all.
|
|
what about those of us whose dice (almost) always roll low?Depends if that is just a perceived "always" like when you way, "every time I go to McDonald's drive through, they mess up my order." Not really, you just remember the fails because it elicits an emotional response. Now, if you have actually tested the die/dice and found that they statistically role a deviation (or more) below the average and continue to use them, I have to question your sanity ;-)
What about people who statistically roll low far too often, but it doesn't matter what dice they use? My lodge has someone like that. It's kinda an in-group joke, but it does happen. Sort of how with my core monk, we've started calling my Flurry of Blows "Flurry of Misses" because more often then not, I roll really low when using flurry of blows.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The last paragraph really hits home with why I avoid Hero Lab.I just do feel like buying my books twice.
I kinda have the opposite issue. I use Hero Lab for character creation in 3 different systems (Mutants & Masterminds 2nd edit, M&M 3rd edit, and Pathfinder). I started getting pathfinder data packages for a Splinter Skull campaign my local non-pfs group was running. And I was buying bundles with multiple data packages. So I have a lot of stuff available in Hero Lab that I can't use in PFS yet.
Actually, just today I finally picked up my own copy of Ultimate Magic. As well as getting pdfs for Dirty Tactics Toolbox, Melee Tactics Toolbox, and Ranged Tactics Toolbox. I've grown to love some of the options in those player companions, such as the flight Grapnel. And Ultimate Magic has so many nifty spells I like using. So now I can actually use them in PFS.
The pdf copy of Ultimate Magic I just replaced was one sent to me by someone in the gaming group. So it wasn't watermarked with my name. Now I have a pfs legal copy.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Steven, at least based on Nefreet's experience, there are a number of people who believe Hero Lab is infallible and will argue that HL is correct even when shown the book.
Which is really silly. I contacted Lone Wolf many times right after Occult Adventures came out due to Hero Lab incorrectly handling the new classes.
Then again, I've also spent hours sitting down and combing through my game books to figure out exactly how I got X bonus that hero lab is claiming I have, and if it's right. Often to find out that yes, hero lab was right. But now I knew how I pulled it off.
|
|
I suspect the point is that, while printouts are an option, they aren't the only one.
True. I've been told a few times not to worry about bringing proof of book ownership each session or the full rules for my character since the RC has all the books. I still like to do so though. Last night I actually regretted not having my tablet or computer with me to double check some stuff. And I was the GM.
Still, best bet is to always carry a copy of your character (printed or hand written) and always have a copy (pdf, hardcopy, or watermarked printout) of any rules you're using from Aditional Resources.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Done, this could be amazing. Nefreet, Andy, trollbill, and three others. I will provide a gaming space, myself as a GM, and sleeping arrangements in spare rooms for two. You pick the module and the weekend. We can record everything and someone can do a posting something. If Bob could make it, that would be amazing.
I will be at PaizoCon, GenCon, plus a myriad of conventions in the Midwest this spring. I welcome any opportunity to meet people passionate enough about this game to waste huge swathes of time posting repeatedly in the forums. :-D
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Frankly, my experience is that players using paper character sheets are much more of a disruption: they have several sheets of paper, nd are forever searching for spells, abilities, bonuses, etc. Also, the constant writing and erasing leaves debris on their papers and on the playing surface.
Tablets, and even some laptops, occupy much less real estate on the table. Piles of paper, books, notepad and pencils, dice trays, etc. all use space. HeroLab, and perhaps other apps, cando all of that, on one small surface.
It is the 21st century, folks. Everyone has an iPad or reasonable facsimile, and the means to use one. HeroLab is licensed and approved by Paizo. No GM should be disallowing any player for that reason. You're a GM, not God. Let's play and have fun.
|
|
Frankly, my experience is that players using paper character sheets are much more of a disruption: they have several sheets of paper, nd are forever searching for spells, abilities, bonuses, etc. Also, the constant writing and erasing leaves debris on their papers and on the playing surface.
Tablets, and even some laptops, occupy much less real estate on the table. Piles of paper, books, notepad and pencils, dice trays, etc. all use space. HeroLab, and perhaps other apps, cando all of that, on one small surface.
It is the 21st century, folks. Everyone has an iPad or reasonable facsimile, and the means to use one. HeroLab is licensed and approved by Paizo. No GM should be disallowing any player for that reason. You're a GM, not God. Let's play and have fun.
I find this example silly at best. I have never seen paper cause a disruption. Writing and erasing a disturbance? Really? So it bothers you when i take notes during the game? Then you better not Dm the confirmation, because the players are kinda required to.
My complaint about herolab is that players do not know where their numbers come from. I allow them to use them, but if i question something and you can not show me the modifiers. Well then I do not care what herolab says. As I have seen it wrong on several occasions. Although the same is true for a paper sheet chracter too. I find it less common.
I have seen some crazy Herolab builds that I know were not legal. I never used herolab, and so I can not say how they did it. But it does happen.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
It is the 21st century, folks. Everyone has an iPad or reasonable facsimile, and the means to use one. HeroLab is licensed and approved by Paizo. No GM should be disallowing any player for that reason. You're a GM, not God. Let's play and have fun.
A license to use Paizo's content for profit does not mean Paizo has vetted that content and insured it's accuracy. While I don't mind Hero Lab the way Nefreet does, I am really tired of people trotting out this particular false argument.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
To be honest, I really don't know that a GM has the kind of control over a player to tell them they cannot use a digital device, assuming of course that it is not being disruptive. Disruptive behavior by its very nature has to be demonstrated, otherwise it is profiling or stereotyping. Just because SOME players are disruptive using HeroLab, does not mean I am disruptive using it. I have no problem putting my character sheets on the table for reference by the GM should they need it, but I don't think I would comply with a GM telling me I cannot use my tablet/HeroLab just because they personally don't like it. Unless the GM can demonstrate that I am actually being disruptive at the table, IMO they would be the disruptive one if they insisted I not use any of my gaming resources just because they had a personal prejudice against it.
The same could be said for my octagonal dice tray. I have a tendency to spread out at the table. I use the tray as a holding place for all my stuff so I don't spread out. Some say the dice tray takes up too much space. Actually, for me, when I use it, I take up less space.