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I am interested in making a Cavalier due to the character style, order choices, and heavy teamwork, but I'm not big on using mounts due to the way it can unbalance encounters with the extra movement and slow down combat with extra rolls. Is there a way to build a decent cavalier without focusing on mounted combat?
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Sounds like you want to use the Constable or the Daring Champion archetypes. There's also a ranged alternative combining two archetypes: Musketeer + Luring Cavalier.
If you are interested in an animal companion rather than a mount, there's also the Castellan and the Huntsmaster.
Don't do it, it's a trap!
The Esquire is the only one without a mount that's not terrible, and that's because Leadership is really good. You could in theory create a compitant Esquire with full levels because their Banner ability is better, but Banner is kinky and situational at best so it still feels like a level 3-5 class.
I would play a fighter, inquisitor, or brawler instead, all of which get much, much better versions of tactician. Not that that is hard, tactician only works once a day with the single feat you choose for it. It is tactical in name only.
wat
I can vouch all the archetypes are mentioned are fully usable and great ways to start off a character.
Don't do it, it's a trap!
The Esquire is the only one without a mount that's not terrible, and that's because Leadership is really good. You could in theory create a compitant Esquire with full levels because their Banner ability is better, but Banner is kinky and situational at best so it still feels like a level 3-5 class.
I would play a fighter, inquisitor, or brawler instead, all of which get much, much better versions of tactician. Not that that is hard, tactician only works once a day with the single feat you choose for it. It is tactical in name only.
If you are so focused on tactician, did you even read the constable archetype? If you spend 1 minute, then you get a free use of tactician that can be held in stock for up to an hour. That is a minuscule cost, and it side steps limited uses rather than imposing them- spam it every hour and give everyone a free teamwork feat.
And considering the fact that it isn't hard to get coordinated charge as the feat you have stocked (ie- PSEUDO POUNCE FOR ALMOST EVERYONE), then I think this is fine.
The rest of the replacements are either situational or near trash (except maybe the bonus against compulsion and charms- can't ever really pass that up entirely), but it was mostly trading out the charge and trainer stuff that you wouldn't use anyway without a mount.
If you are so focused on tactician, did you even read the constable archetype? If you spend 1 minute, then you get a free use of tactician that can be held in stock for up to an hour. That is a minuscule cost, and it side steps limited uses rather than imposing them- spam it every hour and give everyone a free teamwork feat.
That is like, half of what Tactician should already be so forgive me if I am less than impressed. I can see Exemplar Brawler, which can use Tactician with ANY feat, dipping for it. But otherwise color me unimpressed.
The simple fact is Cavalier gets some of the worst and least class features in the game. It's a trap class with three valid orders and very few archetypes that make it playable. Most of the ones that ditch mount are, like the rest of the class, traps.
If you really wanted, you can play an Order of the Eastern Star Daring Champion. They are actually legit. However, you won't be tactical at all, you'll be a swashbuckler with a kinky buff that comes up once or twice a day.
The simple fact is Cavalier gets some of the worst and least class features in the game. It's a trap class with three valid orders and very few archetypes that make it playable. Most of the ones that ditch mount are, like the rest of the class, traps.
I disagree. Order selection is indeed "meh" but it's more than functional as a class and there are several good archetypes:
1. Spellscar Drifter (thanks errata) deals a load of damage while maintaining mounted mobility.
2. Daring Champion is known to be: pretty damn good.
3. Constable has a ton of interesting tools and came make for some sick builds with underused orders like Order of the Hammer or the Penitent.
4. Gendarme Cavalier is the king of one-hit kills.
5. Luring Cavalier (with or without Musketeer) has a very large damage output from afar and is hilarious to play.
I disagree. Order selection is indeed "meh" but it's more than functional as a class and there are several good archetypes:
1. Spellscar Drifter (thanks errata) deals a load of damage while maintaining mounted mobility.
2. Daring Champion is known to be: pretty damn good.
3. Constable has a ton of interesting tools and came make for some sick builds with underused orders like Order of the Hammer or the Penitent.
4. Gendarme Cavalier is the king of one-hit kills.
5. Luring Cavalier (with or without Musketeer) has a very large damage output from afar and is hilarious to play.
Funny enough, you didn't choose a single one I would consider good enough past level 5, which is where the class starts to fall apart.
I remember someone telling me about the Luring Cavalier Musketeer. I went, oh, that sounds awesome. Then I tried to stat one up. Oooooh boy. It is no where near equal loosing the mount for guns.
Constable is cool, for like a few levels. Okay, bored now. Gendarme is a mild improvement, far from the king of one hit kills though. Spellscar Drifter, where is that Horse Master feat?
If the GM allows 3pp archetypes, The Flying Pincushion Games has several non-mount using cavalier options in our fine book Into the Breach: the Cavalier.
And here is a helpful link :)
I am interested in making a Cavalier due to the character style, order choices, and heavy teamwork, but I'm not big on using mounts due to the way it can unbalance encounters with the extra movement and slow down combat with extra rolls. Is there a way to build a decent cavalier without focusing on mounted combat?
You could simply not ride your mount and treat it more like the animal companion that it is. OR if you want to make a really easy Cavalier, simply never summon/acquire your mount in the first place.
I suspect the OP does not wish to waste the mount feature, but does not wish to use it either, hence a replacement keeps things more "on par", but that is just how I took it.
I suspect the OP does not wish to waste the mount feature, but does not wish to use it either, hence a replacement keeps things more "on par", but that is just how I took it.
Hopefully your 3P material does exactly that while leveling through an adventure's career, which is the problem I currently hold with 1P attempts.
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Don't do it, it's a trap!
Mort, I know from previous conversations that you do not like the Cavalier, but.... You know, this a thread about how to make a Cavalier, and the guy has given his reasons for wanting to be one. So maybe you should either go for advice that actually helps with that goal, instead of saying "Nah, just don't play one"? Comes off a bit counter-productive otherwise. I mean, you don't see me coming in here and saying that the only martials "worth" playing are the Paladin and Barbarian*, now do you?
Alright, now onto the actual topic at hand. My biggest recommendation for a mountless Cavalier is to go Daring Champion. They can get some really nice damage out, and you can easily get some good auto-maneuvers going in a few levels as well. All in all, it's a good trade off, and a lot of fun in my experience. I haven't tried the Constable yet, but it's shaping up to be rather interesting in its own right.
*Note: Not representative of my actual beliefs. I like martials well enough, and while Paladin is one of my favorite classes, the others have their place as well.
They do indeed Mort, given the scaling nature of the mount ability, its replacements do indeed scale as well.
Don't do it, it's a trap!Mort, I know from previous conversations that you do not like the Cavalier, but.... You know, this a thread about how to make a Cavalier, and the guy has given his reasons for wanting to be one. So maybe you should either go for advice that actually helps with that goal, instead of saying "Nah, just don't play one"? Comes off a bit counter-productive otherwise. I mean, you don't see me coming in here and saying that the only martials "worth" playing are the Paladin and Barbarian*, now do you?
The way I see it is more like: "I would like to do X." And I am offering the advice that X is better achieved be taking levels in another class.
I do agree Daring Cavalier can be a decent choice, but only if you take Order of the Eastern Star. Besides the awesome theme, Order of the Eastern Star scales really nicely and offers complementary abilities. Your loose of Mount is still painful, but at higher levels Syngery takes the heavy lifting. Unfortunately, in terms of optimization your only real racial choices are Dwarf!!!, Aasimar, and Kitsune. Mostly because the good racial favored class bonuses are really limited.
Of course, you can ignore optimization, but the reason I hate on Cavalier so much is because it really feels like sticking my hand in a briar patch where one choice is correct and the others wrong.
Or, again. Check out 3P. I haven't looked at 3P for them, but some people put out awesome stuff.
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The Holy Tactician Paladin archetype has a no-duration tactician ability that works with any teamwork feat you possess, and it kicks in at 3rd level. I have a Brawler/Holy Tactician build who learns new teamwork feats as a move action and swaps them out as swift action.
The Holy Tactician Paladin archetype has a no-duration tactician ability that works with any teamwork feat you possess, and it kicks in at 3rd level. I have a Brawler/Holy Tactician build who learns new teamwork feats as a move action and swaps them out as swift action.
I hadn't seen that one, good catch!
If you were a Catfolk Constable with Claws and got Pounce, you could Grapple and Pin as part of a Charge, couldn't you?
I don't think so, I think both replace your attack option.
I'd been toying with the idea of a Druid who spends his time as an animal, and has a Human Companion. Maybe Esquire is a good way to do that....
Maybe! It's always good to get Leadership and those first few levels are actually alright.
i had a very fun and functional Daring Champion with Slashing Grace and Whip Mastery. Tactician went toward Tandem Trip. It was feat intensive though...
Sounds like fun! Did you ever look into a Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone to save a feat at the cost of 1,500 gp?
I have a minor obsession with trying to build whip characters (yes, they are always feat starved) and this item seems like a godsend to help with that.
Funny enough, you didn't choose a single one I would consider good enough past level 5, which is where the class starts to fall apart.
I remember someone telling me about the Luring Cavalier Musketeer. I went, oh, that sounds awesome. Then I tried to stat one up. Oooooh boy. It is no where near equal loosing the mount for guns.
Constable is cool, for like a few levels. Okay, bored now. Gendarme is a mild improvement, far from the king of one hit kills though. Spellscar Drifter, where is that Horse Master feat?
You are totally underestimating the class. The damage output you get from challenge at higher levels is pretty sick, prolly the best swift action buff in the game considering a number of orders provide you with attack bonuses to boot.
TWF Samurai for example prolly has the best melee DPR in the game at mid levels and a spellscar drifters DPR on a challenge is equally sick.
You are totally underestimating the class. The damage output you get from challenge at higher levels is pretty sick, prolly the best swift action buff in the game considering a number of orders provide you with attack bonuses to boot.
TWF Samurai for example prolly has the best melee DPR in the game at mid levels and a spellscar drifters DPR on a challenge is equally sick.
I'm okay with Samurai, I think it perfectly validates itself.
I'll actually admit, I probably am too dismissive of Challenge. I never have liked static damage in a bubble without a greater contribution. 1/2 of a weapon specialization doesn't impress me much in return for a basically blank level.
HOWEVER, that does not invalidate my advise to avoid it if you want a tactical game. Nor does it invalidate that an Animal Companion is not worth the replacements usually given to the Cavalier. Even if I underestimate the class as a whole, I am not wrong that the options presented are traps.
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I think you're being a bit strict in calling options "trap" for these archetypes. Even without the mount, the basic chasis of full BAB, 4 skill points, Diet Smite and one of the few ways to make Teamwork feats funtion mean that thenclass is at least legitimate by martial standards. Nevermind the fun with Orders, one of the best "bloodline" mechanics out there.
It's nowhere near as dissapointing as Core Finesse Fighter or Post FAQ Mystic Theurge.
I am interested in making a Cavalier due to the character style, order choices, and heavy teamwork, but I'm not big on using mounts due to the way it can unbalance encounters with the extra movement and slow down combat with extra rolls. Is there a way to build a decent cavalier without focusing on mounted combat?
Yes. Build whatever type of cavalier strikes your fancy & just don't dwell on the mounted combat aspect of it.
Don't be incompetent at (you know, in case it comes up), but don't invest in it any more heavily than the vision of YOUR character actually requires.
Also thinking about it...was huntmaster also called a 'trap' here?
Cause they are fairly good. Your animal companion shares in your challenge, which can make that small 3 attack bird a nightmare.
Even without that, they have options for free dirty tricks after an attack I mean...deafened and blinded are really strong conditions, and since you aren't wasting time 'only' applying an easily removed condition, that makes it a better deal.
I wouldn't go for the multiple animal companions option, obviously. Sure, their damage can remain decent with the challenges, but they get very very squishy.
I think this guy doesn't know what trap means.
A trap option means something that has little to negative effect on a build if chosen.
Any cavalier is a good and valuable teammember. It's not a f~%%ing wizard but only wizards are wizards so stop saying it.
What's wrong with Huntmaster Cavalier? The example I saw in a Curse of the Crimson Throne PbP was doing pretty well, and was the de facto party leader, until the player disappeared. The Dog option of Animal Companion seemed to be pretty good (didn't get to see the Bird option).
You don't issue a challenge for the damage. I mean it's nice, it's just not always the main reason to do so. Often you'll find yourself issuing a challenge for some Order related ability (Order of the Shield really comes to mind, as does Order of the Guard and the Honour Guard archetype).
Characters aren't always just about the damage they can do. If you wanted damage you'd play a dwarven cavalier for their extremely powerful racial favoured class bonus. Why is it powerful? It's just extra damage? Well it's the same favoured class ability as certain other races get but a more powerful version (twice as much extra damage as the others get).
Personally ever since the Cavalier class came out I've been telling people that the only thing that would make it better would be an archetype that removes the horse. Sadly those have been somewhat lacking. I get that the steed is powerful but it's easy mode. You have a whole bunch of abilities that are practically auras so positioning yourself to support an d enhance your allies is of the utmost importance. Then they give you a horse which multiplies your speed to the point where the importance of good positioning is trivialised.
This is why I love the Constable to no end. You get grappling bonuses and teamwork feats love grappling, so you are encouraged to "deputize" other party members to help with the grappling. Order of the Penitent or Order of the Hammer work really well for this.
Another take: you can grab a longsword and a buckler and use Crane Style + Order of the Eastern Star for stupid high AC, thanks to free Improved Unarmed Strike.
Also thinking about it...was huntmaster also called a 'trap' here?
I did not call huntmaster a trap.
I called giving up a scaling class feature for features that don't scale a trap. I called all the garbage orders (of which there are far too many) traps.
I don't see how either statement can be wrong.
What do you mean nonscaling?
Constable gets a scaling bonus.
Daring Champion gets a scaling bonus.
Musketeer gets a damned scaling bonus.
Order of the flame daring champion gets like +2 damage per level to the challenge target doesn't it? I'm hard pressed to find things that scale harder than that.
Putting Mort aside...
The Daring Champion is a great option for anyone wanting to do sword-and-board, even if you aren't interested in being dexterity based. Much of the Cavalier's power is tied up in the order choice which is why the class doesn't look super appealing at first glance. I'm personally pretty fond of Order of the Cockatrice, standard action Dazzling Display is great.
Daring champion gets precise strike mort
Daring champion order of flame gets +2 damage per level plus 2X the # of glorious challenges issued to the target of their challenge.
To be honest i think daring champion order of the flame cavalier is the highest damage output martial in the game because of that.
What do you mean nonscaling?
Constable gets a scaling bonus.
Daring Champion gets a scaling bonus.
Musketeer gets a damned scaling bonus.
Constable: ...that's a generous usage of the word.
Darning Champion: Where? Champion's Finesse does not scale, only Nimble which has nothing to do with the mount, we are giving up armor and a class feature for that.
Musketeer: Only just. And it's nowhere near on par with a mount.
Constable: The bonus increases with levels. It's the usage of the word.
Daring Champion: You don't need to lose Mount to gain a scaling feature. You get other scaling features replaced for other stuff. Archetype replacements are not 1-1.
Musketeer: It's scaling. The fact that you don't consider it better than a mount is entirely an opinion. Some people would be glad to not have a heavy mount with them.
I know Cavaliers very well. Even without 2x challenge damage, they are a force to be reckoned.
To be honest i think daring champion order of the flame cavalier is the highest damage output martial in the game because of that.
Nah...maybe on a single hit but otherwise they are held in check by the inability to TWF.
At higher levels when haste is a given and you are adding 30 damage to each hit this might change...
They can TWF though, with a bladed boot or kicks :P
To be honest i think daring champion order of the flame cavalier is the highest damage output martial in the game because of that.
Everyone else gets x1.5 stat and power attack when they do simple 2 handing. You would be surprised how much of precise strike gets eaten up by that. You have to get to mid levels before you start getting any real traction at all compared to a greatsword wielding barbarian.
Another note- the weapons that swashbucklers often use are high crit but relatively low damage dice- they are 1 handed too (which automatically makes their dice 1 step lower than 2 handed weapons).
And you can't really fully enjoy the high crit, since a lot of your damage is precision damage and precise strike is only on the "next attack" (1/round). That means you REALLY lag behind many crit fishers as well.
Overall- precise strike is more of a band-aid. It is designed to make your style- 1 handed with 1 weapon= practical. And you can get fantastic AC since you can sword and board with a buckler (sure, light armor, but that is covered by scaling AC bonus and enhancement slot for shield). It is a platform for certain styles- don't let the nice big sounding numbers fool you (hell- a lot of people are afraid of kineticists for that reason...even when an archer with deadly aim and stat on a dozen hits ends up much more threatening).
They can TWF though, with a bladed boot or kicks :P
Or dipping Monk for Flurry but I'll pass that can of worms along to the rules forum.
Lemeres has the right of it. The fact that Precise Strike Damage isn't multiplied on a crit really makes a huge difference. Still Daring Champion is a very competitive Archetype and among the best builds when it comes to damage on a standard action. It was much better before the Errata which removed Parry and Riposte however.
...and precise strike is only on the "next attack" (1/round). That means you REALLY lag behind many crit fishers as well.
Wait, what? Where are you deriving this from?
I am interested in making a Cavalier due to the character style, order choices, and heavy teamwork, but I'm not big on using mounts due to the way it can unbalance encounters with the extra movement and slow down combat with extra rolls. Is there a way to build a decent cavalier without focusing on mounted combat?
sword saint archetype for samurai
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Yap Yap Yap.
Look OP you can make a Cavalier and not even use your mount.
They key is grabbing a good Order that does not focus on the mount. Pick feats the same way. And IF you use an archetype, make sure that it just replaces the mount but not a useful ability.
The mount can just be your transportation (its owning a better Horse cause it levels.) If I was not going to use a mount I would pick the Camel cause if I am caught riding it (Roadside ambush) he can spit on them and hopefully make them sickened while I climb off my mount and retrieve my can of whoop ass from the saddle bags. Not to mention they could fight in those ambushes and offer cover. I also like them to carry my loot from the Dungeon so I can take more back to sell. So the mount is not a complete waste if you choose regular Cav. He has plenty of uses still without even taking a feat towards him.
But as far as "slowing down" combat I do not see how killing most targets in a single charge is slowing down combat. Mounted combat is balanced even if the big numbers scare you or your DM.
Wait, what? Where are you deriving this from?
...and precise strike is only on the "next attack" (1/round). That means you REALLY lag behind many crit fishers as well.
...precise strike?
This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit. As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to double her precise strike's damage bonus on the next attack.
1 "next attack" per swift action to double the damage (an artificial crit of the precision damage)x 1 swift action/round= 1/round. Unless you are seeing something I am not?
Now, there are admittedly advantages to this. You can actively plan out your 'crit' with this. You are not relying on relatively fickle dice to get a good hit in when you need it (ie- no crits for the first three attacks, only crit when the target only has 1 hp left). Given the fact that, even with high crit, you are only going to crit less than 1/3 of attacks anyway, you are not experiencing too much real loss. Since the paunch for precise strike comes from crits, you are just shifting the damage mostly (or spending it on a parry/riposte= a better use than just the doubling of that precision damage in terms of actual damage per fight)