STR vs DEX Whip & Trip build?

[Sammy T]

I'm noodling around with Weapon Master's Handbook and I'm struggling between two different builds.

One is a DEX-based Swashbuckler 1/Lore Warden 10. Using the Swashbuckler Mysterious Avenger archetype and Slashing Grace gives me DEX to damage, some nice class skills and, with the DEX focus, a good AC. The damage (such as it is for a battlefield tripper) is meh.

The other is a STR-based Lore Warden 11 which does about 50% more damage overall thanks to 2H Power Attacking with the whip, meaning I can help mop up as needed or harass spell casters with a readied action. However, its AC is lower and has a less robust skill selection.

Both use Cut From the Air and Smash from the Air because the idea of whip-cracking projectiles and ranged spells out of the air is just too fun an idea not to have on a battlefield controller.

Also, both have atrocious Will saves and I'll have to invest in fixing that ;)

Any feedback would be welcome!

DEX Whipper: Mysterious Avenger 1/ Lore Warden 10:

Human
STR 13 (for Power Attack)
DEX 18 (+2 Human)
CON 14
INT 13 (for Trip)
WIS 13
CHA 7

Trait:
Whip Specialist (+1 Damage)
Bred for War (+1 Intimidate / +1 CMB)

L1 Swashbuckler: Mysterious Avenger (proficiency & finesse with whip)
Feat: Weapon Focus: Whip
Human: Slashing Grace

L2 (and beyond) Fighter: Lore Warden
Bonus: Whip Mastery

L3
Feat: Power Attack (needed for “Cut/Smash from Air” feats)
Bonus: Improved Trip
Lore Warden: Combat Expertise

L4
+1 Dex

L5
Feat: Combat Reflexes
Bonus: Improved Whip Mastery

L6
Weapon Training: Flails

L7
Feat: Greater Trip
Bonus: Cut From Air

L8
+1 Dexterity

L9
Feat: Fury’s Fall (might be overkill)
Bonus: Smash From Air

L10
Advanced Weapon Training: (Armed Bravery? Versatile Training (Flails)?)

L11
Feat & Bonus Feat: Stylish Riposte? Greater Weapon Focus? Dazing Assault?

L11 (No Magic Items):
Trip CMB: +33 (11 BAB + 5 Weapon Finesse + 5 Fury’s Fall + 4 Lore Warden + 4 Feats + 2 Weapon Training + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Trait)
Will save: +4

STR whipper: Lore Warden 11:

Human
STR 18 (+2 Human)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 11
CHA 7

Trait:
Whip Specialist (+1 Damage)
Bred for War (+1 Intimidate / +1 CMB)

L1
Feat: EWP: Whip
Bonus: Power Attack
Human: Weapon Focus: Whip

L2:
Bonus: Whip Mastery
Lore Warden: Combat Expertise

L3:
Feat: Improved Trip

L4:
+1 STR
Bonus: Combat Reflexes

L5
Weapon Training: Flails
Feat: Improved Whip Mastery

L6
Bonus: Weapon Specialization: Whip

L7:
Feat: Cut from the Air

L8
+1 STR
Bonus: Greater Trip

L9
Advanced Weapon Training: (Armed Bravery? Versatile Training (Flails)?)
Feat: Smash from the Air

L10
Feat: Advanced Weapon Training: (Armed Bravery? Versatile Training (Flails)? Focused Weapon (whip jumps to d10)?)

L11
Feat: Greater Weapon Focus? Dazing Assault?

L11 (No Magic Items):
Trip CMB: +28 (11 BAB + 5 STR + 4 Lore Warden + 4 Feats + 2 Weapon Training + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Trait)
Will save: +3
Whip Damage: 1d3 + 19 (5 STR + 9 2H Power Attack + 2 Weapon Training + 2 Weapon Specialization + 1 Trait)

[Sammy T]

I'm leaning DEX-based simply because of the skills, the naturally higher AC and the option to wear a buckler to boost AC even more and couple that with Stylish Riposte:

Stylish Riposte wrote:

Additional Prerequisite(s): Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +4

When your AC exceeds the result of a foe's melee attack against you by 5 or more, that foe provokes an attack of opportunity from you. Once you make such an attack of opportunity against a foe, you can't again use this trick against the foe that day.

[Imbicatus]

Smash from the Air isn't PFS legal unfortunately, if that's a concern.

[OldRolero]

For the first build, I don't think you can count your Dex twice with the Fury's fall feat, since you are using weapon finesse to use your Dex as your base stat for the CMB, and also, the description of the Fury's fall says that you use both strenght and dexterity, and hence the extra bonus. Of course, it will depend on your DM reasoning.
For extra feats once you have the build running, Serpent lash and greater whip mastery open reposition and grapple as whip maneuvers, not a bad deal.

For the second build, I will suggest going with Half Orc, as he possess two alternate racial traits that grant whip proficiency (beast master and city raised) and also gives you access to the Sacred Tattoo, which combs greatly with the fate's favored trait (I would ditch Whip Specialist for that) It also nets you darkvision, and other interesting options.
As for options for AWT, Focused Weapon is huge for a weapon specialist, more so for a whip user. Armed bravery should be the best choice, but Lore Warden loses the feature and so you cannot select it. As for feats, Iron will is always a good choice with a fighter if you don't know what to pick up.

[Sammy T]

Imbicatus wrote:

Smash from the Air isn't PFS legal unfortunately, if that's a concern.

Blerg! That's what I get for not checking!

*shakes fist at self*

[lemeres]

Unsure how well you get x1.5 bonus with str build. Core is silent (so default yes due to general rules of 1 handed), Ultimate equipment is no since they made it more like rapier.

But there is the question of whether you can get x1.5 power attack, based off the same logic as monk flurry- the rule says you can only get x1 str, but says nothing about power attack.

I would say the main attraction of str build is that you don't need to spend as many feats to get it fully operational. No need for weapon finesse (gained from a dip that distracts your build) or slashing grace. Also, your CMD will be better, and CMB if you decide to go into other maneuver builds (since hey- you are already getting the stuff needed for a maneuver build- if you take dirty fighting, you can technically do any maneuver as long as you are flanking, which could end up useful; later adding stuff like dirty tricks is also useful when you face flying centipedes with 100 str).

Feat numbers is a major factor of this build since you need to spend feats just to turn the whip into a truly damaging weapon, as well as maneuver feats. so there is a slow start up.

[Sammy T]

I only take the 1.5 multiplier on Power Attack damage as that seems, as far as I can tell, RAW legit.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Kurald Galain]

Bear in mind that the str build has two more feats to spend on whatever he likes, and has more money available because he doesn't need an agile whip. That also means you can pick a nonhuman race if you like, and still have the build online at level one.

[Sammy T]

The DEX build doesn't need an agile weapon thanks to Slashing Grace. In the DEX build's favor is the high AC and better skill selection for out of combat, but it develops a level slower and lacks a little oomph when it comes to hitting things.

I'll probably go STR to keep things simple.

[Sammy T]

Okee dokee, using the power of the Cracked Opalascent White Pyramid Ioun Stone, I can retrain the EWP Whip feat, leveraging the Human bonus feat.

Here are 3 builds: DEX-based Swashbucker 1/Lore Warden 10 & Lore Warden 11 (both heavily invested in battlefield control) and a STR-based Lore Warden 11 based on using Cornagun Smash/Hurtful to boost his damage when not tripping (1d10+19ish at L10 before any buffs or weapon enchants). I didn't have time to do a 1/2 orc STR Lore Warden, but the feat progression would the same basically, just a level delayed starting a L5 since I'd have to pick up Combat Reflexes in a normal feat slot.

Linky for easy viewing

[miscdebris]

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Caravan%20Drover

This gets you Whip Proficiency as a Half-Orc without a magic item or a feat. It is also Adopted compatible.

I don't like using magic items to qualify things that are my core schtick, as a simple sunder can ruin everything. Imagine that your Ioun Stone gets sundered/stolen/etc. You lost Weapon Focus, Whip Mastery, Improved Whip Mastery, and Greater Whip Mastery if you have it.

[miscdebris]

Ohh, and check out the Stamina rules with Whip Mastery. Bumps your non-lethal damage to 1d8 as long as you have a point of stamina left.

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Whip%20Mastery

[Sammy T]

Holy smokes! I have no idea how I missed that trait!

[galahad2112]

I recommend a single level dip into Devilbane Priest Cleric (of Erastil or Gozreh). This will get you Heavy armor prof., and, more importantly, access to the Plant(Growth) subdomain. Swift action Enlarge is smokin' hot. Also, the classic Divine Favor + Fate's Favored is very strong.

While these builds are reasonably tasty, you *COULD* step your control game up with Whirlwind Attack. I know that eats a TON of feats, but....Having a control area the size of a Stone Call spell is NASTY.

I really like 1/2 Orcs for the Toothy alternate racial. Sure, it's piddly dice, but you get Str x 1.5 and 3->1 Power Attack on it, so it stays competitive when you need damage (before you get Advanced Weapon Training, anyway) Sacred Tattoo is very nice as well, especially with Fate's Favored.

[Velxir]

City Raised Racial Trait for Half Orcs replaces weapon familiarity and saves you a trait for whip proficiency. You could also do the Sacred Tattoo - Fate's Favored trick to gain +2 luck bonus to all saves.